Question for people Pro-guns....

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BringBackBuck

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spartan231490 said:
A person in the US is about 42 times more likely to protect themselves with a firearm than to die because of one. Excluding suicide, a person is about 125 times more likely to defend themselves with a firearm than they are to die because of one.
http://gunowners.org/fs0404.htm
The most recent data I could find was:
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr59/nvsr59_10.pdf
Firearm?In 2008, 31,593 persons died from firearm injuries in the United States

Are you suggesting that guns are used in self defence 1.4 million times per year?

This means either
a) guns are used as "self defence" in situations which aren't life threatening (which was exactly my point above - I would rather be in the UK where you are more likely to get in a fist fight, but because people don't have guns no-one dies).
or b) those situations were life threatening, in which case the default homicide rate in the US is 195 per hundred thousand (42 times higher than the 4.55/100,000 rate). In which case, I'll shut the fuck up because I have no comprehension of what it is like to live in a country that violent, and if I lived in a country like that I'd probably buy a gun too.
 

Thaluikhain

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spartan231490 said:
Shout out to any Australians on the forum, you might want to consider writing your politicians and asking them to re-legalize firearm ownership and use for self defense: * Australia: Readers of the USA Today newspaper discovered in 2002 that, "Since Australia's 1996 laws banning most guns and making it a crime to use a gun defensively, armed robberies rose by 51%, unarmed robberies by 37%, assaults by 24% and kidnappings by 43%. While murders fell by 3%, manslaughter rose by 16%." From the same primary source as above, if you want to fact check it.
This is one of the reasons Australians often really dislike US gun advocates, there are a lot of them that like presented misleading statistics or outright lies about Australia to encourage support for Australian gun ownership for political points.

Firstly, it isn't a crime in Australia to use a gun defensively, and most guns are restricted, not banned. This has always been the case.

Secondly, looking at actual statistics, which the exception of assault, there isn't such a dramatic increase, most crimes remained more or less static. There was a spike in robberies in 2001, though.

http://www.aic.gov.au/statistics/violent%20crime.aspx

Thirdly, the reason that gun restrictions could be so easily put into place in Australia is that the Australian populace generally supported it because they didn't have many firearms anyway. Firearms were restricted before 1996 as it was, there was no sudden change.

Fourth, last year, the number of privately owned firearms in Australia increased beyond the number of privately owned firearms just before the buyback in 1997 anyway.
 

spartan231490

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BringBackBuck said:
spartan231490 said:
A person in the US is about 42 times more likely to protect themselves with a firearm than to die because of one. Excluding suicide, a person is about 125 times more likely to defend themselves with a firearm than they are to die because of one.
http://gunowners.org/fs0404.htm
The most recent data I could find was:
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr59/nvsr59_10.pdf
Firearm?In 2008, 31,593 persons died from firearm injuries in the United States

Are you suggesting that guns are used in self defence 1.4 million times per year?

This means either
a) guns are used as "self defence" in situations which aren't life threatening (which was exactly my point above - I would rather be in the UK where you are more likely to get in a fist fight, but because people don't have guns no-one dies).
or b) those situations were life threatening, in which case the default homicide rate in the US is 195 per hundred thousand (42 times higher than the 4.55/100,000 rate). In which case, I'll shut the fuck up because I have no comprehension of what it is like to live in a country that violent, and if I lived in a country like that I'd probably buy a gun too.
I'm not suggesting it, and anti-gun Clinton era committee concluded that there are 1.5 million incidences of self defense with firearms in the US each year.

And they are used in situations that might not be life-threatening, but that could be, like muggins and home invasions, but in 92% of cases they are merely brandished or discharged once into the air. In only 8% of those incidences of self defense does the defender even harm the attacker.
 

spartan231490

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thaluikhain said:
spartan231490 said:
Shout out to any Australians on the forum, you might want to consider writing your politicians and asking them to re-legalize firearm ownership and use for self defense: * Australia: Readers of the USA Today newspaper discovered in 2002 that, "Since Australia's 1996 laws banning most guns and making it a crime to use a gun defensively, armed robberies rose by 51%, unarmed robberies by 37%, assaults by 24% and kidnappings by 43%. While murders fell by 3%, manslaughter rose by 16%." From the same primary source as above, if you want to fact check it.
This is one of the reasons Australians often really dislike US gun advocates, there are a lot of them that like presented misleading statistics or outright lies about Australia to encourage support for Australian gun ownership for political points.

