Questions about Bioshock Infinite

[SajuukKhar]

Before I begin, these questions have nothing to do with the ending, that part I get.

The question I have is, in the latter part of the game, Booker and Elizabeth go universe hoping in order to get weapons for the Vox Populi, eventually ending up in a universe where the Vox have guns, and where this universe's Booker died destroying the Hall of Heroes, and was made into a martyr for this universe's Vox cause.

Through voxaphones in this universe, we learn that this universe's Booker, joined this universe's Vox, because this universe's Comstock, had this universe's Elizabeth moved from Monument Island the second he heard this universe's Booker was in Columbia, taking her to his mansion, and this universe's Booker needed the help of this universe's Vox to get in.

The thing is though, while this universe's Daisy makes mention of how nonsensical Booker's appearance is, you know.... because this universe's Booker is dead, this universe's Comstock appears to be totally unsurprised that Booker is alive. On top of that, you NEVER see or hear anything about the Elizabeth of this universe, the one that was taken to Comstock's house when this universe's Booker first arrived in Columbia.

My question is, did I miss something, like a part where they went back to their home universe? Or does the everything after Daisy dies really make no sense?

Why isn't this universe's Comstock surprised that Booker is alive? Why isn't he surprised now that there are two Elizabeths in one universe? Where the fuck IS the other Elizabeth?

 

[TheYellowCellPhone]

Gah. That's entirely right, the alternate universe thing does mess around with Booker and Elizabeth in that moment of the game.

Don't try to make sense of multiple universes. It's sloppy at explaining, it leaves more unanswered questions than it tries to answer, it's a pissing awful story technique and I hate Irrational for using it. Just say that it was a horrible decision by Irrational and forget it. That's what I've been doing.

 

[Zhukov]

Yeah, the universe hopping makes a bit of a mess of things. The section from when Daisy Fitzroy turns up to when she dies is the game's weakest link.

Personally, I just accept that this sort of thing is inevitably going to result in a lot of narrative fuzziness.

Also, allow me to add to your questions:

- If Elizabeth was evacuated from her tower in that universe, why is it partially destroyed when they order Songbird to bring it down at the end? In the "original universe" Songbird tore it up while Booker and Elizabeth were escaping, but that apparently never happened in this universe.

 

[SajuukKhar]

This also raises the question of, if this universe's Elizabeth wasn't in the Monument Island tower, how exactly did it get destroyed like it did in the first universe?

The songbird attack shouldn't have happened since Elizabeth wasn't there, and this universe's Booker says, in a voaxaphone, that Monument Island was a ghost town, making no mention of being attacked by Songbird.

Everything after Daisy dies, and before the infinite space of lighthouses, makes no flippin sense.

Also, allow me to add to your questions:

- If Elizabeth was evacuated from her tower in that universe, why is it partially destroyed when they order Songbird to bring it down at the end? In the "original universe" Songbird tore it up while Booker and Elizabeth were escaping, but that apparently never happened in this universe.

Lol, I was just typing that same question myself.

 

[MysticSlayer]

Comstock was able to see into the multiple universes, as indicated in many different voxaphones. Chances are, he simply saw Booker starting to universe jump, or at least figured that was what was going on.

As far as Elizabeth is concerned, no telling. There's enough of an indication that the same person can exist twice in the same universe, considering Booker was practically always existing twice in the same universe throughout the game, and we also saw the many Elizabeths at the end. To my knowledge, they never bother to explain it, so you'll have to fill in the gap yourself. Things such as "She was there, but you never saw her" sort of help explain it, even if it is unsatisfying.

Finally, the monument could have been damaged by anything. It seems when Elizabeth sends you back from the future that you are still in the universe where Booker is a martyr. It's possible that the Vox set off a bomb at the monument as some sort of symbol, or it could have simply been damaged during the fighting between the Vox and Comstock's men. Chances are, though, it was an oversight by the developers, but that still doesn't mean there isn't a possible explanation, just not a very solid one.

