Regarding the Second Punic War...

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SckizoBoy

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OK, I'm so doing this... been thinking of starting such a thread for months now...

And yes, this is effectively an overglorifed 'vs' thread, so come at me!

Anyway: Hannibal vs Scipio?

No TLDR, but I've cut my piece up into... manageable chunks (it so could've been a hell of a lot longer, I'm so intellectually invested in this topic...). Feel free to criticise, I'll respond as best I can.

As a first point of comparison, this is rather unfair, but it is worth pointing out that comprehension of one?s enemies is a key step in the path to victory against them, whether in force of arms or otherwise. Of the two commanders, Scipio realised the resolve of the enemy city more quickly, though this may be unfair, because Carthage, as an economic power, relied on mercenaries over a citizen army. However, both cities were guilty of neglect against their premier commanders in the field. Hannibal was afforded a sum total of zero reinforcements from the Carthaginian Senate, and while Scipio was not so disparagingly treated, he was given command of defeated and dispirited soldiers. Yet both men did well with what they had.

Thus, it is less a case of which city was ?better? per se, and more which one was more obstinate...

Both men were noted for their charisma, which may be a rather obvious observation, but their qualities as leaders of men are rather different.

However, like Alexander, Hannibal inherited a great deal, namely the system and the army created by his father, Hamilcar. But, in any case it would?ve been difficult to command such an army as he had in Italy, so diverse as it was: Libyans; Numidians; Iberians of various tribes; Gauls of various tribe; Italians of various tribes; and his own cadre of Carthaginian officers. To say that it was prodigious of him to lead this motley band for sixteen years is awesome, especially since he is recorded as only understanding Punic and Greek.

On the other hand, Scipio inherited nothing but his father?s name and scepticism and was given command of not one, but two separate armies of generally war-weary and battered legions. His father and uncle died at Castulo and Ilorca, leaving the Roman presence at just two under-strength legions, reinforced by another ragtag bunch of soldiers (many of whom were the beaten survivors of Trebbia) when Scipio landed in Tarraco. And then, when given leave to prepare the invasion of Africa, Scipio was given an even more wretched force: the survivors of Cannae! And yet in each case, he turned both into strong and professional armies that remained unbeaten while he commanded. Only Sucro puts his qualities into question, and yet he dispelled the trouble before it came to a head, and it is difficult to justify how he can be faulted with it in the first place.

I don?t think I?ll sport with anyone?s intelligence here, because it is clear that Hannibal was the superior tactician in the war as his record attests. He cannot be challenged in the variation, quantity and quality of the tactics, tricks, ruses and stratagems that he used throughout the war. Ambuscades, encirclement, distraction and absolute use of geography prove him to be far above all to have come before (and I add Alexander to this list) and after, in all likelihood. I belittle Alexander not for the impression that his victories give, but the quality of the opposition. There were no multinational, disorganised or reluctant mobs that he faced in Italy, whose numerical superiority was undone by any lack of discipline. No, all were the rising legion with a common language and lead by men who were often career soldiers, not kings or emperors who lead by virtue of their position. This in itself earns Hannibal greater credit.

As for Scipio, if Hannibal were the consummate teacher, then Scipio was the consummate student, and the best one Hannibal had. But he was not so inflexible as to merely copy, he adapted and I?d even suggest that he improved them, most notably at Ilipa, a prime example of pro-active manoeuvre against a superior enemy. Though the quality of such tactics can be offset by Hannibal?s ability to read Varro?s character at Cannae. Still, Scipio had no small skill at assessing the mind of his enemies. But if there is one respect in which Scipio can be considered tactically superior, it is siege-craft, illustrated eminently by the storm of Carthago Nova. All of Hannibal?s sieges (or attempted sieges) were conventional or achieved by ?treachery? (a word I use somewhat lightly, here).

Regardless of how I compare their respective campaigns, I must give this to Scipio. Hannibal in Italy ? after Cannae, his activities were confined to southern Italy where he continued to obtain tactical victory after tactical victory, which did little except slowly erode his army, which was already small as it was (I refer of course to the core of Africans that he left Iberia with). Early in the war, every strategic move he made was a response to Roman movement. During the Fabian period, he had the initiative, but was well stifled, and was rendered incapable of making any incisive move against Rome. After Cannae, he failed to perform a strategic follow up, which remains one of the more confusing of his decisions, though the reasoning has already been alluded to.

