Racism, Stereotypes, and Cultural Norms.

LetalisK

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Rosiv said:
I think its cause you are stereotyping, as you said. I mean, making assumptions based on sketchy "general truths" can cause people who don't fit them to feel a bit, out of place no?
No, I don't think so. The part that is wrong is when someone makes it clear they are not part of that stereotype and the other person keeps insisting that they are simply because they're Hispanic or whatever the group in question is. For example, if Rednok had said he doesn't like rice and the person didn't believe him, continuing to insist on an answer for favorite rice. "Bullshit, you're hispanic, you have to like rice."

ninjaRiv said:
I mean, did you see the Twitter trends during the Boston bombing? When they finally identified the bombers the majority of trends were based around "OMG, they're not Muslim!" And even then, some people kinda carried on thinking they were or claimed they were innocent due to their race. We live in an odd world, my man.
This confuses me, because the brothers actually were Muslim, one far more devout than the other and being motivated by extremist Muslim dogma and practiced a fundamentalist Muslim lifestyle. What do you mean they weren't Muslim? Or are you talking about the public confusion immediately after when they were pointed out because they didn't look "Muslim enough"?
 

ninjaRiv

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LetalisK said:
ninjaRiv said:
I mean, did you see the Twitter trends during the Boston bombing? When they finally identified the bombers the majority of trends were based around "OMG, they're not Muslim!" And even then, some people kinda carried on thinking they were or claimed they were innocent due to their race. We live in an odd world, my man.
This confuses me, because the brothers actually were Muslim, one far more devout than the other and being motivated by extremist Muslim dogma and practiced a fundamentalist Muslim lifestyle. What do you mean they weren't Muslim? Or are you talking about the public confusion when they were pointed out because they didn't "look Muslim enough"?
I meant that people were declaring them "white therefore not Muslim."
 

IllumInaTIma

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As OP nicely said, it's all about intent. I remember one thread where people were talking about offensive words like "*****" or whatever and that made me confused. Why does it matter what word someone used to offend you? I'm Kazakh and I have Russian, Muslim and Korean friends. We address each other with our names mixed with different genitalia terms, and one of our ongoing lines is "All you Russians/Kazakhs/Koreans are the same" and we laugh. Because we are friends, because we have no intention to offend each other. And it's the same with strangers, I've met a bunch of really good people who were genuinely curious if stuff in "Borat" was real.
 

aba1

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I generally agree with the OP and I will just say this. If someone asked me what my favorite potato's were because I am Irish I would just answer. Culturally we tend to eat potatoes a lot it isn't like the guy said I had to eat potatoes or was trying to imply something about myself because of it they were just taking a interest in my tastes.
 

Rosiv

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LetalisK said:
No, I don't think so. The part that is wrong is when someone makes it clear they are not part of that stereotype and the other person keeps insisting that they are simply because they're Hispanic or whatever the group in question is. For example, if Rednok had said he doesn't like rice and the person didn't believe him, continuing to insist on an answer for favorite rice. "Bullshit, you're hispanic, you have to like rice."
I dunno, all i think is that presumptions = rude. I thought it was a social "foh pah" to do anything with out some level of tact. It just screams of ignorance for someone not to be considerate of things like race, gender, sexuality, anything "hot button" ya know?
 

LetalisK

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Rosiv said:
LetalisK said:
No, I don't think so. The part that is wrong is when someone makes it clear they are not part of that stereotype and the other person keeps insisting that they are simply because they're Hispanic or whatever the group in question is. For example, if Rednok had said he doesn't like rice and the person didn't believe him, continuing to insist on an answer for favorite rice. "Bullshit, you're hispanic, you have to like rice."
I dunno, all i think is that presumptions = rude. I thought it was a social "foh pah" to do anything with out some level of tact. It just screams of ignorance for someone not to be considerate of things like race, gender, sexuality, anything "hot button" ya know?
Utilizing generalizations with tact and open mindedness is pretty much what I just said. Unless you would argue we can never use generalizations, I don't see where we disagree.
 