 

[Glongpre]

Well when you try and create a story with this many threads, you are bound to forget some or get them all jumbled up. Irrational has my respect for trying such a difficult story concept.

Captcha agrees: oh yes.

 

[SajuukKhar]

As far as Elizabeth is concerned, no telling. There's enough of an indication that the same person can exist twice in the same universe, considering Booker was practically always existing twice in the same universe throughout the game, and we also saw the many Elizabeths at the end. To my knowledge, they never bother to explain it, so you'll have to fill in the gap yourself. Things such as "She was there, but you never saw her" sort of help explain it, even if it is unsatisfying.

Universe 3 Comstock putting so much effort into trying to capture universe 1 Liz, when he already has universe 3 Liz, really makes no sense, especially considering he acts like universe 1 Liz is the ONLY one he has. If universe 3 Liz had escaped, or died, or something, they need to explain that, because all given information says Comstock3 has her.

Well when you try and create a story with this many threads, you are bound to forget some or get them all jumbled up. Irrational has my respect for trying such a difficult story concept.

I would agree if it was some minor thing, but this is really a plot hole the size of the grand canyon.

If I could spot it on my first playthrough, how did they not? Did they just not know the very narrative they themselves made?

 

[MysticSlayer]

As far as Elizabeth is concerned, no telling. There's enough of an indication that the same person can exist twice in the same universe, considering Booker was practically always existing twice in the same universe throughout the game, and we also saw the many Elizabeths at the end. To my knowledge, they never bother to explain it, so you'll have to fill in the gap yourself. Things such as "She was there, but you never saw her" sort of help explain it, even if it is unsatisfying.

Universe 3 Comstock putting so much effort into trying to capture universe 1 Liz, when he already has universe 3 Liz, really makes no sense, especially considering he acts like universe 1 Liz is the ONLY one he has. If universe 3 Liz had escaped, or died, or something, they need to explain that, because all given information says Comstock3 has her.

Yeah, I almost added that to my original post, but just decided to say that any possible explanation was "unsatisfying" (probably should have used "inadequate").

Did they just not know the very narrative they themselves made?

Honestly, I'm not sure they did. The first half of the game tried being a commentary on American nationalism, violence in games, and showed indications of trying to be a commentary on choice in games. There was almost no indication of multiple universes, except in Elizabeth's powers, which early gameplay videos showed were drastically different during the early stages of development. The second half did all the universe jumping and decided to become a commentary on quantum physics and the nature of storytelling in sequels, almost completely dropping the first half's themes except for a couple of instances that felt like they were shoehorned in at the last minute.

Something tells me the story underwent many renditions over time and they tried commentating on way too much but didn't know how to present it all properly, which ended up leading to them messing up in so many key areas because there were just too many areas to mess up in. I know they had big shoes to fill given the success of the first BioShock game, but they completely forgot that the first game's appeal came from its incredibly focused nature, not in being a commentary on every single possible theme popular in video games at the time.

 

[SajuukKhar]

Something tells me the story underwent many renditions over time and they tried commentating on way too much but didn't know how to present it all properly, which ended up leading to them messing up in so many key areas because there were just too many areas to mess up in. I know they had big shoes to fill given the success of the first BioShock game, but they completely forgot that the first game's appeal came from its incredibly focused nature, not in being a commentary on every single possible theme popular in video games at the time.

I got this sort of feeling while playing the game. Frankly, Bioshock Infinite just doesn't feel.... complete?

If you compare the game to the trailers they showed, or even Bioshock 1 and 2, it feels like its missing a lot
-What happened to Elizabeth's other powers, like the storm and telekinesis things?
-What happened to Elizabeth being harmed by using her powers?
-What happened to the original nostrum/vigor setup?
-What happened to the open skylines?
-What happened to Songbird being this thing that could attack you randomly?
-What happened to all the stuff changing back and forth because of tears? It happened ONCE in the game with the statue of Lutece, but never after that.
-What happened to the boys of silence and the siren enemies that caused them to be so underused?

