Rare... weren't very good developers.

Drathnoxis

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When I was kid I adored the Donkey Kong Country games and used to think Rareware was a kind of seal of quality! I also had Donkey Kong 64 and Banjo-Kazooie, but I never made it very far in the games.

Over the past couple years, though, I've been playing through Rare's 3D platformers and I've come to the realization that they just... aren't very good. They all seem to suffer from really janky controls. Your jumps are really floaty, and running is kind of slippery, and you always have to be at a standstill to do the special moves. You compare that to Mario 64 where jumps, attacks, and slides all flow into one another, and the simple act of moving around feels good.

I'm going to talk briefly about each of the games I've played to the end now:

Donkey Kong 64 - The best word to describe this game is tedious. You have to play through the entirety of each level no less than five times because each kong has their bananas scattered throughout. Often you have to do the exact same thing with each kong and run across the map to get a banana. Gameplay is broken up by near universally boring mini games. The controls are not good.

Banjo-Kazooie - I think it's better than DK64, but not by a whole lot. It's still pretty tedious, but at least you only have to do the levels once (as long as you don't fall down that one bloody bottomless pit and lose all your notes eleven million times!) Also it's not quite as long as DK64. The controls are really bad.

Conker's Bad Fur Day - This is what sparked the thread, since I just finished it. Actually, it's probably my favorite of the bunch, so that's saying something. The voice acting is weird as heck, but it's kind of charming in how juvenile the "mature content" is. The control is absolutely abysmal, though! Conker can't fall more than 5 feet without hurting himself, can't jump while carrying something, can hardly attack, and getting around is generally a chore. That isn't even talking about when he's drunk or hungover. Also there is a hoverboard mission where you hold up to go faster! The z button is completely unused here, and yet you have to hold up while trying to steer away from instant death with left and right! The game also has a habit of not giving any hints as to where you are supposed to go or what you are supposed to do. This wouldn't be bad if things didn't randomly become available at certain times or what you were supposed to do wasn't so bizarre, so I'd walk around to every area trying to find the one thing I haven't done yet that will open up the rest of the game. Thankfully the game is mercifully short, so I guess it kind of balances out.

I could have gone into much more detail on each game, but nobody wants to read that much. Yet despite all those glaring flaws, and being generally unfun to play, these games are celebrated classics and Rare had a glowing reputation before being devoured by Microsoft, what gives? Can anybody explain why these are actually good games?

For more topic, what do you think of Rare and Rareware games?
 

Dirty Hipsters

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I think part of the love that people have for a lot of these games is that people played them when they were quite young, and when you're young you don't have enough experience to know what is and is not quality.

Combine that with the fact that Rare operated when 3D was still really new and no one quite knew what to do with it, and you can see why people can forgive the bad (by modern standards) controls and movement. Yes, it's rough but it's one of the progenitors of everything we love now.

Hell, I'd say Banjo Kazooie holds up a hell of a lot better than something like Sonic Adventure.

Also, Perfect Dark was AMAZING for its time, so Rare gets a lot of my love for that.
 

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Drathnoxis said:
When I was kid I adored the Donkey Kong Country games and used to think Rareware was a kind of seal of quality! I also had Donkey Kong 64 and Banjo-Kazooie, but I never made it very far in the games.

Over the past couple years, though, I've been playing through Rare's 3D platformers and I've come to the realization that they just... aren't very good. They all seem to suffer from really janky controls. Your jumps are really floaty, and running is kind of slippery, and you always have to be at a standstill to do the special moves. You compare that to Mario 64 where jumps, attacks, and slides all flow into one another, and the simple act of moving around feels good.

I'm going to talk briefly about each of the games I've played to the end now:

Donkey Kong 64 - The best word to describe this game is tedious. You have to play through the entirety of each level no less than five times because each kong has their bananas scattered throughout. Often you have to do the exact same thing with each kong and run across the map to get a banana. Gameplay is broken up by near universally boring mini games. The controls are not good.

Banjo-Kazooie - I think it's better than DK64, but not by a whole lot. It's still pretty tedious, but at least you only have to do the levels once (as long as you don't fall down that one bloody bottomless pit and lose all your notes eleven million times!) Also it's not quite as long as DK64. The controls are really bad.

Conker's Bad Fur Day - This is what sparked the thread, since I just finished it. Actually, it's probably my favorite of the bunch, so that's saying something. The voice acting is weird as heck, but it's kind of charming in how juvenile the "mature content" is. The control is absolutely abysmal, though! Conker can't fall more than 5 feet without hurting himself, can't jump while carrying something, can hardly attack, and getting around is generally a chore. That isn't even talking about when he's drunk or hungover. Also there is a hoverboard mission where you hold up to go faster! The z button is completely unused here, and yet you have to hold up while trying to steer away from instant death with left and right! The game also has a habit of not giving any hints as to where you are supposed to go or what you are supposed to do. This wouldn't be bad if things didn't randomly become available at certain times or what you were supposed to do wasn't so bizarre, so I'd walk around to every area trying to find the one thing I haven't done yet that will open up the rest of the game. Thankfully the game is mercifully short, so I guess it kind of balances out.

