Raid Easier in WoW Patch 4.3

[Frostbite3789]

I don't think Blizzard really figured out what people found exciting about their game in Vanilla and TBC...

There was an event between then and now, a pretty big one that had Blizzard joining forces with someone.

That someone being a company that is all about drawing in the biggest number of people possible, which means appealing to the lowest common denominator.

This is what we're seeing. Apparently with their powers combined they can't figure out for the life of them that, that isn't what always draws in the highest number of people.

 

[SenseOfTumour]

At least this will get rid of idiots in trade going "Link achievement and Item Level!!" That really pissed me off. Just because you don't have the achievement doesn't mean you don't know what you're doing. Same goes for Ilvl, it doesn't make up a players skill, sure a high ilvl helps but PuG's always seem to want the highest possible instead of just the required ilvl.

Not that I really care because I've given up on WoW, I was getting bored through WotLK and then Cata completely bored the shit out of me.

So much this.

I'm not against a basic item level check, but so many people only want people coming to their raid if they're already overgeared for it, seems there's both a fear of bringing anyone who might roll on some of the loot, and they also only want people who can do far more than their fair share.

I'd personally discount anyone at least 20-30 ilvl points just for being able to listen, follow basic instructions and not ragequit if someone dies.

I do however hope it'll mean we can get some practice in, being a casual guild, and when we've got people who understand the fights, we can then organise guild runs at standard (normal) difficulty for 10 at a time.

It's very difficult as a casual guild to even start raiding, a you end up with fresh 85s who want to learn the new content, and veterans who understandably don't want to sit thru a 10 minute explanation before each fight.

As for anyone stropping about it 'devaluing' anything, we're not getting the loot, achievements or any other rewards, ALL it's going to do is mean there's a lot more players who can operate to the required level needed to fill a raid spot. How on earth could that be a bad thing?

 

[Jumwa]

As for anyone stropping about it 'devaluing' anything, we're not getting the loot, achievements or any other rewards, ALL it's going to do is mean there's a lot more players who can operate to the required level needed to fill a raid spot. How on earth could that be a bad thing?

Something something casuals, blah blah faceroll, yadda yadda welfare-epics! Rabble rabble L2P!

In all seriousness, it's a good move, long over due. MMOs have been too long caught up in these old mindsets that seem to exist for no other reason than "That's how things are done". Though personally wouldn't be enough to get me back into WoW. The game has lost its luster to me, and I'll hold out for a MMO that's even a bit more casual friendly.

Gimme lots of soloable/duoable content to make my partner and I happy, so we don't have to commit our every spare moment to cultivating relationships with people to get much enjoyment out of the game.

 

[LJJ1991]

I quit WoW a while ago, but I did like to raid. In my opinion, as long as the people who work hard in their guild and overcome the "real" challenges of the raids get the achievements, better gear and the mounts/pets/whatnot, I think it's a good idea. I liked to raid, but never had the time to go with my guild. Not to mention, it took me a long time to catch up with their gear level. I think an easier version for the more casual player is a great idea... as long as it doesn't let them get ahead for doing less work.

 

[CatmanStu]

I've never really got the raiding mindset, it's always seemed like far more hassle than it's worth (all that stat balancing and memorizing boss stratagies makes me panic just thinking about it) but I have never understood why WoW has never implemented a system where you can go in as a spectator to finish quest strings (I would say no aggro unless you attack or heal) with no xp or rewards but at least you have finished the quest and seen the ending.

Maybe this wouldn't appeal to most but personally, I found WoW (when I played it) just as interesting watching good players battle as I did playing it myself.

 

[Ruwrak]

even -more- easy?


Glad I quit playing that game >.>

 

[Dendio]

I've always had success at normals and hard modes. Both modes are fun. Hard just takes more time to learn. For those who don't have time to wipe again and again this is a good way to see the content. For those with the time to learn the intricacies they get rewarded with better loot. Hats off to Blizzard for making quality of life changes like this. These changes are expensive and time consuming, but they make the game that much better for the masses.

 

[Sucal]

To be fair I haven't seen the achievement linking thing done ever since cata rolled out.

Please share what server your on. I swear, I had to bribe someone 2k to be taken through the entry level raids because my guild had declared themselves 'done' with those particular things.

