Racism in Skyrim?

[Beryl77]

Isn't this kind of racism normal in these games? Just look at Dragon Age or The Witcher. Devs seem to like to use it.

 

[Sandernista]

The high elves that think they are so superior that humans and other mortals need wiped out. The one that want the civil war dragged out as long as possible to maximize human casualties and increase the odds of destroying them utterly and completely.
Fucks sake visit an Orc stronghold. They hate everyone. Thalmor patrols want to kidnap you and torture you so you will confess to something you did not do; they hate humans as an inferior species THAT FUCKING MUCH!

While I love the racism (that sounds wrong) in the elder scrolls series, I actually think that here, they could have done even more involving your character.
I've got a (female) high-elf, but am a bit dissapointed by how less the Imperial care. Wouldn't the legion question it when a high-elf joins their ranks? I could be a spy afterall. What sort of really dissapointed my was that the Thalmor do not seem to care either that I'm 'one of them'. During the embassy mission I was wearing an elven armour, but the guards attacked me on sight anyways. Shouldn't my character be able to pass as one of the many guards? Of course, this was made for the sake of having balanced gameplay and not giving high-elf players an advantage in that mission, but I would have actually prefered if they would less care about balance and more about role-play, which would mean making it possible to disguise as a guard and recieve recognition during the party.
When I entered Windhelm, I witnessed two Nord harrasing a dark-elf for just living in Skyrim, but nobody minded an high-elf that joined the imperial legion jumping around Ulfric's throne room while he and his advisors where talking about secret battle plans.

I just have the feeling that, while the atmosphere the racism in Skyrim creates is great, it is too much of an NPC based aspect and your character is not affected by it.

The Thalmor believe any High Elf not born in Alinor, and not a member of the Thalmor to be dirty blood traitors.

The Thalmor probably mark themselves with some sort of magical thingamabob.

 

[Therumancer]

I first realised this just after I picked a race. I chose to play as a Nord which immediately brought the guard with the check list great joy. He was also very taken aback when after he gave his "Norse power" speech the front woman still ordered me to my death. This made me realsise that this game might have a slight Norse supiriourity thing going.

After surviving the dragon onsluaght I was sent to Riverwood, where another man sent me to Whiterun. When I reached Whiterun the first thing that I encountered was a squatter camp filled with Khajiit. I went closer and over heard two of them talking about how the Nords would not let them into Whiterun because they think all Khajiit are rapists and theives. They then went on to say that all they are trying to do is raise a family.

When I entered Whiterun I saw a group of Redguards being herassed by Whiterun guards. The guards where going on about how the Redguards only wanted to come in to rape children and abduct woman to sell into slavery. When I went up to one of the Redguards, he said that they where just looking for a friend and if I could help.

Things like this kept happening throughout the game, and I didn't make a post about it earlier because I thought Yatshee would bring it up in his review of Skyrim but he didn't. So I want to know if I am the only one who has experienced this racism, and if you have, share your tales of witnessed racist actions within Skrim.

It's been commented on before. I think the problem is a lot of people immediatly jump on the bandwagon that rebels are good, and ruthless empires are evil, and want to pitch in with the apparent underdog, when actually things are the opposite in this game.

The Nords *ARE* racist, they have this whole "chosen people" thing going, and are a group of conquering warmongers who believe they have the right to rule over everyone else. Not surprising given that they are Viking/Germanic in theme and the whole Aryan superiority thing is a big part of the culture. Honestly some people have even gone so far as to show some pretty interesting parallels to the events in Skyrim including the treaty with the Thalmar, and what happened with Germany between World War I and going into World War II with Ulfric as a general analogy to Hitler when he first got moving, but wasn't in a position to really go off the deep end. If it seems like you could see the Nords rounding up all the non-Nords and executing them you wouldn't be alone in thinking it could come to that and might be intentional.

One thing you have to understand is that The Empire are actually the good guys, and have been pretty much since the beginning. "Arena" revolved around saving the emperor who had been imprisoned by a renegade battle mage, and "Daggerfall" revolved around basically uniting Tamriel, with The Empire being the least evil of the various factions who were all murdering each other, the empire might be ruthless but at least provided the possibility for co-existance, where any of the other factions would have exterminated everyone else outright. The end of "Daggerfall" basically being you playing king-maker with a super weapon and deciding which faction should get it. The Empire being the official answer and the "good" ending so to speak. We also see what the death of The Emperor set in motion (and what his existance was sort of standing off) in Oblivion.

