Why do special attacks always require you to memorize button combinations? why don?t they simply do what smash bros does? does it add something to the game?
Question for fighting game fans.
- Thread starter themilo504
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It's seriously not even an issue, once you learn the inputs. Motions are pretty much universal, a qcf'll get you a fireball in nine games out of ten. Seriously, once you can do a dp motion, a quarter-circle, a half-circle, and a charge, you're basically set forever and it becomes as easy as a smash move.
Also, the smash method completely removes the concept of option selects, as well as typical fighting game l/m/h variants of moves if you want more than 4.
Plus, that's not even taking into account command normals that DO work like smash inputs. Regardless, there are lots of complex reasons aside from the ones I've said that can be explained by people smarter than me.
Also, the smash method completely removes the concept of option selects, as well as typical fighting game l/m/h variants of moves if you want more than 4.
Plus, that's not even taking into account command normals that DO work like smash inputs. Regardless, there are lots of complex reasons aside from the ones I've said that can be explained by people smarter than me.
The actual answer to this question is much longer and more in depth than I am willing to put into this post. However, to answer it in a very short version...
Fighters at a competitive level revolve around mind games. In order for fighters to include mental fatigue, they require you to do precise inputs, so that, under pressure, you can screw up. Composure is part of the game, and is a big difference that seperates pro players.
If you don't have precision inputs required, you aren't going to get worn down mentally. That is a major aspect of the game.
Fighters at a competitive level revolve around mind games. In order for fighters to include mental fatigue, they require you to do precise inputs, so that, under pressure, you can screw up. Composure is part of the game, and is a big difference that seperates pro players.
If you don't have precision inputs required, you aren't going to get worn down mentally. That is a major aspect of the game.
It's because special moves are, well, special. While it is very true that a player who knows what they are doing will be able to beat some who is less experienced by using no special moves at all, special moves add depth and complexity to the game. Because the moves are potentially so powerful, however, they are balanced by not being one button press away.
Aside from everything else said above, I would say that special motions mean you won't get a special if you just want to use your normals and it's generally more satisfying when you do end a combo with your double quartercircle forward charge super taking half the opponent's health off (love you Labrys :3) instead of hitting one button.
Also fucking them up can result into some funny situations and can even be surprisingly beneficial if you lucked out.
That said, some motions are ludicrous and the Z motion is pretty hard to learn until you get the knack for it. Sorry but what is Hazama's Astral motion in BlazBlue CSEX? Look at the list in game and tell me it doesn't look like a bunch of arrows just threw up onto a TV screen. I've never once pulled it off.
Also fucking them up can result into some funny situations and can even be surprisingly beneficial if you lucked out.
That said, some motions are ludicrous and the Z motion is pretty hard to learn until you get the knack for it. Sorry but what is Hazama's Astral motion in BlazBlue CSEX? Look at the list in game and tell me it doesn't look like a bunch of arrows just threw up onto a TV screen. I've never once pulled it off.
Because special attacks are...special? They do a ton of damage (depending on game) and can turn the tide of a round, at the cost of draining special bar/energy and being punishable if they miss.
Timing special attacks or combining them into combos is part of the skill curve.
I haven't played Smash Bros but it sounds weird being able to do special attacks with 1 button push.
Timing special attacks or combining them into combos is part of the skill curve.
I haven't played Smash Bros but it sounds weird being able to do special attacks with 1 button push.
Smash Bros. is meant to limit the actual complexity of the fighting mechanics to make it more approachable. It removes low/middle/high attacks, long move lists, and complex button presses; and the character's moves are often limited to the most simple idea of whether or not you can hit the opponent. However, it makes up for that simplicity by having much more freedom in navigating comparatively complex maps and using various items to give yourself an edge. So it is a simple fighting games with comparatively complex supporting systems. Trying to add a complex fighting system would do nothing more than needlessly complicate the game and also remove its emphasis on approachability.
