Question for people Pro-guns....

[krazykidd]

Yep this thread had to get posted.

Spoiler

Although it only occurred to me after reading some of the pro-gun Americans responses in comments sections/threads to you-know-what

The question is this: I live in the UK, where firearms are illegal, even the police do not have them, and the rate of gun crime is SIGNIFICANTLY lower than gun crime in the US. I have not even heard what a gun shot sounds like outside of TV and video games - think of that. With this being a fact, how can you people who are pro-guns; that don't like the idea of guns being made illegal, even rationalise why it would be a bad thing?

The only reason for thinking guns are needed, as far as I can tell, is if you think you need to kill somebody for some reason with them.

Captcha: hunky-dory

I <3 Captcha's irony.

Well obviously gun crimes will be lower since guns are illegal in the UK . But that doesn't mean crimes will be lower .

See that isn't an interesting comparaison . An interesting comparaison would be , "crimes resulting in death" in the US and "crimes resulting in death" in the UK. So what % of crimes in both areas result in at least 1 death . The methode is irrelevant . Is the crime rate really lower? Or are the methodes of commiting crimes different?

I don't think a gun crime is worst than a "knife crime" . If someone dies , someone dies . Rule of thumb , if someone wants someone else death , they will do it whatever the means . Sure guns make it slightly easier , but it doesn't mean if guns were illegal , people wouldn't die . Not to mention that real criminals will be able to get guns anyways.

Also take into consideration the amount of people living in the area . The more people living in a country , the more likely there is to be crimes . There is a bigger chance that the number of people that gets killed in a country with 50 million inhabitants is higher than one with 10 million. Althought you cannot neglect the fact that are many factors that affects the crimerate , like poverty for example .

 

[Hazy992]

snip

Well according to Wikipedia the homicide rate for the UK is lower (1.23 per 100,000 people) compared to the US (4.8 per 100,000 people)

Source [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate]

 

[applesandoranges]

edit

 

[ErwinGodfrey]

Yep this thread had to get posted.

Spoiler

Although it only occurred to me after reading some of the pro-gun Americans responses in comments sections/threads to you-know-what

The question is this: I live in the UK, where firearms are illegal, even the police do not have them, and the rate of gun crime is SIGNIFICANTLY lower than gun crime in the US. I have not even heard what a gun shot sounds like outside of TV and video games - think of that. With this being a fact, how can you people who are pro-guns; that don't like the idea of guns being made illegal, even rationalise why it would be a bad thing?

The only reason for thinking guns are needed, as far as I can tell, is if you think you need to kill somebody for some reason with them.

Captcha: hunky-dory

I <3 Captcha's irony.

Of course they have guns, they wouldn't have been able to shoot that drug dealing gangster if they didn't. I also wouldn't be one to brag about the British law enforcement, considering how powerless they were in stopping last years rioting from going on for three days strait. I wouldn't argue that America has a very large violent crime rate for a developed state, but I wouldn't argue that gun-laws affect that rate, considering we allow all sorts of weapons in Canada and we have some of the lowest violent crime rates in the world.

 

[BrassButtons]

I have not even heard what a gun shot sounds like outside of TV and video games - think of that.

That's really nothing special. Many Americans have never personally heard a gunshot either (if you exclude black powder rifles, I've never heard a gunshot that wasn't on TV or in a game either).

The only reason for thinking guns are needed, as far as I can tell, is if you think you need to kill somebody for some reason with them.

Or if they shoot competitively (I know someone who does this--she almost went to the Olympics). Or they have wild animals to deal with. Or they do reenacting. Or they collect them. Or they like to take them apart and fix them, then give them to members of the other groups. Or they're hunters.

 

[J Tyran]

I'm in Northern Ireland, would just like to point out we're in the UK too, most households I know have at least one firearm (we have 8), our police all get firearms, even traffic stops involve MP5's and G3's.

The illegality of weapons didn't stop paramilitaries getting their hands on enough firepower to force the army to be very careful about how they moved around the country, by air and ground.

I'll concede we do have to be considered an anomaly when weighing certain statistics though.

You raise an interesting point I will elaborate on for people who might not be aware of the implications and effects the conflict in Northern Ireland had for UK gun crime. Criminal syndicates set up lengthy and elaborate supply chains through eastern Europe and the mainland UK in order to provide weapons for the paramilitaries on both sides.

The first effect was the gradual trickle of some of the weapons intended for Northern Ireland ending up on British streets, the second more serious effect was after the ceasefire. Paramilitaries stopped stockpiling firearms, the guns that where once destined for NI where now all ending up in the hands of criminals.

It took a long time for that supply to be broken up, luckily now most guns in the hands of criminals are either stolen from legal owners or converted replicas and reactivated decommissioned guns.

 

[Risingblade]

Yeah outlaw guns cause we all know how criminals just love to follow the law...

That works for you in the UK great, but don't assume it would work here too. We're just too different.

 

[spectrenihlus]

Because freedom, that's why.

 

[Arakasi]

My stance on gun control is as follows:
It is probably better to not have guns avaliable to everyone in a society, though to try remove that from a society that has it, would be folly.