Nickolai77

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There's always going to be stereotypes around race because race corresponds to culture which is where the stereotypes come from. I think it's perfectly fine to espouse positive stereotypes with others of different racial backgrounds- but of course you're being an asshole if you're insensitively talking about negative racial stereotypes. We naturally stereotype so we understand the world (I stereotype computers by assuming they have an "on" switch for instance) so stereotyping is unavoidable, so you have just got to use common sense and knowledge of context when making remarks about racial stereotypes.
 

Rosiv

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LetalisK said:
Rosiv said:
LetalisK said:
No, I don't think so. The part that is wrong is when someone makes it clear they are not part of that stereotype and the other person keeps insisting that they are simply because they're Hispanic or whatever the group in question is. For example, if Rednok had said he doesn't like rice and the person didn't believe him, continuing to insist on an answer for favorite rice. "Bullshit, you're hispanic, you have to like rice."
I dunno, all i think is that presumptions = rude. I thought it was a social "foh pah" to do anything with out some level of tact. It just screams of ignorance for someone not to be considerate of things like race, gender, sexuality, anything "hot button" ya know?
Utilizing generalizations with tact and open mindedness is pretty much what I just said. Unless you would argue we can never use generalizations, I don't see where we disagree.
Well yea i mean, dont use generalizations, that is having tact in social situations. Thats what i meant, its rude to assume ya know. When you assume you make an "ass" out of "u" and "me". Thats the whole mantra i go by.
 

LetalisK

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Rosiv said:
Well yea i mean, dont use generalizations, that is having tact in social situations. Thats what i meant, its rude to assume ya know. When you assume you make an "ass" out of "u" and "me". Thats the whole mantra i go by.
And what I'm saying is that using generalizations is not automatically tactless. I also don't think you actually believe that, but rather you're only thinking of all the negative applications of generalizations[footnote]And there are a lot of them, I'm not trying to diminish that.[/footnote]. It's literally what our brains do every day to process the vast amounts of data we collect all day and it's part of the basis of statistics, notably sociology and psychology since we're talking about social situations. Alcohol and cigarette laws, age of consent laws, voting laws, etc are based on generalizations about minors. Affirmative action is based on generalizations about both minorities and white men.

On the micro level, like social situations, it's not walking down a dark and seedy looking alley when walking home from work. It's giving a homeless man $20 for food even when you have no special reason to believe that he'll actually spend it on food. Not casually using the word "nigga" at a party, even as a black man, because it might offend some people is generalizing. Generalizing is something everyone does all the time and I'm using zero hyperbole. It's one of our core survival traits. The problem comes when we cling to generalizations in the face of opposing evidence(and therein things like racism are born). We can argue whether or not the guy in the OP was being appropriate with generalizations, but considering we even use generalizations to try to not offend people, we can't say they shouldn't be used. They're a tool and it's up to use it properly.

Edit: I should point out that I don't find what you said to be a bad thing. I just think it is too absolutist to be practical.
 

Rosiv

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LetalisK said:
Rosiv said:
Well yea i mean, dont use generalizations, that is having tact in social situations. Thats what i meant, its rude to assume ya know. When you assume you make an "ass" out of "u" and "me". Thats the whole mantra i go by.
And what I'm saying is that using generalizations is not automatically tactless. I also don't think you actually believe that, but rather you're only thinking of all the negative applications of generalizations[footnote]And there are a lot of them, I'm not trying to diminish that.[/footnote]. It's literally what our brains do every day to process the vast amounts of data we collect all day and it's part of the basis of statistics, notably sociology and psychology since we're talking about social situations. Alcohol and cigarette laws, age of consent laws, voting laws, etc are based on generalizations about minors. Affirmative action is based on generalizations about both minorities and white men.

On the micro level, like social situations, it's not walking down a dark and seedy looking alley when walking home from work. It's giving a homeless man $20 for food even when you have no special reason to believe that he'll actually spend it on food. Not casually using the word "nigga" at a party, even as a black man, because it might offend some people is generalizing. Generalizing is something everyone does all the time and I'm using zero hyperbole. It's one of our core survival traits. The problem comes when we cling to generalizations in the face of opposing evidence(and therein things like racism are born). We can argue whether or not the guy in the OP was being appropriate with generalizations, but considering we even use generalizations to try to not offend people, we can't say they shouldn't be used. They're a tool and it's up to use it properly.