Firstly, it isn't a crime in Australia to use a gun defensively, and most guns are restricted, not banned. This has always been the case.

Secondly, looking at actual statistics, which the exception of assault, there isn't such a dramatic increase, most crimes remained more or less static. There was a spike in robberies in 2001, though.

http://www.aic.gov.au/statistics/violent%20crime.aspx

Thirdly, the reason that gun restrictions could be so easily put into place in Australia is that the Australian populace generally supported it because they didn't have many firearms anyway. Firearms were restricted before 1996 as it was, there was no sudden change.

Fourth, last year, the number of privately owned firearms in Australia increased beyond the number of privately owned firearms just before the buyback in 1997 anyway.
Dude, I don't care what you do in your country, I know there are a lot of Australians on this forum, and thought that you might wanna know. I don't have any agenda to push legalization of more firearm ownership onto any country. And I think it's funny that you get mad at me for a footnote, when this entire thread is fulled with people not a part of the US arguing over what the US should do for gun control.

This is the original source of the statistic, I don't know if it's accurate or not, but your graph isn't evidence for either side because it only starts in 1996, the year the laws were put into place:
Dr. John R. Lott, Jr., "Gun laws don?t reduce crime," USA Today (May 9, 2002).
See also Rhett Watson and Matthew Bayley, "Gun crime up 40pc since Port Arthur," The Daily Telegraph (April 28, 2002).
See also supra note 155.
 

Grape_Bullion

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spartan231490 said:
Grape_Bullion said:
spartan231490 said:
Grape_Bullion said:
Words
Okay, but the public conscious, in general, doesn't really care about how someone defends themselves, or when someone takes their own life. They care about when someone goes on a killing spree. Some woman who blew a guy away for stealing her purse won't have the same type of social impact as a massacre. Why? Because of the way a firearm was used. And that's what this argument comes down to. Can you trust every citizen in a population of 300+ million to use a firearm properly? Of course you can't. You couldn't trust every citizen if we went back to sharpened sticks. So which makes more sense, selling guns to everybody (outside of whichever restrictions) and crossing your fingers that nothing bad will happen? Or not selling guns to anybody?

Like I said, it's a national mentality issue. Personally, I have a gun. I like knowing that if someone has a gun and they come into my house, I'm not defending myself with something that I picked up out of the sink. If guns were illegal? I wouldn't have a gun. Because likely, said robber wouldn't have a firearm, and I could defend myself with something out of the sink.

As for all those stats you're throwing around, I'm sure that victims of gun related crimes see eye to eye with you. The US is ranked 12th in the world when it comes to gun-related deaths. We're the only first world country in the top 15, which is quite an honor.
You're argument is that scare tactics and propaganda are more important that the truth and constitutional rights? Interesting.

If guns were illegal, the robber would still probably have a gun. The prohibition era and the war on drugs makes it pretty clear that banning something in the US doesn't stop people from getting it. Further, even if your attacker didn't have a gun and only had a knife, you would be very hard pressed to defend yourself without a firearm.

and I don't care if they're too emotional to see the truth. The truth is the truth. There's a reason we don't put the victims family on the jury, and we shouldn't allow them to sway our laws for the same reason.
Twelve people getting blasted in 6 minutes isn't a scare tactic or propaganda. I've already said my piece on why it's an illogical constitutional right, and truth, believe it or not, is beyond subjective. Stats can be interpreted from a variety of angles. Guns are illegal in the UK, and not surprisingly, their gun crime rate is low. In a hypothetical situation where firearms were never legal in the US, it's possible a robber would have a gun, but it's not likely; let's use the UK as an example again. The ability to defend yourself varies from person to person and a firearm is not a necessity when there are a million other types of personal defense weapons out there. Laws pass because elected officials use their judgement to decide what is right and wrong for society as they see in their eyes.

I'm not trying to belittle your opinion or attack your viewpoints, but I feel like people who are "pro-firearm" are more inclined to accept that tragedies happen and there's nothing you can do about it, so instead of fixing a problem they point out that it's going to happen anyway, regardless of what laws are passed. Maybe not you personally, but in the community. And that's a really arrogant and rather sad way to look at how this nation solves problems.
 

jklinders

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Honestly I groan a little bit whenever this topic comes up and someone opens with "I live in (insert name of country here) and our gun laws are(insert local custom here)" as if it has any bearing any where else in the world.