Basically, if The Empire falls or loses control, things go back to the way they were before and everyone starts killing each other again. The Nords being vikings are arguably one of the less nice groups out there as you can guess just by the theme. For all the comments about self rule and all of that, I think through the Nords are a good example of why such high flown principles are naive since not all cultures are worthy of that. The Nords are quite blunt about what they want to do with their freedom, and that generally means going to war with "lesser" races in the pursuit of blood and glory, and a lot of them are pretty blunt about it... pining over the old days of raiding and so on.

Of course RP wise, your character is predisposed to not like The Empire because they were going to cut your head off. Unlike other games (and contrary to Yahtzee's review) they explain why your in that situation... you were crossing the border in a place that just happened to coincide with them picking up Ulfric. They wanted to control the whole situation and that meant anyone associated with it who could provide a witness. It's bloody ruthless and not fair to you, but when you look at the whole situation it's easy to see why they were being that way. Even if your on the receiving end of something that is unfair you can see the greater good arguements that can be made given the information the guys doing the execution actually had. You'll notice Ulfric is hardly very receptive to you from that experience (as Yahtzee points out) and like any three dimensional group there are plenty of good people in The Stormcloaks, but overall the rebellion doesn't serve anyone's best interests, including The Nords. Ulfric himself seems to mostly just want to be a conquering Warlord. What will his free Skyrim do? Well I think it starts with a holocaust, and moves on to armies raiding other nations like the old days, if not outright invading them (or trying to).

 

[Muspelheim]

"Rajh'khan likes Skyrim. He also likes some Nords. But he knows that you can like some Nords all of the time and like all Nords some of the time, but you can't like all Nords all of the time. And Rajh'khan believes there are many Nords who do not like him all of the time... Very sad, for Rajh'khan knows he is in foreign lands, and attempt to behave himself like a good visitor.

But Rajh'khan believes Jarl Stormcork is taking it too far... Skyrim for the Nords? It will weaken them. You cannot survive in the desert all on your own... Maybe Rajh'khan should toss his staff in for the Legion after all. There are good Nords. With cindereyes and warm embrace. They deserve better than the Stormboats. Even a humble guest such as Rajh'khan sees it..."



Really, well-managed fantastical racism makes for a nice spice!

 

[Daystar Clarion]

Aisha is called milk drinker, but Aisha is confused.

Aisha drinks milk in secret milk drinking place that nobody know about. Stop other milk drinkers from stealing Aisha's milk.

If Nords know about secret milk drinking place, Aisha must find new place to drink milk.

Aisha is unhappy now. Skyrim lack prime milk drinking realestate.

 

[Lord Honk]

Racism? In my fantasy RPG?!

All joking aside... I've got nothing. This is just a joke. I've had enough with "videogame controversies". Just leave me to my basement god damn it.

 

[RamirezDoEverything]

I play as a khajiit, I noticed the racism when I was referred to as, "The Cat" at the beginning of the game.

I like it, the developers are trying something new..

 

[Smeggs]

Raj find their Racism funny.

So what in im not nord? Raj happy to be khajiit.

Whats that? You ask if i want bowl of milk? Actually yes. Raj would love bowl of milk right now. Very thirsty after killing dragon that wanted to destroy you homes.

Oh what? Raj would make fine rug? Thank you! Always think i would. And skyrim has many nice rugs, so it is great compliment!

Sure, they may be bit of butthole, but it does not effect Raj. Just wait till they sleep, teabag few times. Who has last laugh now?!

Khajiit does, thats who!

Raj teabags?

Hmm, Sarram steals their valuables and sometimes leaves dead body in bed with them.

Raj's method very different from Sarram's.

 

[Denariax]

A Lord of the Rings-esque fantasy game where everyone is the stereotypical equivalent of a medieval New Jersey is racist? Call the government, guys, this stuff's world-news.

 

[Muspelheim]

Rajh'khan simply note them down in his tome of grudges. When he is a truly mighty wizard, weaving the secrets of magic like cobweb to his will, then it will be time for payback...

According to his calculations, Rajh'khan will have to level about half of Windhelm...

 

[Justanewguy]

I don't believe there's any talk of rape in the game; correct me if I'm wrong.

