R2:TW - Expansion pack speculation...

[SckizoBoy]

Yes, yes, I know, I'm getting ahead of myself a little here... but fuck it, I've jerked off enough times to the prospect of R2:TW that I may as well...

So, Shogun had the Mongol Invasions, Medieval had the Viking Invasions, Rome had the Barbarian Invasions and Alexander's Conquests, Medieval 2 had Kingdoms, Empire had... something, Napoleon had the Peninsular Campaign and Shogun 2 had the Fall of the Samurai.

What does the TW playing folks of the Escapist want from R2 in terms of expansions or special campaigns?

Be it the blood bath of the Second Punic War (factions: Roman Republic, Carthaginian Republic, various Iberian tribes, Macedon, various Gallic tribes, Italian vassals etc.), the story of Julius Caesar's career (from Gaul to Pontus to the War of the First Triumvirate), the early days of Rome's conquest of Italy? Or perhaps leave Rome altogether and go for something like the Peloponnesian Wars or the Graeco-Persian Wars with Xenophon's Anabasis weaved into the narrative?

 

[DJjaffacake]

Trojan War! Because fuck yeah.

They probably won't do that though, so probably the rise of Caesar or Punic Wars or some shit.

 

[SckizoBoy]

Trojan War! Because fuck yeah.

Now that's going back a bit innit?!

Great from a literary/romantic perspective but boring as hell from a military PoV... methinks at least...

 

[DJjaffacake]

Trojan War! Because fuck yeah.

Now that's going back a bit innit?!

Great from a literary/romantic perspective but boring as hell from a military PoV... methinks at least...

That's why I said they probably won't do that, unless they go down the route of making up stuff like these books [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy_Series] and create a fiction that seems like if it were real it could plausibly have inspired the legend, but still be in some way realistic.

I can't think of anything else though, they've already done the rise of the Republic, the creation of the Empire, and the fall of the Empire, and it's harder to focus it in the same way they could in the others because of how dominant Rome is.

 

[kingthrall]

they always have an expansion . It will be probably another Alexander or Hannibal.

 

[baddude1337]

Maybe the wars with Carthage and Hannibal?

 

[Esotera]

It'd be quite interesting to have an expansion based on the conversion of the Roman Empire to Christianity, and how society changes because of this change. Or something based on naval warfare, which was massively lacking from the original Rome TW.

 

[SckizoBoy]

That's why I said they probably won't do that, unless they go down the route of making up stuff like these books [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy_Series] and create a fiction that seems like if it were real it could plausibly have inspired the legend, but still be in some way realistic.

To be fair, even in those books (great though they were... David Gemmell RIP), there wasn't much of a military narrative...

I can't think of anything else though, they've already done the rise of the Republic, the creation of the Empire, and the fall of the Empire, and it's harder to focus it in the same way they could in the others because of how dominant Rome is.

Rise of the Republic... yes, after a fashion, but perhaps a step back from there would be an interesting idea (even lesson, if it's done well): the Roman Kingdom before the establishment of the Republic. *shrug*

Maybe the wars with Carthage and Hannibal?

See I was thinking a pair of parallel campaigns: battles of Hannibal; battles of Scipio, the completion of both unlocking Zama in which you can play as either... along with a grand campaign (a la Alexander from R:TW) that you can play as either Carthage or Rome... *sigh* if only...

 

[DJjaffacake]

Rise of the Republic... yes, after a fashion, but perhaps a step back from there would be an interesting idea (even lesson, if it's done well): the Roman Kingdom before the establishment of the Republic. *shrug*

I don't think there was much military shizzle going on before the establishment of the Republic. There was a bit, but it was very small scale, not really the kind of thing CA usually go for.

 

[Bill Nye the Zombie]

Rise of the Republic... yes, after a fashion, but perhaps a step back from there would be an interesting idea (even lesson, if it's done well): the Roman Kingdom before the establishment of the Republic. *shrug*

I don't think there was much military shizzle going on before the establishment of the Republic. There was a bit, but it was very small scale, not really the kind of thing CA usually go for.

Before Rome became a semi-super power (At least in Italy) They were just one little village on Seven Hills. They fought, backstabed, and diplomised(?) there way to be the biggest super power in Italy. They could do an Expansion from the founding of Rome to the end of the Second Punic War.

Or something based on naval warfare, which was massively lacking from the original Rome TW.

Why would you want that? Naval warfare hasn't excactly been CA's strength. Besides, Rome never really invested in a Navy, except for the 1st Punic War, when they had to fight the Carthaginian Navy, and even then they didnt do all that well; a storm had to win it for them.

 

[BathorysGraveland]

It's not the first time I've said this, but I'd love a more classical Hellenistic focus. Playing as one of the Greek factions during the time following the Greco-Persian wars would be great fun. Seeing armies of mass-hoplites is very entertaining for me, and it'd be the cherry on the top if they portrayed the hoplite "push" battles as particularly brutal as I imagine they were.

 

[endtherapture]

It's not the first time I've said this, but I'd love a more classical Hellenistic focus. Playing as one of the Greek factions during the time following the Greco-Persian wars would be great fun. Seeing armies of mass-hoplites is very entertaining for me, and it'd be the cherry on the top if they portrayed the hoplite "push" battles as particularly brutal as I imagine they were.

This is a good idea.