The UK is not the US, or Canada or Israel or whatever. What works in the UK is fine by me. What works in Canada where I live is fine by me. Based on geography and culture what works here and in the UK cannot work in the US. Sorry to burst anyone's bubble but there it is. The US has a long border with one of the more gang overrun countries in the world that engages in drug, weapons and people smuggling as a matter of daily business. No amount of gun control is going to tighten that up. Full stop. This is the geographical side of the problem. On the culture side, the US has protected in their constitution the right to bear arms. Gun control cannot be the answer here. Crooks will get the guns when they getting in by the truckload every day across the border whether they are sold in stores in the US or not. Another solution is needed.

I am not smart enough to have that solution and I doubt anyone else here is.
 

Theseus32

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Just a point here, it wasn't 12, it was over 80. 12 deaths, 80+ people shot. Bullet wounds aren't necessarily fatal. The moral of the story being, when you have your rampage with an assault rifle, don't forget that the gas mask makes it a ***** to aim.
 

spartan231490

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Grape_Bullion said:
spartan231490 said:
Grape_Bullion said:
spartan231490 said:
Grape_Bullion said:
Words
Okay, but the public conscious, in general, doesn't really care about how someone defends themselves, or when someone takes their own life. They care about when someone goes on a killing spree. Some woman who blew a guy away for stealing her purse won't have the same type of social impact as a massacre. Why? Because of the way a firearm was used. And that's what this argument comes down to. Can you trust every citizen in a population of 300+ million to use a firearm properly? Of course you can't. You couldn't trust every citizen if we went back to sharpened sticks. So which makes more sense, selling guns to everybody (outside of whichever restrictions) and crossing your fingers that nothing bad will happen? Or not selling guns to anybody?

Like I said, it's a national mentality issue. Personally, I have a gun. I like knowing that if someone has a gun and they come into my house, I'm not defending myself with something that I picked up out of the sink. If guns were illegal? I wouldn't have a gun. Because likely, said robber wouldn't have a firearm, and I could defend myself with something out of the sink.

As for all those stats you're throwing around, I'm sure that victims of gun related crimes see eye to eye with you. The US is ranked 12th in the world when it comes to gun-related deaths. We're the only first world country in the top 15, which is quite an honor.
You're argument is that scare tactics and propaganda are more important that the truth and constitutional rights? Interesting.

If guns were illegal, the robber would still probably have a gun. The prohibition era and the war on drugs makes it pretty clear that banning something in the US doesn't stop people from getting it. Further, even if your attacker didn't have a gun and only had a knife, you would be very hard pressed to defend yourself without a firearm.

and I don't care if they're too emotional to see the truth. The truth is the truth. There's a reason we don't put the victims family on the jury, and we shouldn't allow them to sway our laws for the same reason.
Twelve people getting blasted in 6 minutes isn't a scare tactic or propaganda. I've already said my piece on why it's an illogical constitutional right, and truth, believe it or not, is beyond subjective. Stats can be interpreted from a variety of angles. Guns are illegal in the UK, and not surprisingly, their gun crime rate is low. In a hypothetical situation where firearms were never legal in the US, it's possible a robber would have a gun, but it's not likely; let's use the UK as an example again. The ability to defend yourself varies from person to person and a firearm is not a necessity when there are a million other types of personal defense weapons out there. Laws pass because elected officials use their judgement to decide what is right and wrong for society as they see in their eyes.

I'm not trying to belittle your opinion or attack your viewpoints, but I feel like people who are "pro-firearm" are more inclined to accept that tragedies happen and there's nothing you can do about it, so instead of fixing a problem they point out that it's going to happen anyway, regardless of what laws are passed. Maybe not you personally, but in the community. And that's a really arrogant and rather sad way to look at how this nation solves problems.
The fact is that someone in the US is over 125 times more likely to defend themselves with a firearm, ranging from simply waving it around to shooting the attacker to death, then they are to be murdered by anyone using a gun, gun wielding mass-murderers included. They are over 10 times more likely to need to wound or kill an attacker in self defense then they are to be murdered by someone using a firearm. A person in the US is almost three times as likely to kill themselves as they are to be killed by someone using a gun. So, lets say that in only 10 percent of the cases where the person felt they needed to wound or kill their attacker in self defense(8% of all cases of self-defense using a firearm), gun ownership and use in self-defense would still save more lives than than gun ownership costs in terms of murders. Now account for the fact that over 70% of homicides involving firearms are committed using legally acquired firearms and that would mean that if only 3% of 8%, or less than a quarter of a percent of the people who defended themselves using a firearm would have died without that firearm, gun ownership would still save more lives than would be saved by a gun ban.