You are, but it's not as blatant as what has been thrown around before. Thieves Guild spoiler coming up:

Spoiler

Sapphire, one of the thieves from the thieves guild, has a discussion with the player after he/she becomes guild master in which she explains that the reason she is so bitter is because her family was killed by raiders who proceeded to "use" her. She doesn't out and out say she was "raped" but the obvious intent of the words is there, there's really no mistaking what she means.

 

[Justanewguy]

For the record, I think it's funny how there are two different takes on the Redguards. On one side some people are saying they're there to kill an innocent woman for speaking out. On the other is a group saying that they're exacting justice on a criminal. It's these shades of grey that make the game worthwhile. Right and wrong are not really black and white here. What's true? It's hard to say, as there's no way to check the facts, but I'm impressed with what they did.

Even a bad guy tends to believe he's doing good things. They managed to give a quest that shows just that. That's impressive, and I'd like to see more of that.

Its only grey because one half doesn't know what the fuck they are talking about.

Spoiler

The Alkir are there to kidnap ALIVE the woman that sold out the Redguard to the Altmeri during the war. She is not innocent, she is not getting killed for free speech, she is being taken back for trial for treason.

Uh...I think you completely missed what I said. I look at this like Quantum Theory (bare with me). There are two possibilities, based on the actions of the player (which side you choose to help). If you choose to help the woman, then the Redgaurds are said to be there to kidnap or kill an innocent woman. If you choose to help the Redguards, the woman is said to be guilty of treason.

There is no way to be sure she is ACTUALLY guilty of treason, which is why I say it's like Quantum Theory. There are two outcomes. One where she is innocent, one where she is guilty. If you choose to believe she's innocent, the game plays out as if she is. Likewise, if you believe she's guilty, the game plays out as if she is. Essentially you open the box to find out whether Schrodinger's Cat is innocent or guilty. It's neither and both before you open the box, but once open you observe the state according to the laws of nature.

So...in essence, I'm saying you're wrong. The evidence the Redguards have is purely their word, they never present proof that she is guilty. They SAY she is, and if you help them then the assumption is that she is, but there is no tangible proof to say she really is. On the flip side, there's no proof she's innocent. She says she is, and if you help her then the assumption is that she is, but there's no tangible proof acquitting her of anything either.

 

[Char-Nobyl]

I first realised this just after I picked a race. I chose to play as a Nord which immediately brought the guard with the check list great joy. He was also very taken aback when after he gave his "Norse power" speech the front woman still ordered me to my death. This made me realsise that this game might have a slight Norse supiriourity thing going.

Well, yeah, but not really for that scene. The guy was a Nord legionnaire who could see that you were a Nord coming back to his homeland and ending up at the wrong place and the wrong time, which his Imperial officer couldn't.

When I entered Whiterun I saw a group of Redguards being herassed by Whiterun guards.

Wait, what? You mean the scimitar-wielding mercenaries being refused entry into the town by the guards?

The guards where going on about how the Redguards only wanted to come in to rape children and abduct woman to sell into slavery. When I went up to one of the Redguards, he said that they where just looking for a friend and if I could help.

A 'friend'? Did you actually do that quest? They were looking for a Redguard political refugee with the intent of murdering her. The guards didn't let them in not because they were Redguards, but because they were wearing the uniform of a notoriously ethically-unbound mercenary outfit and were showing up at the gates with swords at their hips looking for a local Redguard and refusing to state their intentions.

Whew. That was a long sentence. Get all that?

Things like this kept happening throughout the game, and I didn't make a post about it earlier because I thought Yatshee would bring it up in his review of Skyrim but he didn't. So I want to know if I am the only one who has experienced this racism, and if you have, share your tales of witnessed racist actions within Skrim.

No shit, Sherlock. That was supposed to be a point of the game. Ulfric and the Stormcloaks might have a lot of valid points, but they're ultimately as xenophobic as they come. Their platform that 'Skyrim is for the Nords' is cited frequently by both their opponents and themselves.

 

[Char-Nobyl]

For the record, I think it's funny how there are two different takes on the Redguards. On one side some people are saying they're there to kill an innocent woman for speaking out. On the other is a group saying that they're exacting justice on a criminal. It's these shades of grey that make the game worthwhile. Right and wrong are not really black and white here. What's true? It's hard to say, as there's no way to check the facts, but I'm impressed with what they did.

Even a bad guy tends to believe he's doing good things. They managed to give a quest that shows just that. That's impressive, and I'd like to see more of that.

Its only grey because one half doesn't know what the fuck they are talking about.