Other fighting games pretty much need the complex fighting mechanics. Sure, tactics like positioning play an important role, but compared to most other games, they have incredibly limited freedom of movement and few, if any, supporting systems to add depth to the game. The emphasis is on incredibly complex fighting mechanics that emphasize the position of the hits, a very deep move list, and complex combos. However, if all of that stuff is oversimplified like in Smash Bros., then the game loses a lot of the depth that makes fighting games appealing and so competitive.
Ultimately, Smash Bros. is just a different fighting game that emphasizes different aspects of fighting games than most of the other games in the genre do. However, it really shouldn't be used as a standard for all fighting games because it clearly isn't the only way to do a fighting game.
Other fighting games pretty much need the complex fighting mechanics. Sure, tactics like positioning play an important role, but compared to most other games, they have incredibly limited freedom of movement and few, if any, supporting systems to add depth to the game. The emphasis is on incredibly complex fighting mechanics that emphasize the position of the hits, a very deep move list, and complex combos. However, if all of that stuff is oversimplified like in Smash Bros., then the game loses a lot of the depth that makes fighting games appealing and so competitive.
Ultimately, Smash Bros. is just a different fighting game that emphasizes different aspects of fighting games than most of the other games in the genre do. However, it really shouldn't be used as a standard for all fighting games because it clearly isn't the only way to do a fighting game.
Because back when the genre was founded, most arcade machines typically had a joystick and 2 buttons. Maybe 3 if you were lucky. Expanding that out to three buttons for punches and three more for kicks was complex enough without adding more buttons specifically for special moves.
Sure in hindsight they probably could have done the Smash Bros. style controls with just one additional button, but once Street Fighter II came out everyone wanted to be as much like it as possible. With the three-strength setup, you could often alter the speed or length of the move too, adding an additional dimension of strategy. For example, in Killer Instinct if you performed an Endokuken with Quick Punch, Jago would start the motion saying 'Endo-' and then immediately stop to psyche the opponent out. He could immediately use another attack while they're still reacting to the supposed projectile. The more conventional Shoryuken has also had multiple strengths in most iterations of Street Fighter. Mortal Kombat featured Fatalities as the most complex moves when they were merely a way of showing off with no tactical value at all. People liked it and wanted more. Would a Fatality/Friendship/Whatever still be impressive if you could activate it with one button press?
It's debatable whether the idea of directional motions for special moves is a tradition better off forgotten nowadays, but so many people have grown up with it I'd say it would be preferable to have a fighting game that allowed you to choose between whatever control style you felt comfortable with.
Sure in hindsight they probably could have done the Smash Bros. style controls with just one additional button, but once Street Fighter II came out everyone wanted to be as much like it as possible. With the three-strength setup, you could often alter the speed or length of the move too, adding an additional dimension of strategy. For example, in Killer Instinct if you performed an Endokuken with Quick Punch, Jago would start the motion saying 'Endo-' and then immediately stop to psyche the opponent out. He could immediately use another attack while they're still reacting to the supposed projectile. The more conventional Shoryuken has also had multiple strengths in most iterations of Street Fighter. Mortal Kombat featured Fatalities as the most complex moves when they were merely a way of showing off with no tactical value at all. People liked it and wanted more. Would a Fatality/Friendship/Whatever still be impressive if you could activate it with one button press?
It's debatable whether the idea of directional motions for special moves is a tradition better off forgotten nowadays, but so many people have grown up with it I'd say it would be preferable to have a fighting game that allowed you to choose between whatever control style you felt comfortable with.
And to add to all above posts, it also makes it so that stringing attacks together is made more interesting as well as being able to dictate the pace of the fight. Take Mortal Kombat for example, some characters like Sonya Blade have very fast attacks meant to do great damage over multiple hits, others are slower like Sub Zero, but do greater damage in a short period of time. Now, add in special moves and the opponents speed can become a detriment to them. Moving to fast can mean you'll run into a special attack that stops your locomotion and can potentially leave you vulnerable to a few attacks. Moving to slow and being to careful can then lead to you not paying attention to attacks that negate blocks, thus leaving you open to a flurry of attacks.
