Rare... weren't very good developers.

[shrekfan246]

Donkey Kong 64 and Conker aren't particularly great games, but I personally hold Banjo up as the pinnacle of 3D action-platforming. I've tried playing Mario 64, many times. I've watched other people play it even more times. Maybe I'm just not into the Mario style of doing anything (I liked 3D World at least, and I like the idea of Galaxy but I'm not so hot on the execution), and I really wish I could "get" Mario 64, but I just don't think it's as good as people make it out to be. There are always a bit of tempered expectations that you should adopt when playing an older game, but I can still go back and play Banjo-Kazooie or Tooie and have just as much fun as I did when I was young.

Also, yeah, even on the N64 Rare made way more than just those games. Their relative quality today might be debatable, but Perfect Dark, GoldenEye, and Jet Force Gemini were all pretty revolutionary titles in their own right. I wouldn't say that Rare is held up as a bastion for greatness because all of their games were 100% amazing, but rather because they were one of the most prolific developers at the time and somehow the majority of their games weren't utterly garbage.

 

[Conner42]

I don't know, I think Banjo Kazooie and Tooie are actually really good. I did replay them on the 360 though, so they might have tweaked it a little as far as controls are concerned.

3D Platformers from the N64 era of aged pretty terribly. Mario 64 was one of the first games to actually get the camera right...and it sucks so badly upon a revisit.

My sense of humor has changed since the last time I've played Conquer and the game's humor was a bit too much for me. It's like South Park's shock value with none of the wit. Maybe I'd play it again but, my god...the controls we're awful. The camera in the game was terrible. Are these really the same guys behind Banjo Tooie?

I still like Goldeneye and Perfect Dark though. It's amazing how different console FPSs were back then. It seems so outdated by today's standards, even if you update the controls, but I liked how the games were a bit more open-world in their levels and there was a stealth element to it that made it a bit more interesting.

I have difficulty remembering how it really was back then, but, either I was a lot more patient as a kid or these games really were the best at the time. Every time I go back to play Mario 64, it's waaaaay harder than I remember it being. What does that say for games today? What will that mean for games in the future?

Maybe Rare was a good developer at the time. If nothing else, they were pretty influential.

 

[Hawki]

Are...are you actually trying to engage B-Cell in an intelligent discussion? You do know that he's Mr. "90% Of The Topics I Create Are Why A Thing Is Either The Most Overrated Or Underrated Thing Ever - And I Certainly Never Use Hyperbole - For No Reason Other Than Because I Said So" (wow...that's a really long title for a person :3)

Seriously though: you're wasting your time if you think he has anything of merit to add to any discussion on the quality of games. As I mentioned in the overly-long title I gave to him: he applies to the same school of "intelligent discussion tactics" as Winter Wyvern...which is to say they firmly assert that their arguments are clearly both valid and correct for reasons that equate to "because I said so, that's why."

Oh, I don't disagree with any of that. That said, I like to at least try. Either B-cell learns to have proper discussion, or by providing proper responses, a contrast continues to be established between his hyperbole and the posts of other users. Either way, I win.

 

[Joccaren]

Yeah, I replayed them recently myself. Still love them. Open world, mostly. A bunch of open worlds more like it, and they are linearly ordered, but only for the initial unlock, after which you can move back and forth between them. Exploration, the core appeal of the game, is also what the game is about and what you're rewarded for doing - by finding the items that unlock further exploration. Side quests are around, and they all directly contribute to the main quest by giving you more progression stuff. Every area is thoroughly different, with different challenges and gameplay so it doesn't get samey. Everything you do ends up with some purpose. There isn't a temple there you can explore to get a health refill at the end of; it directly contributes to you getting through the game, and everything is tied to the main plot so even when exploring and such you never feel like you're wasting your time; you're simply finding the way forward for the main plot.