I'd like to see an expansion based on the Persian invasion of Greece like the epic wars seen in 300 and stuff.

 

[SckizoBoy]

Why would you want that? Naval warfare hasn't excactly been CA's strength. Besides, Rome never really invested in a Navy, except for the 1st Punic War, when they had to fight the Carthaginian Navy, and even then they didnt do all that well; a storm had to win it for them.

Well, the Roman Navy did evolve from then... and playing the Battle of Actium wouldn't be so bad... would it?

Alternatively, for a showcase of how it might be done... Artemisium/Salamis perhaps? *shrug*

I don't think there was much military shizzle going on before the establishment of the Republic. There was a bit, but it was very small scale, not really the kind of thing CA usually go for.

To be fair, Empire:TW had the whole fighting the natives to independence which can be construed as being equivalent to this so... *eh*

It's not the first time I've said this, but I'd love a more classical Hellenistic focus. Playing as one of the Greek factions during the time following the Greco-Persian wars would be great fun. Seeing armies of mass-hoplites is very entertaining for me, and it'd be the cherry on the top if they portrayed the hoplite "push" battles as particularly brutal as I imagine they were.

See, I get a hard-on from hoplite warfare, but the problem lies in the unit diversity. It'd be as polarising as N:TW on the community. Some loved it (like me) for the story and the general aesthetic. Others hated it because the unit rosters were all identical (barring a few special units here and there) and tactics became very predictable.

The same thing's probably going to happen here. Sparta gets Spartiates, Athens gets souped up triremes, Corinth gets Corinthian hoplites, Thebes gets Sacred Band, and that's about it. Everyone is going to have a core roster of hoplites; outriders; skirmishers; and biremes/coastal galleys. How limited this is, is my principle worry with a Hellenic: Total War. :/

 

[BathorysGraveland]

snip

Well, as far as I'm concerned, it'd have a much more diverse unit roster than Shogun 2, and look how popular that is. There would be some factions from the east included, for an ambitious player who would like to accomplish what Darius and Xerxes could not. And every Hellenic faction would have their own little advantages and disadvantages, Sparta for example would field some of the best hoplites, but when facing off against Macedon on an open field they could very well be massacred due to having a poor or even non-existing cavalry forces. Krete would obviously field the finest archers, who, given the chance to surround their enemies, could annihilate even armoured hoplite formations. Their major lack would be sub-par hoplites who would get destroyed quickly against more hardened hoplites from Corinth, Athens, Thespia etc. You could wage a massive naval war for control of the Aegean sea and its islands between Athens and Rhodes, with Krete getting involved in an opportunistic manner. There could be a great Hellenic alliance and they could wage a retaliation invasion of the east?

I think there is more diversity and potential in this sort of game than you give it credit for.

 

[SckizoBoy]

Well, as far as I'm concerned, it'd have a much more diverse unit roster than Shogun 2, and look how popular that is. There would be some factions from the east included, for an ambitious player who would like to accomplish what Darius and Xerxes could not. And every Hellenic faction would have their own little advantages and disadvantages, Sparta for example would field some of the best hoplites, but when facing off against Macedon on an open field they could very well be massacred due to having a poor or even non-existing cavalry forces. Krete would obviously field the finest archers, who, given the chance to surround their enemies, could annihilate even armoured hoplite formations. Their major lack would be sub-par hoplites who would get destroyed quickly against more hardened hoplites from Corinth, Athens, Thespia etc. You could wage a massive naval war for control of the Aegean sea and its islands between Athens and Rhodes, with Krete getting involved in an opportunistic manner. There could be a great Hellenic alliance and they could wage a retaliation invasion of the east?

I think there is more diversity and potential in this sort of game than you give it credit for.

Really should've remembered about Cretan archers...

Anyway, while I acknowledge what you've said, I'm playing devil's advocate here, since part of the reason why Empire, Napoleon and to a certain extent Shogun 2 weren't well received, from a military challenge perspective was because of the same-y unit rosters. While it will definitely be the case that there will be more variation, there will invariably be a vocal minority (how much of a minority would remain to be seen) who won't like it.

To be fair to them, hoplite warfare was hardly the well-spring of tactical innovation because the result usually fell to whose phalanx could maintain formation in the crush for longer. Still, I'm not sure which would be more restrictive in this respect: the Peloponnesian Wars; or the Wars of the Diadochi (though this one has more scope as far as geography and elite units are concerned).

Having said that, I'd be psyked for a Hellenic incarnation of Total War, but less for the military aspect, but for the diplomatic, so long as its done well (obviously). Just how many times can one back-stab and be back-stabbed. Thucydides paints a thoroughly treacherous picture... And involving the Persians and then ending with the rise of Macedon would round it off nicely. Historical scenarios could include Plataea, Leuctra, Mantinea and even Mycale if the marine landing aspect is well handled. Mini-campaigns could include the Syracuse Expedition and the Second Persian invasion of Greece, starting with a cut down stand at Thermopylae. Perhaps, another challenge would be to recreate the Ten Thousand (be fucking awesome if they could do it, though it would take some imagination to make it workable given the games' system).

Positively mouthwatering...

 

[PrinceOfShapeir]

If they want to do something really crazy, they could do something set around the same time but in a different part of the world, like my much desired Three Kingdoms: Total War.