The game feels like its missing a lot, and I wouldn't be surprised if them constantly redoing the story over and over took up to much of their time, causing lots of stuff to be cut, and the story to take a drive in making sense in the latter half.

 

[G-Force]

A simpler question was asked.

Why did Booker blowup the airship when he stormed the gates? It was a good airship, and blowing it up was quiet a waste.

The other big question was that it's implied that Booker attempted to rescue Anna at least 100 times what caused him to fail those previous times and what was the one big variable for him to succeed. Was it the Twin's direct involvement?

 

[Ryan Hughes]

Congratulations! you found one of the many plot holes.

Look, I really liked the game, but it is far from perfect. Levine basically wanted to put the audience in a state of awe, rather than to convey a strictly linear story. This is a sign of a writer that still needs to grow as an artist. One that is so concerned with the perceived "impact" of their storytelling rather than the storytelling itself.

Do not get me wrong, I think Booker and Elizabeth are wonderfully developed characters, but beyond that, the game does suffer a less-than-stellar narrative.

Another example is the person found dead in the lighthouse at the beginning of the game. They never tell us who that person is. They never tell us why he was killed. Sure, you may be able to come up with some contrived circumstances that "explain" it, but that is not the point. The reason that person is there is to have an impact on the player in the early game. However, as I said, this is a sign of an artist that still has some room to grow.

I could go on with this, pointing out more holes, but it is indicative that Levine and the other developers were more concerned with shocking the player into paying attention, rather than working on the character's motivations, and their own plot narrative.

That being said, the ending very nearly pulls off something brilliant. At first, the game almost sets itself up as a class struggle. Then, when we see the true face of Daisy, we see the base desire in her as well. Then, the game blows all that out of the water and attempt to make all these base desires seem so small in the face of such a vast, infinite universe. Which it very nearly succeeds at. But the plot is moving too quickly to try to explain its own needlessly convoluted character back stories, that we can actually lose sight of this epiphany.

 

[Ryan Hughes]

edit: The person that was shot in the lighthouse was supposed to keep the false prophet from entering Columbia. You are told this by exploring the lighthouse before you summon the fancy chair.

Yeah. I got that. What I asked is who killed him? Why? Also, who left he note on the door that refers to Booker's delusional state he had just begun to create when he was -moments before- pulled into that dimension? Etc, Etc. You can come up with any number of lame, half thought-out "explanations" for this, yet it does not change the fact that that character was put dead in that chair with a bag on their head merely to shock and awe the player, and was never meant to be thought about in a larger context.

 

[Dalisclock]

How I interpreted it:

-What looks like Universe Hopping around that part is actually Elizabeth creating or overwriting universes based on what she wants to happen? Need the gunsmith alive? Done. Now other things have changed and he no longer has his tools. Want his tools and a revolution? Bam. Now they have guns and there's a full blown revolution on, complete with Booker dead in the process. Notice how the voxaphones and secrets you picked up before you went into the first rip are still collected afterwards? If it's a new universe, you should have never picked them up in the first place so they still should be there. The nosebleeds and tear sickeness? Overwriting people, putting them in a half dead/alive state which really messes with them. If it was a seperate universe, it shouldn't matter if you killed them before because there should be no link. After all, it's not like booker suffers everytime one of his alternates died in another universe(except with the entry to revolution-verse where he is both alive and dead at the same time).

-Comstock is booker, thus somehow he wasn't as effected as everyone else. I guess.

-Messing with universes is messy and causes problems. Which is why things start getting wierd with all the alt universe stuff and elizabeth opening those tears. Or to put it succiently: Wibbly-Wobbly, Timey Whimey.

Yeah, I realize the story obviously got rewritten quite a few times over the years and that's one of the reason the story jumps around so much as the game goes on, but despite that I feel they did an excellant job of making it mostly hold together and remain compelling. I'm not disputing the fact some parts could have used some more detail and smoothing over CoughEmporiaComstockhouseCough but despite it's many flaws, I liked it enough to replay again a month after beating it the first time.