Add to that the variety of gameplay and puzzles revolving around that gameplay to figure out, and honestly they deserve a lot of praise. Those styles of game don't much exist anymore, outside Zelda, yet were great for players who liked to explore and discover and solve puzzles - not in the Professor Layton style, but ones seemlessly melded with the world like Zelda games have.
Controls were wonky, but at that time which controls weren't. Overall they're much better games than most 'adventure' games these days are. Hopefully Yuka Laylee keeps the tradition going, and fixes up the few bits and pieces like controls that didn't really work.

 

[Igor-Rowan]

The thing about Rare is their balance of style and substance, that reached the pinacle in the N64 era.

When Donkey Kong Country first released, it was many people's introduction to the phrase "These graphics look good", but the second game of the trilogy has aged better than the others because it had so much going for it.

The Banjo-Kazooie hapenned, a kid-friendly looking game with jokes only adults would get, unlike the every-player game Mario 64. But much like many platformers that runned on the N64's single analog stick, it hasn't aged as well as other games.

I can't say much about Goldeneye because I don't have a history with it, but I've heard it set the standard for split-screen shooters despite the graphics.

But to me Rare's biggest headscratching moment was in Conker, from the very few I was able to find about that game before the big make-over of Bad Fur Day, it looked like a prediction of modern gaming: A visual style cinematic experince with player's input here and there, yet somehow it turned into Bad Fur Day. I mean, what happenned here? The game isn't bad, but the tone wasn't trying to prove anything to anyone. The comedy is great because it both South-parkes itself with many popular movies and kind-of satirizes the gaming industry of the time with the struggle of adult-based games with the cute and cartoony platformers (since this is no longer the case, many players who didn't play Conker during that time aren't gonna have the same feeling).

I can say that Rare's games had an impact on Nintendo games, as most of them feature some kind of scavanger hunt for collectibles. The irony here is Rare was always ahead of its time, but Playtonic plans of coming back to its roots where it wishes it hadn't left.

 

[Andy Shandy]

I'd disagree, and say that those games are products of their time. Not a lot of games from that era of early 3D gaming are easy to go back to now. They did well with the constraints of those machines.

I will say that I think their stuff with MS is better than their stuff with Nintendo - or at least I can enjoy it more now. The two main Viva Pinata games in particular are two of the best games of the past generation, and certainly two of the prettiest. Nuts and Bolts is also a great game, if not the Banjo-Threeie that most people wanted. Hell, they even managed to make a couple of fun games for the Kinect, a damn near impossibility.

So I can see why you may dislike playing those games now, but I would not say Rare is or was a bad developer.

 

[CaitSeith]

just got praised because its very first console FPS.

That's false. Doom was the first FPS in consoles. And if we go to console exclusives, Doom 64 was released first too.

 

[CaitSeith]

I'd disagree, and say that those games are products of their time. Not a lot of games from that era of early 3D gaming are easy to go back to now. They did well with the constraints of those machines.

I will say that I think their stuff with MS is better than their stuff with Nintendo - or at least I can enjoy it more now. The two main Viva Pinata games in particular are two of the best games of the past generation, and certainly two of the prettiest. Nuts and Bolts is also a great game, if not the Banjo-Threeie that most people wanted. Hell, they even managed to make a couple of fun games for the Kinect, a damn near impossibility.

So I can see why you may dislike playing those games now, but I would not say Rare is or was a bad developer.

It would be kinda ironic that in a couple of years, Nuts and Bolts was declared an underrated classic, and had its own group of fans.

 

[Drathnoxis]

Also, Rareware had a policy of making their games more difficult than their general playtesters could manage. (Although one of the lead devs was 101% DK64 every week or something like that.) So it's very likely stuff like Beaver Bother is their way of laughing at your suffering.

Don't say those words, you're giving me flashbacks!

*GET IN THE HOLE!!! WHY WON'T YOU GET IN THE HOLE??! NOOOOOOOOOOO!*

Conker does tend to loosely telegraph things in cutscenes. The developer commentary talked about one cutscene was added simply because players kept going left to poo mountain instead of right to the barnyard area.