Contrasting this against Scipio in Iberia, his initial army was less than half the size of Hannibal?s when he entered Cisalpine Gaul. His total forces never numbered more than fifty-thousand during his campaign here (or at all during the entire war). But the key difference was his use of his ?meagre? resources (a fact of which mirrored Hannibal?s own circumstances in the Roman hinterland). Each strike had motive, method and purpose and was followed up both morally and strategically, such that exploitation of each victory was total. Most criticism is levelled at his lack of pursuit after Baecula, but to assess it fairly, he was in the far south of Iberia, with almost three times his number of enemy soldiers within a couple days? forced march of his position, his lines of communication were tenuous so far from Carthago Nova and his northern Iberian allies, and it forced Hasdrubal (whose army, while not destroyed, was much diminished) to spend most of 207 recruiting among the Transalpine Gauls, giving Rome time enough to respond, even if it took some skill by Nero to carry it through. But regardless of one?s assessment of Baecula, each and every of Scipio?s tactical victories had strategic ramifications. The same cannot be said of Hannibal, whose later victories after 216 had little effect on the prosecution of the war, and after 210 or thereabouts, they had virtually no effect whatsoever.

This is another area of comparison that is very difficult to assess. On the one hand, Hannibal asked nothing that he would not do himself, while Scipio delegated tactical and operational commands to his subordinates, trusting them to carry out his will, which they did. Therefore, it is merely a case of deciding which form of generalship is superior. While both have their merits, Hannibal?s individual skill (for that is what it was: individual) allowed his army no room for errors, and had he fallen at any stage, it is difficult to say if anyone could take his place in holding his army together, let alone emulating his victories. However, he was one of the first generals to embrace the staff structure of the modern army, and it was with this system of delegating individual responsibilities of the army to trusted colleagues (including his younger brother Mago, a man called Hasdrubal who was his quartermaster general, and the Numidian Maharbal who commanded the African cavalry) that he coordinated so magnificent a catalogue of battlefield wins.

Even Scipio copied this, but unlike Hannibal, who commanded each and every engagement, kept his attention fixed purely on the grand strategic goals he had in mind. In Iberia, the prize was Gades, so when an army under Mago and Hanno appears around Numantia, instead of heading it off himself, he detaches Silanus to deal with it while he plans what would eventually be the campaign season culminating in Ilipa. Similarly, upon his invasion of Africa, he sends Laelius and Masinissa to finish Syphax off while he keeps his eye on Carthage.

It is therefore little surprise that in 202, leading into Zama, that Hannibal is now mentally exhausted and a decidedly cynical man, both in his attitude towards Rome, but also his own home city, while Scipio is just as cynical, but fresher of mind. Instead of concerning himself with everything, he leaves decidedly pettier affairs to his lieutenants.

And yet again, this is a difficult point of comparison as it raises a contentious point of what a good commander of soldiers should or should not be. With regard to statesmanship, Scipio deserves the greater accolade, for a number of reasons. I will disregard public popularity as that is neither here nor there.

Instead, to consider diplomatic action, let us observe the alliances they crafted. In Iberia, Scipio made allies from the Iberian tribes and kingdoms virtually without exception by use of clemency towards the Iberians in general and generosity towards the nobles. After Ilipa, a rebellion started that he succeeded in quelling, but he continued to be lenient, but when Andobales scorned this, Scipio turned from being the ?staff? of guidance, to the ?staff? of punishment. Hannibal, on the other hand, formed all of Magna Graecia and the southern Italics into an alliance, but he was unable to draw any real fighting strength from any of them, yet early Republican Roman history is littered with the struggles they had with the Samnites, Bruttians and Tarentines. But where were then during the later stages of the Second Punic War. They were conspicuous by their absence in any real quantity. Only in Macedon and Philip V did he have any military support, but apart from a token few columns of mercenaries, he contributed little except moral support.

Conversely, Scipio succeeded in tempting first Syphax (initiated by Laelius and almost carried through by weight of name alone) and then Masinissa to the Roman cause, the latter no doubt helped by the rescue and return of the young Massiva, the prince?s nephew. All?s fair in war, and charges of ?betrayal? levelled at Masinissa are far from justified (Gisco had just given the Massylian prince?s bride-to-be to Syphax, who then usurped his crown and exiled him, so it is only natural that he would throw his lot in with Rome).

I contend that while Scipio and Hannibal were primarily each other?s advseraries on the battlefield (as far as contemporary national heroes are concerned), they both considered Fabius (or rather, Fabius and his ilk) to be a greater hindrance on their war efforts than each other. And in both cases, it is the Fabian strategy that delays the implementation of their well-worked designs. However, in this case, like so many others, it is difficult to say who overcame the obstacle better, whether in the ease (or rather, difficulty) or the elegance with which it was done.