 

[scw55]

If people want to raid, they join a guild. They build up social connections. Build up teamwork. Build trust. It's a magical thing. You raid. Did I mention that?

Why would anyone use this? So they can join a raid group with people they don't care about and vice versa?

You can argue some players "don't have time to join a guild and raid". Well, why don't you find a guild that accomodates your needs? There's a guild for pretty much anything in WoW.

Blizzard keep making stupid mistakes to cater for the imaginary fraction of the playerbase.

I hope they're enjoying the ride down their slippery slope.


I miss in old WoW where players were happy never seeing certain combat because they weren't good enough or didn't mind waiting patiently intill their guild got there. The players who weren't patient or happy where goddamn guild hoppers and saw it anyway due to the epic-guild ladder. The nostalgia rose-tinted glasses argument could be applied here, and would die instantly.

If you want a randomer for your guild's 10man run what's wrong with having someone in a capital city spamming trade? I can't imagine anyone who'd guildless who's thrive off waiting all day long in the raid finder looking for a group. I remember pugging on my druid in WOTLK. I wanted to rip my eyes out. This tool will only make people depressed more quickly.

You know what the biggest problem is with raiding, compared to dungeons and PvP? It requires planning, schedules and attendance. Many players that are "hardcore", also got a pretty busy RL. Thats one of the main reasons Ive loved arenas: its pick up and play. Each game lasts from 1-15 min (with a few exceptions) which means you can join and leave whenever it pleases you. Also, you play with 1-2 good friends (2v2 and 3v3) instead of a huge group where your flaw waste 9-24 other people's time.

A LFR tool will remove all that keeps me away from raiding: I can join whenever I want, I will always get a spot, there will always be room for friends, and I can leave whenever I want without a huge impact on the raid (they press "find one more", and in 1 min Im replaced). Spamming trade takes time, precious time, and replacing someone is an even greater hassle. Crying over someone getting just as cool toys as you cheaper is just elitist. You should have gotten used to that after the first 2 weeks of arena season 2, where every random guy and his dog had equal gear that you had bled for in season 1

I've never cried over people getting as cool toys as me. Given I havn't played WoW for 6months and plan to never play it again further kills your claim I'm not an elitist as a result. I don't understand why they try and balance around PvP given that there are better Player Vs. Player games/MMOs out there. Many classes have been destroyed for the sake of PvP balance (Feral druids got raped severly due to bleeds being too potent in PvP due to their damage and being unable to be dispelled).

 

[scw55]

If people want to raid, they join a guild. They build up social connections. Build up teamwork. Build trust. It's a magical thing. You raid. Did I mention that?

Why would anyone use this? So they can join a raid group with people they don't care about and vice versa?

You can argue some players "don't have time to join a guild and raid". Well, why don't you find a guild that accomodates your needs? There's a guild for pretty much anything in WoW.

Blizzard keep making stupid mistakes to cater for the imaginary fraction of the playerbase.

I hope they're enjoying the ride down their slippery slope.


I miss in old WoW where players were happy never seeing certain combat because they weren't good enough or didn't mind waiting patiently intill their guild got there. The players who weren't patient or happy where goddamn guild hoppers and saw it anyway due to the epic-guild ladder. The nostalgia rose-tinted glasses argument could be applied here, and would die instantly.

If you want a randomer for your guild's 10man run what's wrong with having someone in a capital city spamming trade? I can't imagine anyone who'd guildless who's thrive off waiting all day long in the raid finder looking for a group. I remember pugging on my druid in WOTLK. I wanted to rip my eyes out. This tool will only make people depressed more quickly.

You know what the biggest problem is with raiding, compared to dungeons and PvP? It requires planning, schedules and attendance. Many players that are "hardcore", also got a pretty busy RL. Thats one of the main reasons Ive loved arenas: its pick up and play. Each game lasts from 1-15 min (with a few exceptions) which means you can join and leave whenever it pleases you. Also, you play with 1-2 good friends (2v2 and 3v3) instead of a huge group where your flaw waste 9-24 other people's time.