 

[matrix3509]

Also, how does making guns illegal stop CRIMINALS from getting them? Really, I'm dying to know.

Because they're, you know, illegal. That means you can't buy them without the right underworld connections and a shitload of money.

Generally only the big criminals can afford firearms, and those that do don't use them against the public, because after that the entire police force will be after them, and they've just wasted something worth ? 3000+ on a lousy robbery that brings in ? 10-50. Criminals are commercially oriented people; if it's not profitable, they won't do it.

Yes because criminal really care about doing illegal things. I'm just going to assume you are being intentionally disingenuous here, its better for my own sanity that way. The fact here which you so willfully ignored is that if a criminal wants a gun badly enough a law isn't going to stop them. That you think criminals only care about money is as ludicrous as it is false.

 

[Lilani]

With this being a fact, how can you people who are pro-guns; that don't like the idea of guns being made illegal, even rationalise why it would be a bad thing?

Different strokes for different folks. Or in this case, different laws for different cultures. America has more guns than people, in other words over 300,000,000. And I don't believe that includes illegally possessed ones. That would be a lot of guns to try and take out of society, given people don't just hide them, or the black market buys up several million to keep themselves perpetually stocked and ready to serve a wave of new customers.

Thinking about America, would that be a good thing? What works for Europe works fine, but things are a bit different here. We already have a lot of guns, a huge part of the economy is dedicated to it, it won't stop people who truly want to cause harm with guns from getting them, and it won't curb people's desire to harm themselves or others. Teen wants to commit suicide? A bottle of pills works just as well as a gun. Crazy person wants to kill a lot of people? Plenty of improvised explosive devices, or a thriving post-ban black market.

Again, what works for other people works, nobody is denying that. But trying to get rid of guns in America would cause more trouble than it's worth. More lives would be lost, and more would be made unsafe than made safe.

 

[Lunar Templar]

snip

a few people have already said it, but I'm a be some what less subtle about it

"your not an American, you wouldn't understand"

we are despite similar languages, TOTALLY different groups of people. its kinda hard wired into every thing.

that's one reason anyway

another is, it won't change anything. you can take away guns, and as one would expect, gun crime will dip, but the crime rate it self won't change, they will just find other ways to kill people.

sides, dosen't the UK have an over all higher crime rate then the US? fix your own country before you ***** at mine

 

[Lilani]

Because they're, you know, illegal. That means you can't buy them without the right underworld connections and a shitload of money.

Drugs are also illegal, but very easy to obtain. Illegal &#8800; difficult to obtain, or even expensive. If there's a demand for something, somebody will fill it. Like with drugs, guns aren't something you're just going to ban away in the US. There's enough of a demand that people who want guns will always have them, because they will always have a means of getting them. The question isn't whether or not they're going to get them, it's how.

 

[maddawg IAJI]

The only reason for thinking guns are needed, as far as I can tell, is if you think you need to kill somebody for some reason with them.

Captcha: hunky-dory

I <3 Captcha's irony.

That's kinda WHY we have the 2nd Amendment. An Armed population exists to protect against the threat of military or governmental take over of the country (Keep in mind that, its really not uncommon for a military to take over a country that had recently gone through a revolution. Just look at Egypt)

What a lot of non-U.S. posters don't understand is that we cannot make firearms illegal. It is almost impossible for us to do so. We have a federal amendment in the bill of rights (2nd Amendment:Right to bear arms) and for those of you who don't know what the bill of rights is, its essentially the first ten amendments of the U.S. Constitution. The Bill of Rights was created because anti-federalists (Those who opposed the drafting of the Constitution because they felt it gave the Federal Government too much power) pretty much demanded it before they would vote and pass the whole constitution (Which included the Branches of government and how the process would work.) We cannot repeal amendments. We can only add in another Amendment that repeals the previous one (For example, the 21st Amendment repealed 18th Amendment) and it requires a CRAZY AMOUNT of support to pass. It would be impossible to get all the support needed to stop the 2nd Amendment, let alone one attached to such an early document of the US. So for those of you preaching for making gun ownership in the US illegal, just stop. Its not gonna happen with the way the US government works right now and if it does happen, its gonna be because we decided to stop using the Constitution, and given how many people cling to that thing likes its their mother's tit, its not gonna happen for several generations.

So can we stop beating the dead horse?

 

[moopig66]

Handguns can, and often are, used to not hunt, but protect one's self from dangerous animals in the US, we are a HUGE landmass that has large areas of wilderness. Bears, cougars, mountain lions, Bigfoot are ALL completely real dangers in states like Alaska, Montana, Wyoming, so on. However there are no packs of wild wolfs in Atlanta or New York, so im stressed to find a reason why someone in an urban setting would need a handgun.

Automatic weapons are another thing entirely, who NEEDS them?? You cant use them to hunt, (i know, i hunt) there entire purpose for being is to kill people. That is unless you have a real squirrel problem on your property and want to take them all out with one go.