I can't even get myself to replay bioshock through again. Each time I start getting really bored once I get past the opening section.

 

[RJ 17]

Gah. That's entirely right, the alternate universe thing does mess around with Booker and Elizabeth in that moment of the game.

Don't try to make sense of multiple universes. It's sloppy at explaining, it leaves more unanswered questions than it tries to answer, it's a pissing awful story technique and I hate Irrational for using it. Just say that it was a horrible decision by Irrational and forget it. That's what I've been doing.

Thank you...THANK YOU! Finally, someone else that agrees that the very fact that they use multi-universe theory leaves the game's story open to an infinite number of plotholes!

OT: Well, as mentioned above, it's impossible to play around with multiple universes and not have plotholes popping up all over the place. The one thing I can answer for you is why Comstock isn't surprised. He apparently has a magic mirror that lets him see all the possibilities of any given universe he's in. That's why he was such a successful profit: he actually could look into the future. As such, any given Comstock would know how many Bookers are going to be popping into his universe.

 

[Reaper195]

As far as I can tell, the moment you first move to another universe, you never return to the one you started playing, just similar ones...which frustrated the hell out of me, especially when the last fifteen minutes of the game happened (Which I'm still not sure if I like or not).

 

[Dalisclock]

As far as I can tell, the moment you first move to another universe, you never return to the one you started playing, just similar ones...which frustrated the hell out of me, especially when the last fifteen minutes of the game happened (Which I'm still not sure if I like or not).

Well, once you get to the ending, it really doesn't matter anyway, does it? Considering now columbia never exists/existed to begin with....

 

[RedDeadFred]

My interpretation is that they weren't actually going to other universes, Elizabeth was just taking the elements from other universes that they needed. The smaller tears didn't have a large effect on the whole world so they were just added in. The larger tears like bringing the gun smith back to life, had huge effects on the universes they were taken from so they altered their current universe similarly. While Daisy believed that Booker was dead, she was simply remembering what should have happened in that situation. That explains the lack of multiple Elizabeths and why Comstock isn't surprised (he knows that world altering shifts are normal when your illegitimate daughter can rip stuff over from other universes). This also explains why Elizabeth feels that she is creating the universe (wish fulfillment as she refers to it) during this portion of the game rather than simply traveling to another.

Anyway, that's my thoughts. While I doubt they're perfect (who knows, maybe they're way more flawed and I just don't see it) they do help answer a lot of potential plot holes.

 

[Extra-Ordinary]

I figured they were going into what I call the "nearest" universe, as in they go into one that is the closest in similarity to the universe they're already in.
Which to me, means that they went into a universe that had and identical set of events happen, tearing apart Elizabeth's tower, everything, and they step into it right as the Booker and Elizabeth of those universes step out, everything gets "shifted" more-or-less.
I like to think of it as a constant, that every Booker across every dimension is going to jump universes at that exact point.
Kind of a rickety explanation, I know, but it eases my mind.

As far as I can tell, the moment you first move to another universe, you never return to the one you started playing, just similar ones...which frustrated the hell out of me, especially when the last fifteen minutes of the game happened (Which I'm still not sure if I like or not).

Well, once you get to the ending, it really doesn't matter anyway, does it? Considering now columbia never exists/existed to begin with....

The way I handle that paradox is to think that there's a higher timeline in control of all this.
That no matter how much time travel and universe-jumping there is, there's a grander timeline taking care of all of it.
So the events of the game happened all up until they're destroyed, if that makes any sense.
Not the most scientific of explanations but it's what I like to go with.

 

[Werewolfkid]

Since we're talking about plot stuff in BioShock Infinite. Did anyone else notice that when you get Elizabeth out of Monument Island when their on the skyline, that the hovercraft that Songbird destroys is a Vox Populi ship. Why is that ship heading to the island. I think that the Luteces are sending multiple Bookers to the same reality and basicly trying to mix match universes until they can find the right way to destroy Comstock. Just a theory.