A LFR tool will remove all that keeps me away from raiding: I can join whenever I want, I will always get a spot, there will always be room for friends, and I can leave whenever I want without a huge impact on the raid (they press "find one more", and in 1 min Im replaced). Spamming trade takes time, precious time, and replacing someone is an even greater hassle. Crying over someone getting just as cool toys as you cheaper is just elitist. You should have gotten used to that after the first 2 weeks of arena season 2, where every random guy and his dog had equal gear that you had bled for in season 1

I've never cried over people getting as cool toys as me. Given I havn't played WoW for 6months and plan to never play it again further kills your claim I'm not an elitist as a result. I don't understand why they try and balance around PvP given that there are better Player Vs. Player games/MMOs out there. Many classes have been destroyed for the sake of PvP balance (Feral druids got raped severly due to bleeds being too potent in PvP due to their damage and being unable to be dispelled).

Apologies then for missreading you.

Yet, I would rather hear you comment on my points regarding LFR tool than me missunderstanding your intent for disliking it.

Want a fun fact? Ferals are still OP in PvP, even after the nerfs Poor PvE ferals....

The LFR tool will only make disappointment occure easily and more often. Currently, people recruit for pugs manually and it takes ages. 90% of the time the raid will end prematurely with everyone with a negative attitude because frankly humanity as a species is shit. Someone might bail out after one wipe because they have a high elitism level. The raid leader might give up because he lacks a backbone. Someone might get bored of waiting and ninjapull the boss and leave. Loot dispute.

Basically. The LFR tool only removes waiting. Infact, the saturation of exposure to negative human contact is increased as it's easier to replace douchebags with more douchebags. This is a pesimistic view, but say, take a breakdown of douchbag player and non douchebag player, regardless of the % breakdown, you will still be exposed to more of them.

You can argue this will reinforce people wanting to join a guild to raid. Well... not with the whole "if you wait for x months for the next content patch you can buy some of the previous tier of gear" mentality. Humans are lazy. Humans want the easiest route to their epics. If it means that they cannot find a guild and wait for the current raid gear to be 'last seasons'' then they will do that.


I dislike this parallel of arena gear system to pve gear. With the arena, Blizzard needs to make some rewards to encourage people to take part beyond the sake of 'pvp for the hell of it'. Humans are greedy. As WoW is an RPG, a meaningful reward is an increase in stats; ie better PvP gear. There is a problem. Every season they need to add more powerful rewards to encourage the players who are fully arena geared up to keep competing. However, as the seasons progress, the entry level to compete against other players rises. For some reason, team ratings get reset and other mechanics. It means when you go in at base rating, there is a good chance you'll fight against players in UBERKILLU arena gear. This means with your basic pvp gear you'll get massacred. Skill can only take you so far; at the end of the day it's an RPG so numbers win ultimately. Therefore Blizzard's approach to the problem is letting people grind for last season's gear in Battlegrounds which has nothing to do with arena play what so ever.

This does not translate logically at all in PvE. PvE is *not* competative. It is if you consider progress battles for "world's first/server first/region first" or just general progression on the server. But these races are fought by well establish guilds or semi-competant guilds. If you're competing in PvE for self-reasons, like trying to get better gear than someone else then stop being so goddamn vain or stop that other play from down tredding you.

The enviroment of PvE is constant (inless Blizzard decides to nerf/buff encounters or buff/nerf classes or combat mechanics). Using WOTLK raids here, Naxx will always stay the same base difficulty (over-come by experience and gear) as will Ulduar. Thoes raids will always stay there and in spirit stay viable. There is no need to add seasonal gear to PvE. Infact seasonal gear makes Naxxaramas and Ulduar obsolete in raid instances whilst you're in the same expansion. There only reason why you'd run them for LOLRUNS/getting a unique looking piece of equipment/Legenedary or the Weekly Quest or badge grinding. The loot from thoes instances no longer have any value aside from pristege or aesphetics.

Blizzard keep doing things with the best intentions but the outcomes are usually tragic. They also seem to ignore backlash against negative changes. It's as though because so many people complain about the most pitiful things, that when someone genuinly negative occures Blizzard just thinks "here they go again, QQ moar".

In short, human nature makes the LFR tool a bad idea.