Spoiler

The Alkir are there to kidnap ALIVE the woman that sold out the Redguard to the Altmeri during the war. She is not innocent, she is not getting killed for free speech, she is being taken back for trial for treason.

Ah, you make an excellent point. I'd edit my previous post to put in the correct info, but I'm rather lazy.

That being said, that puts them in the same category as Mossad agents...and the Whiterun guards are rather justified in not letting them into the city.

 

[TheCommanders]

Thalmor patrols want to kidnap you and torture you so you will confess to something you did not do; they hate humans as an inferior species THAT FUCKING MUCH!

Personally I imagined they were agents of the spanish inquisition. Their presence was rather unexpected.

 

[LorienvArden]

I first realised this just after I picked a race. I chose to play as a Nord which immediately brought the guard with the check list great joy. [...]

Things like this kept happening throughout the game, and I didn't make a post about it earlier because I thought Yatshee would bring it up in his review of Skyrim but he didn't.

1. Yes, there is plenty of racism in Skyrim.
2. It has been in Oblivion as well and very likely in the other games from TES-Series.
3. No, it is not a bad thing

You do have to keep in mind that this is set in medival times. While fictionary and ladden with fantastic elements, it keeps close to the believes and mindsets of medival folk. It wouldn't be a very good setting for adventure if there wasn't tension between different people, not only of the same race (human, elven, orkish) but also of different heritage (nord,breton,imperial,dunmer,altmer,bosmer...)
If everybody accepted anyone, the setting would feel unrealistic and shale - even utopian science fiction like gene rodenberrys "star trek" has 'racism' in the form of normal humans beeing afraid of Klingon Warriors because they seem aggressive and alien.

Skyrim gives you the option to follow two valid options on the imperial vs. Stormcloak question: stability and prosperity vs. patriotism and tradition.
Thats what makes it a GOOD experience. You can explore the problem from different angles
and learn more about why the problem arose and overcome it in a way thats satisfying for you.

Uh...I think you completely missed what I said. I look at this like Quantum Theory (bare with me). There are two possibilities, based on the actions of the player (which side you choose to help).

Actually there is a third possibility AND a definite solution to the problem:
1) The Alakir are right and the women is lying
2) The Alakir are lying and the women is right
3) The Alakir and the women are lying
Solution:

Spoiler

You kill the Warriors and the women and say that they all where guilty- since no other witnesess or proof are available, you alone make up the truth.
Problem ?

 

[Jinx_Dragon]

That squatter camp is a roving band of Khajit merchants. Its the caravan and they sell some useful stuff from time to time. They don't raise children on the caravan because it is too dangerous.
The redguard they are kicking out tried to kidnap a girl(investigate the quest) and were disturbing the peace. They were special operations troopers from Hammerfell.
As for nord power yeah its more of a national pride thing than a superiority thing. While some of ulfrics cannnon fodder think nords are superior to all things you forget what they hate the most. The high elves that think they are so superior that humans and other mortals need wiped out. The one that want the civil war dragged out as long as possible to maximize human casualties and increase the odds of destroying them utterly and completely.
Fucks sake visit an Orc stronghold. They hate everyone. Thalmor patrols want to kidnap you and torture you so you will confess to something you did not do; they hate humans as an inferior species THAT FUCKING MUCH!

Loved the way you played into the settings racism.

Actually, I want the racist element to be there as it is part of the setting. I can not tell you how much it pisses me of that 'Political Correctness' is being pushed into FANTASY. We are talking about a setting that is, normally, set in the 'dark ages.' The very idea that a handful of people would be enlightened to look past basic differences is a stretch in and of itself. The mentality that the majority of the human stock would be willing to look past racial and culture differences is down right pathetic. We still don't have that.

If you want a setting to be anything close to realistic you are going to have to portray the people as racist, sexist and all round bigoted.

Remember, these are people who would slaughter thousands of people simply because they where not of the correct bloodline. Anglo-Saxons had no problem slaughtering the Britons, scots, the Picts or even the roman descendants living in the area at the time. They would burn whole villages down over a disagreement in one paragraph of some religious text, while worshiping the same god, because they where that bigoted.

The colour of a persons skin would of been more then justification to hate them outright and heaven forbid we actually get a situation where sentient non-human are involved!

 

[WolfThomas]

The end of "Daggerfall" basically being you playing king-maker with a super weapon and deciding which faction should get it. The Empire being the official answer and the "good" ending so to speak.