With Hannibal, it is on the field, and his tactical intricacies and delightful stratagems were no less the case when dealing with Fabius than it was dealing with the inordinate attention of the long succession of Roman consuls who came marching and left running. Ager Falernus is the pinnacle of this, and his ability to read, measure and assess his enemies (and their character) is well illustrated here, baiting Fabius with what was clearly a ?trick?, yet knowing that his enemy would do precisely what he wanted, that is to say, nothing. Thus, he was able to move army and camp under cover ot night towards Apulia. No mean feat for a column of over fifty thousand, not to mention horses, cattle and other beats of burden, as well as the recovery of the ?bait? detachment, all of which came at little cost (material and otherwise) to him, and indeed he simultaneously gave Fabius a bloody nose.

As for Scipio, his battle with Fabius was political, carried out within the Forum with words and rhetoric. Now, Fabius came from a family with a long line of successful consuls and being of an age that ?suited? the patrician senators, his words curried more favour purely from his age and lineage, as opposed to any personal qualities he may have had (though I will admit that he was an honourable man who sought to serve Rome as best he could, outlaying a fair proportion of his own personal fortune during the war). However, at this point in time, Hannibal was surrounded in Magna Graecia (albeit thinly), and much of the senate, Fabius in particular persisted in keeping their distance and promoting caution. But time had moved, the raw levies were blooded and many Roman commanders had developed the skills to succeed against the Carthaginians and the Barcas (if not necessarily Hannibal himself). See Claudius Nero, a name so associated with the capricious emperor of the first century, but the man who debatably won the Second Punic War for Rome is so easily forgotten, especially when one factors in his duping of Hannibal two days before the battle. Or Torquatus, whose victory at Caralis was less decisive strategically, but no less important in robbing Hannibal of reinforcements. I digress.

With the question of whether to take the fight to Carthage, Scipio was faced with many an argument and many an enemy within Rome (most notably Cato, Fabius? protege). They questioned his conduct at every turn, including the fiasco of Locris, which may be a mark against Scipio and worthy of expansion (though I view it as an accusation borne more from envy than anything else), but not for this comparison. And then there was the commission sent to Sicily to investigate his alleged excesses, but the tribunes returned with nothing but praise for the consul. And this commission is perhaps the most hypocritical moves taken in Roman history: the Senate first reluctantly gives him leave to plan his invasion, but gives him next to nothing to invade with (and indeed did not allow him to raise an appropriate consular army); but within months demanded to see something of worth from his initial ventures. By this time, he had a thoroughly professional army of two legions (the survivors of Cannae supplemented by volunteers and some of the Iberian veterans) and a fleet of forty quadriremes and quinqueremes commissioned at his own expense. To overcome Fabius? objections (most of which relate to keeping Hannibal occupied, the inherent risk of campaigning on foreign soil and defending Rome directly), Scipio looked to his successes in Iberia, the weariness of the Roman people, the cost of the war both to the land and those that tended it, the potential prize of realised imperial aspirations and above all, the effect of enemy soldiers upon home soil. Too long had Hannibal done as he wished within Italy and this had an undoubted effect on Rome?s citizens, regardless of class. It was high time that such treatment was visited upon Carthage. Let the lesson be well learned by Rome, but let the punishment she delivers be final. To this, there could be no denial.

Thus, the ways in which each man dealt with Fabius was skilful, but in ways so different from each other. But if superiority must be afforded, then it is to Scipio, who displayed ability in politics, where the tactical genius of Hannibal was what we have come to expect of him after Trebbia and Trasimene, and victories to the extent that he has no reason to prove himself in this way, while Scipio, with a loss of military autonomy marked by the end of his pro-consulship in Iberia, required a different set of wile to forward his strategic ends. Not bad for a man of barely thirty.

Here, I will skirt over the battle, as for my current thoughts, the result is not of any consequence. Instead, I look to the conduct of each commander and they conduct during the battle. Zama is so rare a battle where each army and each commander gave good account of their actions and decisions and no mistake or fault of tactics can be identified. Each man gave his all in this battle with the resources at his disposal. Hannibal used elephants as best they could be used, in the line of battle to shock, awe, disrupt and intimidate, but the threat was countered by Scipio?s dispositions, traps and clever use of skirmishers. Hannibal sought to nullify the inferiority in his cavalry arm and succeeded, leading Laelius and Masinissa away from the battle long enough that Scipio?s position with the infantry could be counted as almost untenable during the latter stages. And likewise, Scipio did the same with his infantry. Upon engagement of the first and second lines of each army, Scipio withdraws his entire line and bought time for his cavalry to return when he completely changed his dispositions and held them back to refresh themselves for the coming clash. Were the armies to be reversed in composition, be in no doubt that Hannibal would?ve won, and in precisely the same manner in which he lost in reality.