Using 12(and it was more than 12) people getting "blasted" in 6 minutes to push gun bans is a scare tactic and propaganda, because while a gun ban might, and I have my doubts, might stop mass killings, it would still result in the deaths of more people than it would save.

Particularly since this guy had access to smoke grenades, body armor, and explosives, all illegally. This is the worst possible example of ineffective gun control because he could have killed a lot more people using the explosives even if, somehow, a gun ban stopped him from getting a gun.
 

lunavixen

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I think it should be less about controlling the guns themselves, than it should be about controlling the sale and distribution of ammunition. Guns and ammunition in places like Australia (where I am), you need a licence and have to go through a police check to get a , guns and ammunition has to be kept in certain coniditions etc.

The problem is, is that there is always going to be a black market supply of guns, whether through second hand sale, theft or from gun smuggling, the chances of this being totally eliminated and completely controlled is nigh impossible, even with the increased amount of police and improving technologies.
 

Ryan Hughes

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Of course, the argument that everyone misses with these statistics is that self-defense with firearms simply does not happen. Compared to murder and manslaughter with firearms, legal self-defense cases are miniscule, and owning a firearm is dangerous, as it is several hundred times more likely to kill or injure a friend or family member than to stop a perpetrator.

Eighty-Five percent of all human beings have an ingrained resistance to killing others, even in defense of their own life. In fact, this resistance is so deep, that in a difficult situation your body will turn off its own bowel and bladder control before it flips the switch that allows most people to kill. This was basically proven by studies after WWII, that showed soldiers on all sides had a firing rate -with the intention to kill or injure the enemy- of about 15%.

Of course, someone without this innate resistance is what society often calls a "borderline sociopath." And while most of these people are perfectly normal and upright, sometimes they can become violent and kill, or even slip into full sociopathy.

This innate resistance can be circumvented by the need to protect a loved one, like a child or spouse, but strictly speaking in self-defense, it almost never turns off. Thus, there is no real difference between current gun laws in the US and if the government took all legal guns away from civilians, or rather, the only difference would be in accidental injuries and deaths.

Again, this innate resistance can be circumvented through operant conditioning. Modern militaries utilize this in order to increase their rate of fire of personnel, but there is strong evidence to suggest that this causes increased rates of PTSD as a result. So, we trade the trauma of death for the trauma of killing.

The major problem, to my mind, is that we have a massive society-level delusion about killing. We exalt it and obsess over it and delude ourselves about what it is and what it is like and what the consequences are. And this delusion has its roots in history, long before games and even movies portrayed violent acts.
 

Theseus32

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Also, the ammendment reads, "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

Careful readers will notice it says bugger-all about protecting your right to fire 600 rounds a minute, yet makes particular note of the fact that the entire reason this amendment exists is to support a militia, there not being much of an army in 1776. This entire debate is asinine and is funded entirely by the gun lobby.

It does not give you the right to own guns. The amendment doesn't mean that, has never meant that, will never mean that. This is not about giving a gun to any asshole off the street, it's saying soldiers, defending Americans, on american soil, have a right to guns. Torture the definitions all you want, that's what they said, that's what they meant and no amount of lobbying is going to change that.

Plus, as an added bonus to putting words in the mouths of the people who framed the constitution in america, you have the innumerable logical fallacies they immediately and desperately cling to like a limpet on a rock, in hopes of somehow defending this ridiculous proposition.

Here's a tip. You're not going to use guns to overthrow your government. They have bio-weapons, nukes, tanks and a metric fuck-ton of dudes in bodyarmor. So no. Not unless you're going to make the argument that little jenny at the church social ought to have a concealed-carry thermonuclear warhead.

Every study, as in all of them, have utterly disproved the notion that guns are safer for personal defense than the myriad of non-lethal means of defense. In fact, bringing a gun to bear against a mugger is a swell way to get him to take it out of your hands and shove it up your ass. Oh, you've practiced you say? Guess what. SO HAS HE. Guess who's made a career out of taking guns from stupid people?