 

[Lyri]

Please share what server your on. I swear, I had to bribe someone 2k to be taken through the entry level raids because my guild had declared themselves 'done' with those particular things.

Saurfang EU.

That was the server I played on, I don't understand what you mean by entry level raids.

For Cata?
Post nerf BWD/BoT/To4W is a complete joke.

 

[Sucal]

Please share what server your on. I swear, I had to bribe someone 2k to be taken through the entry level raids because my guild had declared themselves 'done' with those particular things.

Saurfang EU.

That was the server I played on, I don't understand what you mean by entry level raids.

For Cata?
Post nerf BWD/BoT/To4W is a complete joke.

Oh yes I know that. Its just that none of them want to run those three, and everyone requires achieves or joining their guild. Which makes it annoying that one must surrender the level 25 perks to actually be able to use them.

 

[Lyri]

Oh yes I know that. Its just that none of them want to run those three, and everyone requires achieves or joining their guild. Which makes it annoying that one must surrender the level 25 perks to actually be able to use them.

If you're talking about actual raiding guilds who are doing progression runs in the FL, then yes I would imagine they would look for someone with experience in the past.
Generally though I never heard of none raiding guilds being so extreme, I was in a social/raiding guild and we got to the FL without hassle.

 

[scw55]

If people want to raid, they join a guild. They build up social connections. Build up teamwork. Build trust. It's a magical thing. You raid. Did I mention that?

Why would anyone use this? So they can join a raid group with people they don't care about and vice versa?

You can argue some players "don't have time to join a guild and raid". Well, why don't you find a guild that accomodates your needs? There's a guild for pretty much anything in WoW.

Blizzard keep making stupid mistakes to cater for the imaginary fraction of the playerbase.

I hope they're enjoying the ride down their slippery slope.


I miss in old WoW where players were happy never seeing certain combat because they weren't good enough or didn't mind waiting patiently intill their guild got there. The players who weren't patient or happy where goddamn guild hoppers and saw it anyway due to the epic-guild ladder. The nostalgia rose-tinted glasses argument could be applied here, and would die instantly.

If you want a randomer for your guild's 10man run what's wrong with having someone in a capital city spamming trade? I can't imagine anyone who'd guildless who's thrive off waiting all day long in the raid finder looking for a group. I remember pugging on my druid in WOTLK. I wanted to rip my eyes out. This tool will only make people depressed more quickly.

You know what the biggest problem is with raiding, compared to dungeons and PvP? It requires planning, schedules and attendance. Many players that are "hardcore", also got a pretty busy RL. Thats one of the main reasons Ive loved arenas: its pick up and play. Each game lasts from 1-15 min (with a few exceptions) which means you can join and leave whenever it pleases you. Also, you play with 1-2 good friends (2v2 and 3v3) instead of a huge group where your flaw waste 9-24 other people's time.

A LFR tool will remove all that keeps me away from raiding: I can join whenever I want, I will always get a spot, there will always be room for friends, and I can leave whenever I want without a huge impact on the raid (they press "find one more", and in 1 min Im replaced). Spamming trade takes time, precious time, and replacing someone is an even greater hassle. Crying over someone getting just as cool toys as you cheaper is just elitist. You should have gotten used to that after the first 2 weeks of arena season 2, where every random guy and his dog had equal gear that you had bled for in season 1

I've never cried over people getting as cool toys as me. Given I havn't played WoW for 6months and plan to never play it again further kills your claim I'm not an elitist as a result. I don't understand why they try and balance around PvP given that there are better Player Vs. Player games/MMOs out there. Many classes have been destroyed for the sake of PvP balance (Feral druids got raped severly due to bleeds being too potent in PvP due to their damage and being unable to be dispelled).

Apologies then for missreading you.

Yet, I would rather hear you comment on my points regarding LFR tool than me missunderstanding your intent for disliking it.

Want a fun fact? Ferals are still OP in PvP, even after the nerfs Poor PvE ferals....

The LFR tool will only make disappointment occure easily and more often. Currently, people recruit for pugs manually and it takes ages. 90% of the time the raid will end prematurely with everyone with a negative attitude because frankly humanity as a species is shit. Someone might bail out after one wipe because they have a high elitism level. The raid leader might give up because he lacks a backbone. Someone might get bored of waiting and ninjapull the boss and leave. Loot dispute.