I could have gone into much more detail on each game, but nobody wants to read that much. Yet despite all those glaring flaws, and being generally unfun to play, these games are celebrated classics and Rare had a glowing reputation before being devoured by Microsoft, what gives? Can anybody explain why these are actually good games?

For more topic, what do you think of Rare and Rareware games?
DK 64 & Banjo-Kazooie I never finished, and I never bothered Conker (I was done with N64 games by that point). I see Rare as an okay developer. I think a lot of the recognition is games from the 90s, the 3D ones included too. Especially if David Wise did the soundtrack; which he did for most of their library. Though Perfect Dark I only played at a Media Play a couple of times. Most of the original has gone elsewhere and are under Microsoft's mediocre thumb.

I rate the Rare games I played like this:

Battletoads - 5/10 (NES); 7/10 (Genesis). Everybody knows about the game-breaking bugs in the US version of the NES original.

Battletoads (GB) - 7/10. Better than the first game.

Battletoads in Battlemaniacs - 7/10. It's just a modified version of the first game

Battletaods Arcade/Super Battletoads - 8/10. The best BT game today, and even then it's obvious the game was rushed. This game has all three toads playable in the same title, other than the cross over with Double Dragon, they play differently from each other, awesome graphics, and gore.

Golden Eye An 8/10 back then, and a 7 by today's standards. That said, it is still one of the best uses of the James Bond licenses, and one hell of a fun shooter.

Killer Instinct 1 & 2 - One of the best fighting games of the 90s. Creative comba, awesome characters, and a killer soundtrack. I remember playing a lot of the first one in arcades, and spending hours on KI:Gold on the N64.
 

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Drathnoxis said:
Donkey Kong 64 - The best word to describe this game is tedious. You have to play through the entirety of each level no less than five times because each kong has their bananas scattered throughout. Often you have to do the exact same thing with each kong and run across the map to get a banana. Gameplay is broken up by near universally boring mini games. The controls are not good.
The thing about DK64 is your enjoyment of the game hinges entirely around whether you enjoy wandering around as each Kong. To people who enjoy DK64, the pleasure of the game is derived entirely from goofing around, collecting stuff. It's a sort of hypnotic, comfy loop. Also, there's a logic behind how each Kong's bananas are arranged. They tend to lead the player towards new areas, ones that oftentimes each Kong has unique access to. The minigames are hit and miss, but they provide variety, which is a big theme in Rare's N64 "platformer" games. Which, by the way, aren't really platformers. They have more in common with stuff like Assassin's Creed, where you roam a world and collect shit for the sake of collecting shit.

Drathnoxis said:
The game also has a habit of not giving any hints as to where you are supposed to go or what you are supposed to do.
Conker does tend to loosely telegraph things in cutscenes. The developer commentary talked about one cutscene was added simply because players kept going left to poo mountain instead of right to the barnyard area.


Drathnoxis said:
For more topic, what do you think of Rare and Rareware games?
DK64/Banjo/Jet Force Gemini/Star Fox Adventure all stem from a unified game design ethos. Where Ubisoft games have you climbing towers and climbing things and collecting items, these particular Rareware games have you collecting things. The entire game revolves around collecting things, so, like I said, you'd better hope the mere act of collecting things gives you orgasmic pleasure or you really won't like the games very much. Jet Force Gemini's Arkham Knight-style "must collect all Tribals to see the true ending" was something the lead dev regretted in hindsight.

Also, Rareware had a policy of making their games more difficult than their general playtesters could manage. (Although one of the lead devs was 101% DK64 every week or something like that.) So it's very likely stuff like Beaver Bother is their way of laughing at your suffering.

Conker is very different, because it is based around completing obtuse objectives, and the entire game is essentially a series of minigames mashed together. Collecting things plays very little role in the general design, compared to CARRYING things, which the game is very big on.

Anyway, the games industry owes a great deal to Rareware. Their games were extremely innovative. Their games featured technology which put most of their contemporaries to shame. They basically invented the over the should third person shooter camera with Conker. They invented the objective-based FPS game with GoldenEye. I think Perfect Dark still stands as the greatest first person shooter ever created.
 

Saelune

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N64 era Rare was great. They also made Viva Pinata. Everything else sucked.
 

sXeth

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Oh, they didn't handle the jump to 3d very well in the Donkey Kong (and friends) franchises particularly well. Then again, no one really did. Super Mario 64 was kind of an odd man out amidst a lot of awkward controls and questionable design.

