[rant] Why argue about rules!?

[THAC0]

Not long ago i got back into Magic the Gathering. A few of my friends followed suit and before long we were playing away for hours and having lots of fun. It took about a week before the first argument over rules.

I like games (A LOT!!!) board games, card game, dice games, role playing games, you name it. So for me i approach games from a very mechanical standpoint and i like to understand the rules i am playing with. So, for magic i found the comprehensive most current official rules online (a hefty PDF) and have used that as my reference for just about everything. I haven't read every line of it, but i am familiar with it enough that i can find what i am looking for.

One of the guys i play with, and the source of every argument to date, tends to back his arguments up with "tournament rulings!!!!! RAAAR". Now, i have no idea where he is seeing these tournaments at, because i know he doesn't participate in tournaments, watch tournaments, or hang out with anyone who plays on a tournament level. But, I just don't think that a card game is important enough to justify calling my friend a liar over.

But i do respect rules, and when i know that the rules of the game say that i'm right, i will not back down. Now, i don't expect people to take my word for it, rather i will show them what the rules say about a particular point, which thus far has always been the same thing that i was saying.

At first this was good enough and most people have just started to defer to me for handling rule disputes, even in games i am not involved. But not this one guy. And the arguments between the two of have been becoming increasingly heated as the latest version of the official rules from the Wizards of the Coast website have not been in accord with his "tournament rulings!!!!!".

Now, i don't want to fight, and i don't want to have to set with my laptop open to the rules so i can justify every move i take, i just want to play cards where everyone understands and follows the rules. This type of stuff makes me want to just quit the game all together.

comments? questions? advice?

 

[ioxles]

What sort of rules is he arguing, that would be key to any solution.

 

[hypothetical fact]

It's best to just lay off the rule trip unless his rules become broken.
I don't play magic but here is the rulings of a single commonly played yugioh card: http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Card_Rulings:Shrink If MTG gets into this level of rule bitching then it just slows the game down and sucks out the fun for everyone.

 

[THAC0]

What sort of rules is he arguing, that would be key to any solution.

he said: that instant spells that provide mana, such Dark Ritual, actually add a number of "invisible land" that can be tapped at any point in the game.

He cast a spell which game him (i think) 2 black mana, but then didn't do anything with it (which confused me)and then on his next turn he announced that he was tapping all his land, including the "invisible land" he had got from the spell to play a card. I inform him that that is illegal. Argument ensues.

Actual rule: Mana that gets added to your mana pool vanishes at the end of the step or phase it was added unless it is spent. MtG Comprehensive Rules 2009, pg 9.

He said: that i fast effects can't be played after blockers have been declared. So, i attack with a creature, he blocks with a creature strong enough to kill my attacker. I cast a buff card on my attacker making it strong enough to kill his blocker and he informs me that that is illegal. Argument ensues.

Actual rule: Casting spells and activating abilities is the 5th step that happens after blockers get declared. Damage doesn't get assigned until after the 7th step. MtG Comprehensive Rules 2009, pg 55.

He said: (This was a big one) That a creature i controlled that allowed it to block any number of creatures, could not be used to block a creature with the shroud ability, because creatures with shroud can not be the targets of spells or abilities. I point out that unless an ability states that unless a spell or ability states that it is targeting a creature (or anything else) by use of the word "Target" (which my creatures blocking ability did not do) that shroud would have no effect. Epic argument ensues.

Actual Rules: "Just because an object or player is being affected by a spell or ability doesn?t make that object or player a target of that spell or ability. Unless that object or player is identified by the word ?target? in the text of that spell or ability, or the rule for that keyword ability, it is not a target." MtG Comprehensive Rules 2009, pg 55.

The argument went on after i showed him the rule with him saying that the card was still "implying" that that it was targeting the creature.

These are not little rules here, these are game bending.

 

[THAC0]

It's best to just lay off the rule trip unless his rules become broken.

they are.

 

[TaborMallory]

If he can't show or produce his precious tournament rulings!, all his arguments are invalid, and he needs to be told so.

From what I've read, it sounds like he's desperate to win at any cost. If I may ask, is he a sore loser? I've seen plenty of sore losers, and lots of them try to make up rules in their own favor just to win.

 

[Scrythe]

Those rules he's arguing are definitely not "tournament rules". Those are his own "house rules", and he should be informed of such.

I have a friend of mine who does this with board games. We usually add house rules to them (thus, turning them into drinking games), but he's the type that loves to change rules halfway through the game to sway it in his favor. It kinda defeats the purpose of a drinking game to begin with, considering that whoever wins, we all win.

 

[Altorin]

What sort of rules is he arguing, that would be key to any solution.

he said: that instant spell that provide mana, such Dark Ritual, actually add a number of "invisible land" that can be tapped at any point in the game.

your friend is a fucking moron. Unless the rules regarding instant cast mana spells have changed drastically since I stopped paying attention last year, then the only thing different about abilities which add mana is that they do not use The Stack to determine when they resolve, they just do. (You can't respond to someone tapping a Forest by destroying it).

Anything that adds mana to your mana pool does it when the effect resolves, be it tapping a land, or casting a spell which gives back mana.

retarded friend aside, "arguing over rules" is an integral part to a game like Magic. In fact, there are people who's profession is just knowing all of the rules and mediating arguments between players at tournaments.

 

[THAC0]

If I may ask, is he a sore loser?

a little. we have played a lot of board games together with a group of friends, and also role playing games. these are all cooperative games where the players work together, but he will tend to conveniently "forget" that a particular rules doesn't work in a way that favors him, and when he gets called out on it, he will tell us that we had been doing it like that before (when we had not). When no one remembers the past event he is talking about he will sort of reluctantly go along with it. A couple of other people in the group have mentioned it to me before, but its never been a big deal, just a little off putting.

but i guess with magic being competitive, it isn't as easy to get him to follow the rules.

 

[ioxles]

What sort of rules is he arguing, that would be key to any solution.

"he said: that instant spells that provide mana........
..........rules here, these are game bending.

Well the general consensus seems to be that your friend (and his imaginary rules) is a moron who hates to loose.

I think if you would think it worth your time you could try to educate him.

 

[Kiutu]

Meh, thats MTG for ya. We've played by some rules only to find out years later it was BREAKING them.

 

[Proteus214]

A friend of mine used to pull the same crap with sacrifice penalties where he would twist the logic so that he didn't have to sacrifice a creature because he didn't pay a certain penalty effect and "preventative sacrifice" where he would just sac any permanent of his to prevent some sort of negative effect that I had just cast. I honestly didn't care though, he may have beat me with his broken ass house rules, but I still won tournaments while playing by the actual rules.

 

[bushwhacker2k]

Well if you found a set of rules, it SHOULD apply to tournaments unless something would specify otherwise or it wasn't up to date. Other than determining which cards you can use, tournament rules really aren't that different. I recommend you find multiple different current rule sheets/books and then show them, if your friend persists then you may want to contact an actual tournament official for a rule book

 

[Supreme Unleaded]

Its a fucking card game, just give up and try to gain back the hours of your life you waisted on it.

Card games are never fun because of people like that, so i just never play them.