Even so there were a few times I had to look at a walkthrough to figure out what I was supposed to do. One was I never knew that I could jump onto the top of Poo Mountain to get some money since the camera was so bad I couldn't even see the top and what I could see was like an 80 degree slope. Another was in the war chapter when the sergeant said he'd meet me at the boats, but what he actually meant was to go onto the little strip of beach, I spent a while pushing around the TNT guy before I looked it up. And then there was the part where you need to press A just before you bounce on the plant lady's boobs or else you won't go high enough.

It also didn't help that I assumed I'd be getting a power up or something that would let me deal with the guard dogfish, because the bad camera caused me to miss the lever that opens up the gear area when I was jumping from rope to rope.

Problem with the assessment is that you've chosen three Rare games, all of them from the same generation. That's not really indicative of the developer's overall quality.

I guess that's true. I do really like the 3 DKC games, so I guess that kind of balances out with my dislike of their 3D platformers. I dunno, maybe I'm just disallusioned that Rare aren't the absolutely phenomenal developers I thought they were when I was a kid.

3D Platformers from the N64 era of aged pretty terribly. Mario 64 was one of the first games to actually get the camera right...and it sucks so badly upon a revisit.

Really? I thought Mario 64 actually holds up really well. Mario's moveset is really fluid, and I don't remember having any major issues with the camera last time I replayed it.

you forgot goldeneye. it was most overrated game at the time it was released. it was not even good game. just got praised because its very first console FPS. Quake was released same year and Half life was years later. it play no better than mediocre shooters of today.

I didn't "forget" Goldeneye, I just didn't include it because I haven't played it very much. Of course, being a fps with only one analog stick the controls are abysmal by today's standards, but I don't think it's very fair to fault the game for that.

Rare was so good in the 90's/Early 00's. Sure, most of their games don't really hold up (gameplay-wise) today but the music, atmosphere and humour are still amazing. Grant Kirkhope's music particularly stands out and really makes Banjo Kazooie/Tooie unique.

The music is quite good, that's true. But, how much can good music and atmosphere hold up a platformer when the mechanics aren't very fun? Hmm, I should make a thread on the subject one of these days.

 

[Elijin]

you forgot goldeneye. it was most overrated game at the time it was released. it was not even good game. just got praised because its very first console FPS. Quake was released same year and Half life was years later. it play no better than mediocre shooters of today.

Quake was released one year before GoldenEye, Half-Life one year afterwards.

If you're going to pull the "back in ye olde days" routine, at least get the years right.

doesnot matter because golden eye was bad compare to those. if it was released on PC it would be Huge faliure and recieve no more than 5/10.

GoldenEye earned its stripes with a few friends on the couch next to you, having a bunch of silly fun.

I can understand why you wouldnt like it.

 

[Conner42]

Really? I thought Mario 64 actually holds up really well. Mario's moveset is really fluid, and I don't remember having any major issues with the camera last time I replayed it.

After getting used to it, it is manageable, but the camera seems to constantly fight against me. Maybe I'll go back and play it again. Mario does control quite nicely though.

I think what I'm thinking about the most of how the game was to me when I was a kid. I honestly have no memories of it being that hard. The camera was completely fine to me...something that I didn't really even think about as a kid.

It's probably been about a year since I've replayed these games, but I found the Banjo Kazooie games to be more enjoyable, which is probably a blasphemous statement for my younger self(I mean, look at my avatar), but I think Rare expanded on the better ideas of Mario 64.

 

[pearcinator]

Rare was so good in the 90's/Early 00's. Sure, most of their games don't really hold up (gameplay-wise) today but the music, atmosphere and humour are still amazing. Grant Kirkhope's music particularly stands out and really makes Banjo Kazooie/Tooie unique.

The music is quite good, that's true. But, how much can good music and atmosphere hold up a platformer when the mechanics aren't very fun? Hmm, I should make a thread on the subject one of these days.