Actually the canon ending to Daggerfall is explained, sort of, in "The Warp in the West". Basically several of the different ending occurred simultaneously resulting in the empire ruling the province, each king becoming ruler of a specific part and the Orcs creating a homeland.

I don't believe there's any talk of rape in the game; correct me if I'm wrong.

You are, but it's not as blatant as what has been thrown around before. Thieves Guild spoiler coming up:

Spoiler

Sapphire, one of the thieves from the thieves guild, has a discussion with the player after he/she becomes guild master in which she explains that the reason she is so bitter is because her family was killed by raiders who proceeded to "use" her. She doesn't out and out say she was "raped" but the obvious intent of the words is there, there's really no mistaking what she means.

Spoiler: Also in the Dark Brotherhood

Vasha one of the people to possibly execute describes himself as a "defilor of women"

 

[Vladeon]

I'm not sure if anyone else has said this already, but I'm going to put it out there just in case. According to the creation myth that's accepted by all races in the Elder Scrolls games, All of the Elves (Mer) and the Men have a common ancestry in the Ehlnofey. The only race that is explicitly mentioned as coming from a different world is The Hist, which are giant life-giving trees. It's unclear where the Argonians came from, but it seems probable that they simply evolved from fauna in the Black Marsh area, perhaps given life by The Hist. The Khajiit supposedly predate everything. Basically what I'm saying is that Mer and Men can interbreed in the Elder Scrolls and it's unclear whether Mer/Men and the beastfolk can interbreed. This is all leading to the point that racism is inherent in the lore of the Elder Scrolls. What this speaks to is that each type of elf and man are different races of the same species. As can be seen from the creation myth, the Ehlnofey seem to have an inherant hatred of different versions of themselves. The high elves tend to view themselves as the most pure race of Ehlnofey and everyone else as lesser breeds.

Going outside of lore, Bethesda has always made racism something that's shone through in the Elder Scrolls. For whatever reason, it's important to the developer to show that even in fantasy worlds, negative aspects of society will always be present. For me it adds to the immersion and to the internal narrative of the series a great deal. It adds interpersonal expectations from the player just as you'd have in real life. In real life, when I see a bum on the side of the street, I have an idea of what to expect, just as in Skyrim when I see a beggar, I have an idea of what to expect.

edit: the books I reference can be found here:

A Children's Anuad - http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:A_Children%27s_Anuad

Notes on Racial Phylogeny - http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Notes_on_Racial_Phylogeny

 

[mattaui]

I quite enjoyed donning the mantle of Nord supremacist and making the Imperials pay for selling out the Empire and Skyrim to the Thalmor and thinking they could bargain away my people's religious rights all in the name of expediency and the greater good. Whose greater good? Would they have killed every Nord to save the rest of the Empire if their elf witch puppet-masters had commanded them thus?

Of course, I didn't think that Skyrim was only for the Nords, but it clearly needed to be run by the Nords who lived there. They wanted to bring back Talos worship, not cast out the Eight in favor of only Talos worship, as the various temples to other deities clearly showed. Sure, there were a few openly racist types that didn't think non-Nords had any right to live in Skyrim, but they were the exception, not the rule. Even Ulfric doesn't think that way, as a ruler.

I suppose one has to differentiate who you escape with during the opening sequence versus who you ultimately support in the civil war, since you're not locked into it at that point. However, I'd feel pretty miffed at summary execution for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, no matter what the excuse. I guess the Empire hopes there are enough meek little sheep who will happily put their head on the chopping block for the greater good. Whenever anyone has to tell you something is for the greater good, it means they're about to screw you over. I think it would have been a nice touch if continuing to follow the Imperial after the attack would just get you executed eventually unless you ran off on your own.

Ideally I would have liked to have been able to support a more pro-Nord Imperial presence, rather than all one way or all the other, and there's no question that the Thalmor are happy to see all the infighting going on. Arguably destroying all the Imperial garrisons makes Skyrim an easier target for Thalmor domination, though it might also make the Nord populace more willing to fight more fiercely against the Dominion should they invade, whereas they might not be as willing to come to the aid of the Empire in battle.

I think it's great that Bethesda gave you two complex options, since saying the Nord 'are the bad guys' is woefully simplistic. The only reason the Empire was so 'good' in the previous two games is that you were up against ultimate evil. In this case, they bifurcated the plot so that you could choose either side (or neither) and still be the one to save the world from destruction.