Edit: I should point out that I don't find what you said to be a bad thing. I just think it is too absolutist to be practical.
I shouldn't really comment, but yea i still disagree, i mean yea there are exceptions, and exceptions do break my rule, but i meant it as a general case(no pun intended). I mean when you say that generalizing is a basic survival trait, your right, that doesn't mean you have to speak your generalizations, that's what i mean. You said it yourselves, there are more often than not more negative generalizations than positive, so when i was speaking generally about not using them, i think i was on point.
 

KOMega

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I think the underlying problem is that we make generalizations in life about everything.
We don't have time to sit down and deeply think about every single thought and action that occurs in everyday life.

While we all try to avoid generalizations, I think it's even more tactless to suddenly attack someone for using a generalization. A calm short explanation is a lot more tactful.
 

LetalisK

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Rosiv said:
You said it yourselves, there are more often than not more negative generalizations than positive, so when i was speaking generally about not using them, i think i was on point.
I'd just like to clarify that I said you're mainly thinking of negative generalizations, and that there are a lot of them to be fair, but not that generalizations are mainly negative(I didn't personally say either way on that point). Which is like...generalizception territory. Or something. XD
 

broca

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The main problem with the -isms (and many other concepts) is that there isn't on definitive definition for them; instead everyone uses the definition that they prefer (influenced by factors like ethnic, cultural, political and scientific background). For this reason alone you can never be sure if you are perceived as racist/sexist/ect, because you never know what the other person understands as racist/sexist/ect. And even if two people have the same definition of racism/sexism/ect, they can evaluate observed behavior completely different, as the evaluation of observed behavior is always based on past experience and therefor deeply subjective. That's not to say that there isn't behavior that most people would describe as racist/sexist/ect, but i think that very often the evaluation of behavior is subjective.

About the relationship between racism, stereotyping and cultural norms: imo stereotypes are assumptions about all people of a group that don't consider the individual differences between the individuals of the group (e.g. all hispanics eat rice). The basic assumption of a stereotype can be true or untrue (e.g. hispanics eat rice vs. americans are prude). Stereotypes also can be both positive or negative (e.g. all germans are hardworking vs. all germans are humorless). The evaluation of the stereotype can even change between individual persons (some people would consider "all americans are religious" as positive, others as negative). Often stereotypes develops from cultural norms or believes about cultural norms of a group (e.g. about religion or food), so that something that is or is assumed to be typical for many people of a group becomes something that is assumed of all people of the group. Over time, stereotypes often reflect a group less and less, as groups change (e.g. religiousness in the usa), while the stereotype doesn't. Stereotypes are normal and necessary human behavior, as no human could process the world without the mental shortcuts that are stereotypes.

But negative stereotypes have been shown to be deeply harmful. One prime example is racism: according to wikipedia "Racism is usually defined as views, practices and actions reflecting the belief that humanity is divided into distinct biological groups called races and that members of a certain race share certain attributes which make that group as a whole less desirable, more desirable, inferior, or superior." So racism is stereotyping because of "race" (usually in the sense of color of skin), whereat the stereotype is specifically that certain races are "better" or "worse" then others. In addition to stereotyping, the term "racism" also includes discrimination (the positive or negative behavior that results from the described stereotyping). So, in conlusion, (according to the wikipedia definition) racism is positive or negative behavior towards people of a "race" based on the believe that all members of that race are "better" or "worse" than others.

If we apply that definition to the example about rice that the OP gave, it is probably not racist, as it probably doesn't reflect the believe that hispanics are "better" or "worse" than other "races" nor does lead to a specific positive or negative behavior towards hispanics. Instead i would count this behavior as normal and unproblematic stereotyping, as it neither shows underlying racist believes nor has specific consequences in real life. Still, the other person clearly saw it as racist, so the interesting question would be what her definition of racism is.