Mechanics are great, particularly with Banjo Kazooie and Tooie. DK64 was floaty and a step in the wrong direction (collect all of the things was tiresome and the minigames weren't enjoyable...fuck you Beaver Bother!) and Conker kind of transformed into an action-shooter game later on so it probably wasn't as focused on platforming as the others.

Banjo games though had excellent mechanics! I especially love Banjo Tooie with it's world and levels that are connected to each other and not just a bunch of levels separated from the main map (like Kazooie and Mario) and the fact that you start the game with ALL the moves from Kazooie (a lesser game would have stripped them from you arbitrarily) and adds dozens more!

The controls are tight in the Banjo games and each level has a distinct style (with perfectly matching music) that makes you want to explore the world and discover new abilities and such. The midi-channel fading (I think that's what it's called) is rarely used today and is still very effective. Using different instruments playing the same tune when underwater or entering new areas was and still is a stroke of genius! Take Witchyworld in Tooie for example.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46D0rdasJDc[/youtube]

 

[sonicneedslovetoo]

Something that needs to be taken into consideration with games this early on into 3d before standardized controllers is what other games were doing at the time. I would advise taking a look at what are considered more "average" games and comparing their control schemes, camerawork etc. and then playing some truly awful early 3d games.

If you want a good example of controls that don't hold up I would point to Megaman Legends which requires you to press L and R to turn left and right. Or Bubsy 3d which overall is just a terrible terrible game. Contrasting stuff like that with what Rare was putting out on the N64 will give you a much better idea of why they are so loved.

 

[KoudelkaMorgan]

On N64 I played them all back in the day, but I only owned Banjo Kazooie. Out of them all it was the one I liked best thankfully enough. I also had DKC 1 and 2 on SNES.

Diddy Kong Racing was actually pretty good, except for the BS ai getting speed increases that exceeded your top speed by easily 800% at random. You could be in the lead the whole race, make no mistakes and still not only lose but almost get LAPPED by several other racers by the end of the race just because of one simple rule.

If you are far enough ahead to not see any other racers on screen even if you looked behind you, they automatically get sped up ludicrous speed. I've never played ANY other racing game that does that. It makes the Blue Shell in Mario Kart seem legit, because the person that used it doesn't get an unlimited super shroom on top of it for the rest of the race.

The best racing game I played on N64 was actually (VW) Beetle Adventure Racing. It didn't need to exist, and it certainly wasn't expected to be even competent, but it was awesome.

 

[EbonBehelit]

I actually played through the SNES/N64 Rare games I still own fairly recently:

Donkey Kong Country: Way harder than I remember, but also quite short. Very well polished platformer. Timeless classic.

Donkey Kong Country 2: Muddles perhaps a bit too much with the clean theming and mechanics of the original, but still a very competent game.

Donkey Kong Country 3: Visually weak. Even more muddled mechanically than 2. Never even finished this one.

Banjo-Kazooie: Fairly simple mechanically with strong world theming and level design - most worlds are built around a 'centrepiece' for easy navigation. Also relatively short, which makes for a compelling reason to replay later. Timeless classic.

Also it's not quite as long as DK64.

It's not even close to the length of DK64. We're talking like 10 vs 40 hours here... which is also the problem with...

Banjo-Tooie: Upon my replay I've grown to absolutely hate this game. Overcomplicated mechanics, with confusing, labyrinthine level design and poor theming (bar maybe Hailfire Peaks). The total shoe-in FPS sections kinda piss me off too.

The thing that really grinds my gears about Tooie however is the insane amount of running back and forth needed to get things done. Back and forth as Mumbo to touch a pad. Back and forth as the world's tranformation to hit a 'switch'. Back and forth as Banjo or Kazooie individually to perform a specific action. Often you'll be doing 3-4 trips back and forth to the same place as different characters to get a single Jiggy. Disgusting.

The N64 version's insane framerate problems also serve in making it totally unplayable.