 

[orangeban]

I think the important difference is that in Britain ordinary cops don't carry guns. This is very important, because that means ordinary criminals don't carry guns either.

Why? Well, you only really need guns if your opposition is also packing guns, and if that's not the case then guns just cause problems.

-Being caught with a gun is going to get you in more trouble.
-The Police will call in the heavier stuff, it's more likely you'll get caught or even killed.
-Guns are expensive and difficult to get hold of.

So since most cops don't have guns, most criminals don't use guns either.

However, I don't think taking away cops guns in the States would solve this, you're too far gone. Not sure what would solve your gun troubles US, sorry 'bout that.

 

[FFHAuthor]

Oh look, it's this thread again with the old 'I live in the UK and blah, blah, blah, we're safer here without guns!' argument that keeps getting trotted out. Or, the 'I live in (insert European country here) and we're safer without guns!'.

I always love these arguments that get trotted out, where they talk about how people are safer in countries without guns, saying that places like the UK is safer (it's not) and that European countries have lower crime rates...

Let's ignore how these countries approach policing, let's ignore how these countries approach crime and punishment, let's ignore how these countries differ culturally, let's ignore how these countries function as societies and what historical precedents they have, let's ignore population and income, let's ignore social structure and how people live, and let's just focus on firearms (but ignore the cultural context when speaking of them, just the presence of guns and not how people in the country have interacted with guns)

That's like a real-estate agent deciding that nobody want's to see an advertised house because of the peeling paint on the window sill and ignoring the Ebola outbreak next door and the volcano erupting down the street.

 

[marfin_]

Good point, also I would like to add that countries like Switzerland have a very low gun crime rate per 100,000 people compared to the U.S. and both have gun laws that allow citizen to carry firearms, and if you look at Switzerland's laws the actually require able bodied men between the age of 18 and 28 to own a gun (part of their citizen militia program). And then there is Mexico which actually has a more restrictive gun law for citizens and it's rate of homicidal incidents that involve guns is almost double the U.S.! There is such a fluctuation between the different statistics that you cannot possibly say that the only factor between these rates is the availability of weapons!

 

[marfin_]

Oh look, it's this thread again with the old 'I live in the UK and blah, blah, blah, we're safer here without guns!' argument that keeps getting trotted out. Or, the 'I live in (insert European country here) and we're safer without guns!'.

I always love these arguments that get trotted out, where they talk about how people are safer in countries without guns, saying that places like the UK is safer (it's not) and that European countries have lower crime rates...

Let's ignore how these countries approach policing, let's ignore how these countries approach crime and punishment, let's ignore how these countries differ culturally, let's ignore how these countries function as societies and what historical precedents they have, let's ignore population and income, let's ignore social structure and how people live, and let's just focus on firearms (but ignore the cultural context when speaking of them, just the presence of guns and not how people in the country have interacted with guns)

That's like a real-estate agent deciding that nobody want's to see an advertised house because of the peeling paint on the window sill and ignoring the Ebola outbreak next door and the volcano erupting down the street.

Good point, also I would like to add that countries like Switzerland have a very low gun crime rate per 100,000 people compared to the U.S. and both have gun laws that allow citizen to carry firearms, and if you look at Switzerland's laws the actually require able bodied men between the age of 18 and 28 to own a gun (part of their citizen militia program). And then there is Mexico which actually has a more restrictive gun law for citizens and it's rate of homicidal incidents that involve guns is almost double the U.S.! There is such a fluctuation between the different statistics that you cannot possibly say that the only factor between these rates is the availability of weapons!

lol, I posted twice I am such a noob...

 

[chadachada123]

Yep this thread had to get posted.

Spoiler

Although it only occurred to me after reading some of the pro-gun Americans responses in comments sections/threads to you-know-what

The question is this: I live in the UK, where firearms are illegal, even the police do not have them, and the rate of gun crime is SIGNIFICANTLY lower than gun crime in the US. I have not even heard what a gun shot sounds like outside of TV and video games - think of that. With this being a fact, how can you people who are pro-guns; that don't like the idea of guns being made illegal, even rationalise why it would be a bad thing?

The only reason for thinking guns are needed, as far as I can tell, is if you think you need to kill somebody for some reason with them.)

Oh for the love of-

Switzerland has private gun ownership and a very high rate of gun ownership, but they have one of the lowest crime rates in the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Switzerland

The reason for this and for countries like the UK being so low is because the gang presence is basically non-existent there.

In the US, there is horrible, horrible crime in the cities, where criminals ILLEGALLY own their guns. The only protection from these gangs are personal firearms.

People who buy their guns legally in fact, are five times less likely to commit a felony than the average citizen.

Now, as far as your personal statement that only killers would want to buy a gun, I want to buy a gun for protection from killers or robbers, who, as said above, almost definitely got their guns illegally to begin with.

If Britain had anywhere near the gang presence that the US has, Britain would be in shambles right now, or would be a much worse military-controlled police state in order to fight back against these thugs.

Edit: While I'm freaking typing out this stuff about Switzerland, I end up getting ninja'd. Damn.