You are FAR more likely to kill a friend or family member than any legitimate criminal, saying nothing of accidents. I fondly remember my grandfather's arsenal. The lock on the door was busted so we could have a selection of everything from shotguns to assault rifles to play with, and frequently did, because hey, we were kids and guns are awesome. The fact that we didn't end up shooting each other is a testament to my grandfather making sure to unload each weapon before he put it away, and us mastering Darwinism by not being dumb enough to load the things. I won't bore you with the statistics on how many underage children aren't as fortunate.

You wanna hunt? That's fine. They have 3d blinds and deer stands that are nicer than a lot of apartments. You don't need to bring automatic weapons into the mix.

And while I'm sure the NRA has graciously agreed to throw millions into researching just how amazingly effective having your very own assault rifle is in preventing you from being mugged, there are a lot of other ways to prevent it that are far LESS likely to A) get you killed and B) get your gun onto the street.

You know how criminals get guns? They rob people who have guns! Then THEY have the guns.

You are FAR less likely to have a robber wandering into your house at 3am and FAR more likely to have your teenage kid sneaking in at 3am after a party. Guess which one ends up shot FAR more often?

I get it. I do. Guns are cool. But if you wanna own one, own one because it's cool and because you're the kind of dapper individual who likes to run around strapped just DARING someone to fuck with you. Not because of any artificial illusion of "safety" it might present.

It's a viagra substitute for the terminally under-endowed. Not a safety measure. Let's stop pretending and call a spade a spade.

And FFS stop with the logical fallacies. They're transparent, misleading and utterly disingenuous. And you didn't come up with those arguments, gun lobbyists came up with those arguments. Because they want you to buy guns. Not because they're just so darned concerned about your safety.
 

Theseus32

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Also, while you're bitching about all these fictional attempts to "take your guns away" (an action, I will remind you, that would DRAMATICALLY decrease violent crime) the US government has actually legitimately overturned quite a few sections of the bill of rights, most notably the first, fourth, fifth and sixth amendments. You know. The ACTUALLY important ones. But hey, at least you can buy 6000 rounds of ammo for your assault rifle in case you wanna catch the late showing of batman.

Expressing a legitimate dissenting opinion about the actions of your government? Not so much. But who cares when you can buy a freaking minigun legally online? For... hunting. Yeah. That's it.
 

Grape_Bullion

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spartan231490 said:
Grape_Bullion said:
spartan231490 said:
Grape_Bullion said:
spartan231490 said:
Grape_Bullion said:
Words
Words
You're argument is that scare tactics and propaganda are more important that the truth and constitutional rights? Interesting.

If guns were illegal, the robber would still probably have a gun. The prohibition era and the war on drugs makes it pretty clear that banning something in the US doesn't stop people from getting it. Further, even if your attacker didn't have a gun and only had a knife, you would be very hard pressed to defend yourself without a firearm.

and I don't care if they're too emotional to see the truth. The truth is the truth. There's a reason we don't put the victims family on the jury, and we shouldn't allow them to sway our laws for the same reason.
Twelve people getting blasted in 6 minutes isn't a scare tactic or propaganda. I've already said my piece on why it's an illogical constitutional right, and truth, believe it or not, is beyond subjective. Stats can be interpreted from a variety of angles. Guns are illegal in the UK, and not surprisingly, their gun crime rate is low. In a hypothetical situation where firearms were never legal in the US, it's possible a robber would have a gun, but it's not likely; let's use the UK as an example again. The ability to defend yourself varies from person to person and a firearm is not a necessity when there are a million other types of personal defense weapons out there. Laws pass because elected officials use their judgement to decide what is right and wrong for society as they see in their eyes.

I'm not trying to belittle your opinion or attack your viewpoints, but I feel like people who are "pro-firearm" are more inclined to accept that tragedies happen and there's nothing you can do about it, so instead of fixing a problem they point out that it's going to happen anyway, regardless of what laws are passed. Maybe not you person
The fact is that someone in the US is over 125 times more likely to defend themselves with a firearm, ranging from simply waving it around to shooting the attacker to death, then they are to be murdered by anyone using a gun, gun wielding mass-murderers included. They are over 10 times more likely to need to wound or kill an attacker in self defense then they are to be murdered by someone using a firearm. A person in the US is almost three times as likely to kill themselves as they are to be killed by someone using a gun. So, lets say that in only 10 percent of the cases where the person felt they needed to wound or kill their attacker in self defense(8% of all cases of self-defense using a firearm), gun ownership and use in self-defense would still save more lives than than gun ownership costs in terms of murders. Now account for the fact that over 70% of homicides involving firearms are committed using legally acquired firearms and that would mean that if only 3% of 8%, or less than a quarter of a percent of the people who defended themselves using a firearm would have died without that firearm, gun ownership would still save more lives than would be saved by a gun ban.