DK64: Stronger visually than Tooie, but suffers from the same issues: the levels are even more confusing, there's even more running around as different characters to hit 'switches', and far too many of the Golden Bananas require winning stupid minigames over actual platforming challenges.

Jet Force Gemini: I love this game, despite the godawful controls. The visuals are nice, the music is nice, and the 'gunfeel' is amazing... mostly. The Tri-Rocket Launcher in particular is perhaps the most satisfying gun in any game ever.

...As for the games I haven't played through recently...

Goldeneye 007: I'll always have a soft spot for you, Goldeneye. It's too bad that your success opened the way for the modern console FPS.

Perfect Dark: I'd imagine this would still be pretty neat even by today's standards. Co-op and 4+ Deathmatch are pretty unplayable though (Framerate).

Starfox Adventures: You can stick your Bafomdads where the sun don't shine, thank you very much. A boring, unfinished mess of a game that'll see you finishing the rest of the game in the same timeframe it took you to get through the first quarter.

The game also gets Hijacked by Ganon (Andross) at the very end, who you then proceed to fight in an Arwing. Wanna know how much time you've spent in an Arwing by the end?

Maybe 20 minutes. Out of 15 hours. Baffling.

So yeah.....

Over the past couple years, though, I've been playing through Rare's 3D platformers and I've come to the realization that they just... aren't very good.

I sort of agree with you on this - bar Banjo-Kazooie of course - but not for the argument of controls. It's actually kinda unfair to compare the controls of any 3D platformer with Mario 64's movement suite.

 

[EbonBehelit]

Jet Force Gemini's Arkham Knight-style "must collect all Tribals to see the true ending" was something the lead dev regretted in hindsight.

It wasn't just to see the 'True' Ending: you literally couldn't reach the final world/boss without saving every single tribal in the game. Which was just as painful as it sounds, since tribals could die, sending you packing back to the entrance of the current stage to start over.

...and Rare had a penchant for putting them next to a type of enemy that would specifically target and kill them.

They basically invented the over the should third person shooter camera with Conker. They invented the objective-based FPS game with GoldenEye.

Neither of these statements are true. What Goldeneye did more-or-less pioneer, however, was the idea that a console FPS could be successful - a legacy that remains to this day.

I think Perfect Dark still stands as the greatest first person shooter ever created.

That's a funny way of spelling 'Metroid Prime'

 

[Kinitawowi]

Rare were on a different level before the Rare days; as Ultimate Play The Game they pretty much redefined gaming on the ZX Spectrum from black and white text adventures to colourful technical wizardry. (Still prefer Sabre Wulf and Alien 8 to Atic Atac and Knight Lore.)

 

[Hawki]

I think Perfect Dark still stands as the greatest first person shooter ever created.

That's a funny way of spelling 'Metroid Prime'

Being pedantic (because hell, why not?), I think Metroid Prime is more an adventure game with shooting in it (or "action adventure"). There's shooting in it, but Metroid being Metroid, that's not what you're there for, so to speak.

And the greatest FPS ever is Halo: Combat Evolved.

 

[Batou667]

I never saw the appeal of Rare. I think part of their popularity is the fact that they were one of the very few third party developers for the N64 so they had a lot of fanboys rabidly buying their stuff and insisting they could do no wrong. I remember a friend at the time trying to convince me that the N64 wasn't just for kids because "it has Conker's Bad Fur Day, and it's got swearing and everything".

Myself I never really played any Rare games, although Perfect Dark Zero is one of the few games that I couldn't manage to force myself to play more than a level of. It's terrible.

 

[Ambient_Malice]

They basically invented the over the should third person shooter camera with Conker. They invented the objective-based FPS game with GoldenEye.

Neither of these statements are true. What Goldeneye did more-or-less pioneer, however, was the idea that a console FPS could be successful - a legacy that remains to this day.

Can you name a third person shooter with an over the shoulder camera that predates Conker?