They had a decent stream of stuff on Super (or even late NES) though, amidst a pile of licensed drek. Having the first succesful console FPS (before Xbox and Halo were even a whisper on the wind) isn't really something to brush off either.
 

DudeistBelieve

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I beat Conker a few months ago, and you're entirely right. If it wasn't for the humor, it was every bit of tedious. Banjo Kazooie I played a lot of too, afterwards, liked it quite a bit but that is because of what you said- the levels are short.

But in places they did some good things. GoldenEye is still a very good James Bond game.

I do find peoples love affair with Rare to be very over-rated. They did things differently, yes, but not exactly well.
 
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Maximum Bert

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I dunno I do not like them as much as a lot of people do but I have enjoyed some of their games.

I played some of their early stuff but did not really notice them until Battletoads on the NES which I loved up until the third level and then er yeah well screw that game. Killer Instinct was great fun sure it was no Capcom or SNK fighter but it was a decent and much more playable alternative to MK.

Then the 64 era came where they got most of their accolades and I only played Goldeneye and Perfect Dark both of which I really liked especially the latter multi player. I never tried their 3D platformers because Mario 64 put me off (first Mario platformer I actually strongly disliked). Then they got bought by MS and the wheels sorta fell off.

I will say they hold the dubious honour of making the game that has caused me to rage more than any other and that is DK country. Good lord I despised that game, even to this day if for some reason I want to get angry quickly all I have to do is think of that game.
 

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Problem with the assessment is that you've chosen three Rare games, all of them from the same generation. That's not really indicative of the developer's overall quality.

That said, I kind of agree for those examples. I enjoyed DK 64 back in the day, but it didn't leave a lasting impression. I certainly enjoyed Conker, but only specific bits of it (basically from the undead part onwards) - Conker is carried more by its writing than gameplay (though the multiplayer was a blast). Banjo-Kazooie was a golden gem for me though - how well it holds up is another matter.

Still, Rare was a net positive for me. It gave me GoldenEye, Perfect Dark, Diddy Kong Racing, Banjo-Tooie, and I had fun playing the DK Country games on a friend's SNES back in the day. In the scope of my personal experience, Rare deserves quite a bit of credit.
 

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you forgot goldeneye. it was most overrated game at the time it was released. it was not even good game. just got praised because its very first console FPS. Quake was released same year and Half life was years later. it play no better than mediocre shooters of today.
 

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B-Cell said:
you forgot goldeneye. it was most overrated game at the time it was released. it was not even good game. just got praised because its very first console FPS. Quake was released same year and Half life was years later. it play no better than mediocre shooters of today.
Quake was released one year before GoldenEye, Half-Life one year afterwards.

If you're going to pull the "back in ye olde days" routine, at least get the years right.
 

B-Cell_v1legacy

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Hawki said:
B-Cell said:
you forgot goldeneye. it was most overrated game at the time it was released. it was not even good game. just got praised because its very first console FPS. Quake was released same year and Half life was years later. it play no better than mediocre shooters of today.
Quake was released one year before GoldenEye, Half-Life one year afterwards.

If you're going to pull the "back in ye olde days" routine, at least get the years right.
doesnot matter because golden eye was bad compare to those. if it was released on PC it would be Huge faliure and recieve no more than 5/10.
 

pearcinator

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Rare was so good in the 90's/Early 00's. Sure, most of their games don't really hold up (gameplay-wise) today but the music, atmosphere and humour are still amazing. Grant Kirkhope's music particularly stands out and really makes Banjo Kazooie/Tooie unique. They could also seemingly tackle a whole range of genres with success.

Platformers - Banjo Kazooie, Banjo Tooie, DKC games, DK64, Conker's Bad Fur Day.

Racing - Diddy Kong Racing

FPS - Goldeneye 007, Perfect Dark

TPS - Jet Force Gemini

Fighting - Killer Instinct games

Beat-Em Ups - Battletoads, Grabbed by the Ghoulies

??? - Blast Corps

Granted, I haven't played several of those games and there are some that I have played that I wouldn't be able to play today (poor controls) but there are definitely some classics there!
 

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This is why I don't like to replay older games that I really liked. I remember them as being triumphs in videogaming, with brilliant graphics, and unrivaled gameplay, but then you go back and actually play the damn thing, and the game is absolutely nothing like you remember it being, and it is just a slow, ugly, horrible mess of a game that is a chore to play, where the input method or control scheme was designed by someone who was apparently an octopus. I'd rather remember the game being great than go back and tarnish that memory with a bad experience.

Say what you will about modern videogaming, but I have got to say, it feel nice to be able to aim with a mouse or analogue stick, as opposed to arrow keys or using a D-pad. Blimey.
 