Using 12(and it was more than 12) people getting "blasted" in 6 minutes to push gun bans is a scare tactic and propaganda, because while a gun ban might, and I have my doubts, might stop mass killings, it would still result in the deaths of more people than it would save.

Particularly since this guy had access to smoke grenades, body armor, and explosives, all illegally. This is the worst possible example of ineffective gun control because he could have killed a lot more people using the explosives even if, somehow, a gun ban stopped him from getting a gun.
You're giving evidence to a point I'm not disagreeing with. I've already said that guns offer protection and a sense of security in a country where people use guns, and other weapons, for offensive reasons. Evidence shows that in nations that have insanely strict gun control regulations, gun crime is low. I don't see how you draw your conclusion that more people die if firearms are illegal. Like I said, elected officials use their judgement to pass laws and regulations. People can use facts and opinions to put forth a bill, but they have no influence on if a bill passes. Smoke grenades, body armor, and explosives are an entirely different subject.
 

Ryan Hughes

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Theseus32 said:
Also, the ammendment reads, "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

Careful readers will notice it says bugger-all about protecting your right to fire 600 rounds a minute, yet makes particular note of the fact that the entire reason this amendment exists is to support a militia, there not being much of an army in 1776. This entire debate is asinine and is funded entirely by the gun lobby.
Correct, and in fact, George Washington -in his farewell address- warned against having any kind of standing army at all, he wanted the militia to handle self-defense of the nation. He also insisted that if there was a standing army, they should be barracked with the civilian population, as he had seen the effects of rampant militarism in the British army, and wanted to avoid this.
 

spartan231490

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Grape_Bullion said:
spartan231490 said:
Grape_Bullion said:
spartan231490 said:
Grape_Bullion said:
spartan231490 said:
Grape_Bullion said:
Words
Words
You're argument is that scare tactics and propaganda are more important that the truth and constitutional rights? Interesting.

If guns were illegal, the robber would still probably have a gun. The prohibition era and the war on drugs makes it pretty clear that banning something in the US doesn't stop people from getting it. Further, even if your attacker didn't have a gun and only had a knife, you would be very hard pressed to defend yourself without a firearm.

and I don't care if they're too emotional to see the truth. The truth is the truth. There's a reason we don't put the victims family on the jury, and we shouldn't allow them to sway our laws for the same reason.
Twelve people getting blasted in 6 minutes isn't a scare tactic or propaganda. I've already said my piece on why it's an illogical constitutional right, and truth, believe it or not, is beyond subjective. Stats can be interpreted from a variety of angles. Guns are illegal in the UK, and not surprisingly, their gun crime rate is low. In a hypothetical situation where firearms were never legal in the US, it's possible a robber would have a gun, but it's not likely; let's use the UK as an example again. The ability to defend yourself varies from person to person and a firearm is not a necessity when there are a million other types of personal defense weapons out there. Laws pass because elected officials use their judgement to decide what is right and wrong for society as they see in their eyes.

I'm not trying to belittle your opinion or attack your viewpoints, but I feel like people who are "pro-firearm" are more inclined to accept that tragedies happen and there's nothing you can do about it, so instead of fixing a problem they point out that it's going to happen anyway, regardless of what laws are passed. Maybe not you person
The fact is that someone in the US is over 125 times more likely to defend themselves with a firearm, ranging from simply waving it around to shooting the attacker to death, then they are to be murdered by anyone using a gun, gun wielding mass-murderers included. They are over 10 times more likely to need to wound or kill an attacker in self defense then they are to be murdered by someone using a firearm. A person in the US is almost three times as likely to kill themselves as they are to be killed by someone using a gun. So, lets say that in only 10 percent of the cases where the person felt they needed to wound or kill their attacker in self defense(8% of all cases of self-defense using a firearm), gun ownership and use in self-defense would still save more lives than than gun ownership costs in terms of murders. Now account for the fact that over 70% of homicides involving firearms are committed using legally acquired firearms and that would mean that if only 3% of 8%, or less than a quarter of a percent of the people who defended themselves using a firearm would have died without that firearm, gun ownership would still save more lives than would be saved by a gun ban.