Basically. The LFR tool only removes waiting. Infact, the saturation of exposure to negative human contact is increased as it's easier to replace douchebags with more douchebags. This is a pesimistic view, but say, take a breakdown of douchbag player and non douchebag player, regardless of the % breakdown, you will still be exposed to more of them.

You can argue this will reinforce people wanting to join a guild to raid. Well... not with the whole "if you wait for x months for the next content patch you can buy some of the previous tier of gear" mentality. Humans are lazy. Humans want the easiest route to their epics. If it means that they cannot find a guild and wait for the current raid gear to be 'last seasons'' then they will do that.


I dislike this parallel of arena gear system to pve gear. With the arena, Blizzard needs to make some rewards to encourage people to take part beyond the sake of 'pvp for the hell of it'. Humans are greedy. As WoW is an RPG, a meaningful reward is an increase in stats; ie better PvP gear. There is a problem. Every season they need to add more powerful rewards to encourage the players who are fully arena geared up to keep competing. However, as the seasons progress, the entry level to compete against other players rises. For some reason, team ratings get reset and other mechanics. It means when you go in at base rating, there is a good chance you'll fight against players in UBERKILLU arena gear. This means with your basic pvp gear you'll get massacred. Skill can only take you so far; at the end of the day it's an RPG so numbers win ultimately. Therefore Blizzard's approach to the problem is letting people grind for last season's gear in Battlegrounds which has nothing to do with arena play what so ever.

This does not translate logically at all in PvE. PvE is *not* competative. It is if you consider progress battles for "world's first/server first/region first" or just general progression on the server. But these races are fought by well establish guilds or semi-competant guilds. If you're competing in PvE for self-reasons, like trying to get better gear than someone else then stop being so goddamn vain or stop that other play from down tredding you.

The enviroment of PvE is constant (inless Blizzard decides to nerf/buff encounters or buff/nerf classes or combat mechanics). Using WOTLK raids here, Naxx will always stay the same base difficulty (over-come by experience and gear) as will Ulduar. Thoes raids will always stay there and in spirit stay viable. There is no need to add seasonal gear to PvE. Infact seasonal gear makes Naxxaramas and Ulduar obsolete in raid instances whilst you're in the same expansion. There only reason why you'd run them for LOLRUNS/getting a unique looking piece of equipment/Legenedary or the Weekly Quest or badge grinding. The loot from thoes instances no longer have any value aside from pristege or aesphetics.

Blizzard keep doing things with the best intentions but the outcomes are usually tragic. They also seem to ignore backlash against negative changes. It's as though because so many people complain about the most pitiful things, that when someone genuinly negative occures Blizzard just thinks "here they go again, QQ moar".

In short, human nature makes the LFR tool a bad idea.

A pessimistic view yes, but a valid one. I see where youre going, and I agree to a certain extent. I find more and more that Im not having fun while playing WoW. Like a good friend of mine stated: "Im in a worse mood when I log off than I was when I logged on", and a major reason for this are idiots WoW forces me to play with. If WoW let me play with my 1-3 friends only for all content, it wouldve been a much more fun game.

BUT (And thats a big but!), although a LFR tool will put me together with idiots more frequently, it removes the fact I have to deal with them AFTER the raid. They will be from a different server most likely (my server is very low populated) so it means when I leave, Im done with em. That is a good thing.

The tool is all in all a good implementation, but its a good chance it will promote dissapointment too. Im still possitive towards it though. LFR raids will be easier than normal mode, so that might relieve some frustration. We will see.

You've inadvertidly mentioned another draw back of this system. The LFM severs any real social connection with the players you're raiding with. As a result there is no real consequence for being a prick and leaving the raid. It means people will be more inclined to ragequit raid groups. You can leave the group cleanly (Like how with the LFG system where you have people ninja looting or rage quitting).You see it all the time in DotA clones where it's "no stats". There is no penalty for leaving the game, so people will leave when they want to (for the wrong reasons mostly).

I do apologise my pesimistic view on humanity in general but after playing Internet games during my growing up time, I've met many players who give me good reason to have this outlook.