Basically, special attacks are there to keep the pace of the game moving, they're not insta wins, but they can be vital in the match and even turn the tables.
Basically, special attacks are there to keep the pace of the game moving, they're not insta wins, but they can be vital in the match and even turn the tables.
Smash brothers is different than other fighting games in victory requirements above everything else. One big special or combo does not pull nearly the same weight as big combo's and supers in other fighting games. When I can link fastest attack into strongest attack and take out 2/3 of your life (Shigen, Power, Last Blade 2 for example) and you loose when your life bar runs out you need it to be somewhat hard to pull off.
On the other hand if I did the same in Smash Brothers you would fly a bit further when I launch you but realistically you wouldn't have that much to worry about.
On the other hand if I did the same in Smash Brothers you would fly a bit further when I launch you but realistically you wouldn't have that much to worry about.
Oke I think I can understand why special moves need to be so complicated, I just wish that it wasn?t so tedious to learn them, having to constantly pause the game to look up move lists just ruins the fun for me.
Smash bros and naruto fighting games do require skill, it?s just that like most normal games there easy to learn but hard to master, unlike most fighting games which are hard to learn and harder to master.8bitOwl said:
Also if the only reason is bragging rights(which according to everybody else isn?t the case) then that?s a very stupid reason, all it does is make it harder for new players to learn how to play, and fighting games are hard enough to learn already without also having to memorize complicated button inputs.
Its just how things are I guess, the hardcore demographic don't want their fighting games to change, just like someone like me doesn't want Dota to change.
Asking devs to simplify fighting game controls is like asking Dota to remove denies, they add an unnecessary layer of depth, but its still a layer of depth nonetheless.
Asking devs to simplify fighting game controls is like asking Dota to remove denies, they add an unnecessary layer of depth, but its still a layer of depth nonetheless.
Why not? If you want to play any game you have to remember a lot of shit. Even CoD has you remembering what guns go DAKKADAKKADAKKA! and what guns go *plink click clack plink click clack plink click clack plink*themilo504 said:
It's in every fucking game. What's even bad about it?
Smash bros and Naruto games are easy to learn and play, but to say that there?s no skill involved is going a bit too far.8bitOwl said:
Sigh, if that?s what fighting game fans like I suppose thats fine, I just hope that it doesn?t end of killing off the genre.8bitOwl said:
Because it seems to me like its memorization for memorization´s sake, like it?s just there to make learning how to play fighting games even harder.Gankytim said:
However as other people have pointed out there are reasons for why it?s there, and it?s not impossible to learn(expect that accursed z motion), so I guess I can live with it.
I think really though, memorizing controls ISN'T an integral part. For true PRO ICE players, it's all about timing, memorizing frames of animation, etc. The only games where controls really seem to matter to challenge are ones with kind of sloppy actual gameplay- for instance the PS1 X-Men games are all about memorizing your super auto-combos, but that's because combos can't be interrupted and supers preempt everything.
Well, memorizing inputs until they become just second nature to pull off is an integral part of getting up to that level, you gotta be able to pull off a Shoryuken or a Hadouken just on command, no matter where you are on screen, after that the Supers/Ultras come naturally since they generally use the same inputs just using say 2 punch buttons rather than one. Or there is a dedicated super button as there is in recent games like in InjusticeRayce Archer said:
themilo504 said:
Clive Howlitzer said:
i suspect thats just happy circumstance. i mean there wasnt any pro level fighting scene when SF1 hit the arcades and started the practice.
These moves were hidden the instructions didnt come on the case and no one knew they were there, capcom had decided to put these fantastical moves into a fighter , remember up until this point fighting games had never seen a fireball they were all mundane martial arts games. and they were super powerful any special would take a 1/3 of a life the combo of inputs to perform them i suspect were to do with balance. and maybe about reflecting there "super" nature.
Sf 2 came along and absolutely spanked the competition , it was an Everquest level event in fighting just how advanced and better than anything else we had seen before. and it ofc carried over its predecessors ways. well without the pressure sensitive punch pads /mourn. its success pretty much established it as the go to format for all fighting games since.