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B-Cell said:
Hawki said:
B-Cell said:
you forgot goldeneye. it was most overrated game at the time it was released. it was not even good game. just got praised because its very first console FPS. Quake was released same year and Half life was years later. it play no better than mediocre shooters of today.
Quake was released one year before GoldenEye, Half-Life one year afterwards.

If you're going to pull the "back in ye olde days" routine, at least get the years right.
doesnot matter because golden eye was bad compare to those. if it was released on PC it would be Huge faliure and recieve no more than 5/10.
I can't compare GoldenEye to Quake or Half-Life, but as someone who played shooters of the era before GoldenEye, and shooters of the era after GoldenEye...yeah, no. PC or otherwise, GoldenEye deserved every praise it got at the time. Hasn't aged perfectly, but what has?

pearcinator said:
Rare was so good in the 90's/Early 00's. Sure, most of their games don't really hold up (gameplay-wise) today but the music, atmosphere and humour are still amazing. Grant Kirkhope's music particularly stands out and really makes Banjo Kazooie/Tooie unique. They could also seemingly tackle a whole range of genres with success.

Platformers - Banjo Kazooie, Banjo Tooie, DKC games, DK64, Conker's Bad Fur Day.

Racing - Diddy Kong Racing

FPS - Goldeneye 007, Perfect Dark

TPS - Jet Force Gemini

Fighting - Killer Instinct games

Beat-Em Ups - Battletoads, Grabbed by the Ghoulies

??? - Blast Corps

Granted, I haven't played several of those games and there are some that I have played that I wouldn't be able to play today (poor controls) but there are definitely some classics there!
Blast Corps is apparently an action-puzzle game. Not sure if it's a "puzzle" to work out how to destroy buildings as quickly as possible, but hey, go figure.

I think an important distinction to make with Jet Force Gemini is that while it's a TPS, it's also a platformer, and...yeah, the game suffers in that department unless you're playing as Lupus. It's telling that my favorite level in the game was SS Anubis - run and gun all the way. Never beat the game myself though - as soon as the game wanted me to collect every single tribal, I pretty much gave up. Rare's fetch quests were a boon in Banjo-Kazooie, but JFG? Not so much.

On the subject of Rare games, anyone played Kameo? It caught my eye at the time, but I never ended up getting it, and it was released in what appears to be the point where Rare started going downhill. Certainly they released Perfect Dark Zero at the same time. Ugh. :(
 

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Hawki said:
On the subject of Rare games, anyone played Kameo? It caught my eye at the time, but I never ended up getting it, and it was released in what appears to be the point where Rare started going downhill. Certainly they released Perfect Dark Zero at the same time. Ugh. :(
I played Kameo and thought it was great. You could probably also consider it an action-puzzle-platformer hybrid game. It's basically Rare's take on Zelda games. I think it's underrated to be honest but it had a rough development so I am surprised it turned out so good. Not really a classic though, it was lacking that 'Rareware' vibe I think.

Banjo Kazooie: Nuts and Bolts is also great if you can get past the baffling decision of making it a Banjo Kazooie game. It's a vehicular version of Minecraft. I made some really neat vehicles. My pride and joy was the 'Banjo Cannon' which was a giant cannon on wheels (with googly eyes) but it fired out Banjo and Kazooie. Perfect for one event called 'Unhappy Landings' where I actually hit the opposite wall of the map before touching the ground. Very cool.
 

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Rare were fantastic. I own the originals for the majority of their games, but even replaying them on Rare Replay, they are still among the best games out there and just as much a joy to play today as they were when they first came out, especially their N64 titles.
 

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Rare were great during the SNES/N64 era. In many cases, they were able to match Nintendo on their own platform game to game, and they did it based on skill and talent.

It is important to point out that they got into the console game by out-Nintendo Nintendo every single time: When Nintendo said their famicom could not be hacked, they did it and showed it to Nintendo, who was so impressed they invited them in. When Nintendo said the SNES could not compete in a 3D graphics market, they created Donkey Kong Country and Killer Instinct, two of the best selling games in the platform, that put the final nail in the competition with the Genesis and greatly expanded the life period of the SNES to make it competitive in a time when the Saturn and the Playstation were on the market. What is more, if you ask people what non-Nintendo games the N64 had that were worth something, most will point out to games made by Rare.

You can argue that their 20 years old games have aged well, and it is arguable. They stumbled with a lot of things because the genres were on their infancy (their games helped define the FPS genre, the TPS genre and the 3D platform genre); but to say they weren't good developers is laughable... like it or not, they were far and away from the competition.
 

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Johnny Novgorod said:
They made the DKC trilogy, which is more than enough for me.
Yeah, same. I wasn't a huge fan of their N64 platformers, but Donkey Kong Country? Easily some of the best platformers ever made and still hold up today. There's a reason the most recent (and successful) DK games have identical gameplay.