Using 12(and it was more than 12) people getting "blasted" in 6 minutes to push gun bans is a scare tactic and propaganda, because while a gun ban might, and I have my doubts, might stop mass killings, it would still result in the deaths of more people than it would save.

Particularly since this guy had access to smoke grenades, body armor, and explosives, all illegally. This is the worst possible example of ineffective gun control because he could have killed a lot more people using the explosives even if, somehow, a gun ban stopped him from getting a gun.
You're giving evidence to a point I'm not disagreeing with. I've already said that guns offer protection and a sense of security in a country where people use guns, and other weapons, for offensive reasons. Evidence shows that in nations that have insanely strict gun control regulations, gun crime is low. I don't see how you draw your conclusion that more people die if firearms are illegal. Like I said, elected officials use their judgement to pass laws and regulations. People can use facts and opinions to put forth a bill, but they have no influence on if a bill passes. Smoke grenades, body armor, and explosives are an entirely different subject.
Just because gun crime is low doesn't mean crime is low. It's quite easy to die without being shot to death. As people use guns for self-defense more than they murder each-other with them, they save lives
 

Theseus32

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Ryan Hughes said:
Theseus32 said:
Also, the ammendment reads, "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

Careful readers will notice it says bugger-all about protecting your right to fire 600 rounds a minute, yet makes particular note of the fact that the entire reason this amendment exists is to support a militia, there not being much of an army in 1776. This entire debate is asinine and is funded entirely by the gun lobby.
Correct, and in fact, George Washington -in his farewell address- warned against having any kind of standing army at all, he wanted the militia to handle self-defense of the nation. He also insisted that if there was a standing army, they should be barracked with the civilian population, as he had seen the effects of rampant militarism in the British army, and wanted to avoid this.
Exactly right. And as Friedrich Nietzsche, the founding fathers and Jesus Christ once said, "This shit is so obvious, there's no way anyone would ever be dumb or greedy enough to misinterpret it."
 

Grape_Bullion

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And where guns are legal, they are used in the majority of crimes, whether actually fired or not. People say that they'd rather let ten guilty men go than to let one innocent man be convicted. So is it okay that 10 people use a firearm properly, and one doesn't?
 

Grape_Bullion

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spartan231490 said:
Grape_Bullion said:
spartan231490 said:
Grape_Bullion said:
spartan231490 said:
Grape_Bullion said:
spartan231490 said:
Grape_Bullion said:
Words
Words
Words
Words
Just because gun crime is low doesn't mean crime is low. It's quite easy to die without being shot to death. As people use guns for self-defense more than they murder each-other with them, they save lives
And where guns are legal, they are used in the majority of crimes, whether actually fired or not. People say that they'd rather let ten guilty men go than to let one innocent man be convicted. So is it okay that 10 people use a firearm properly, and one doesn't? Double post town.
 

Theseus32

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Appeal to authority and a false dichotomy. The logical fallacy thing works both ways. Plus assuming that american conservatives would rather let ten guilty men walk to save an innocent is a tad optimistic when current trends indicate just the opposite is true. That they'd rather execute 10 innocent men just to make DARN sure they got the one guilty guy. That's hyperbolic, of course, but accurate, considering the trends they've been forwarding.

To answer your question though, no. Of course it isn't ok. However, in deference to reality, there are far more than 10 people who use a gun correctly for each that doesn't. The fact that anyone has access to a method of killing vast numbers of people in a very short period of time is kind of the problem. It's not that they're being used "incorrectly" it's that there is no correct use for these weapons that DOESN'T involve wholesale slaughter. It's what they're freaking designed to do.
 

spartan231490

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Grape_Bullion said:
spartan231490 said:
Grape_Bullion said:
spartan231490 said:
Grape_Bullion said:
spartan231490 said:
Grape_Bullion said:
spartan231490 said:
Grape_Bullion said:
Words
Words
Words
Words
Just because gun crime is low doesn't mean crime is low. It's quite easy to die without being shot to death. As people use guns for self-defense more than they murder each-other with them, they save lives
And where guns are legal, they are used in the majority of crimes, whether actually fired or not. People say that they'd rather let ten guilty men go than to let one innocent man be convicted. So is it okay that 10 people use a firearm properly, and one doesn't? Double post town.
I'm confused. What does this have to do with anything? Increased gun control conclusively does not reduce crime in the US. I don't get this 10 guilty men and 1 innocent argument. It's not about catching the innocent with the guilty, it's about either letting the innocent defend themselves or not.