No, I consider, not the battle, but the campaign prior to the battle to be a better illustration of each man?s skills. First, moral, both on the Carthaginian people, and upon his own army. Scipio had defeated each army sent against him and only Hannibal?s remained. But with the violation of his peace terms, he pillaged the land, not only to supply his weakened army (losses incurred, though probably close to negligible, though a legion was still with Masinissa in and around Kirtha, and the loss of several weeks? worth of supplies destined for his army stripped bare by the Carthaginian citizenry). Hannibal, though, landed with twenty-four thousand of his Italian veterans, marched north and were doubtless not in want of resupply. And he was furnished with mercenaries and an African levy, while Scipio?s army was still divided, smaller and without a route of escape, far inland as it was. Knowing that the Carthaginian people would want immediate action taken, Scipio knew that Hannibal would be after him soon, so he marched west, which served to draw Hannibal from his economic and military base, Carthage, Scipio towards his, the Massylian capital, and vitally, his much needed reinforcements. And when he discovers Carthaginian scouts in his camp, he insolently shows them his strength, reading Hannibal?s reaction, a mixture of surprise and amusement at this display of supposed arrogance which prompted him to request an embassy. And the third incidence of Scipio?s skill was to buy more time and allow his army a superior preparation for battle. He marched his army to an isolated hill close to water, and Hannibal, to maintain contact and a presence of threat had to encamp on a distant hill that was far from a source of water, the same source of water that Scipio?s army used. Thus, Hannibal?s foragers were prone to attack, leaving his army close to dehydrated when battle loomed, by which time, Masinissa had arrived with much needed reinforcements. Each move served to negate Hannibal?s numerical superiority.

It is a pity that precious little is known about Hannibal as a man, though Laelius, via Polybius, gives us a fair detail of Scipio?s demeanour.

However, I will say that Hannibal was an honourable man, who, while hating Rome as a state and institution, respected his enemies, giving Paullus a funeral pyre and searching the blood-soaked shore of Trasimene for Flaminius? body. But his character was shown in his conduct after Zama, which demonstrated a certain dignity when he ejected a belligerent senator from session, reminding them (bordering on humiliating) of all the services he had rendered onto his country.

For Scipio, much of his character, I have already alluded to above, but I consider it a certain greatness of character in his ability to discern when to use moderation and severity in dealing with defeated foes. Severity against his erstwhile Iberian allies who rebelled, demanding more than he could give, or outright refusing any gratitude that may have come from mutual help, which served to quell the dissenters, intimidate potential dissenters and reward his loyal allies with cheap territorial expansion for their demesnes. But the tribes of Iberia were small and petty enough that any conflict they indulged in would be of little trouble to Rome upon their subjugation (with the possible exception of Cantabria). But Carthage was a different prospect, the most powerful state in western Africa, and still a threat even when defeated. Thus, how to treat them so as not to make an enemy of them, that is to say, how to end a war with a good peace: remove their military threat; but moderation in financial punishment. Herein, no seeds of future resentment were sown, but the immoderate Senate of Rome saw to their ruination.

Um... any takers?! Asia Minor? No?
 

RipRoaringWaterfowl

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First: The reason Hannibal didn't get any reinforcements was that he couldn't conquer a major Roman controlled/aligned port.

Second: Do you actually know what happened to the chaps after the war? Just curious, you didn't write much under "After The War".

Third: Hannibal was probably all around better. He used his few, weakened troops ( at least compared to when he started the expedition) and NO elephants to defeat the Romans again after again at Trebia, Trasimene, Carrae, and that other river in Cisalpine Gaul/North Italy. Had he got control of a major port and the resulting reinforcements and supplies, he could have marched on Rome a second time and besieged it. The Romans just failed and failed at trying to stop him, and the smart commander who tried to stop him couldn't face him in battle: he was removed before he could because his long term plan, which was a smart, guerilla campaign just took too long for the Senate.

Fourth: Zama was luck. Them elephants could've ran anywhere. They ended up running at Hannibal's men.
 

ClockworkPenguin

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I think the problem with this thread is that there is a lot of info to take in, especially since you are clearly very knowledgeable about this subject, whereas in R&P we can jump straight into a discussion we know absolutely naff all about.
 

Tanakh

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Caesar! Because neither Hannibal nor Scipio could bother to write his campaign's memoirs, so fuck them.

If i am forced to choose one, Scipio, because Cicero seem to have a good opinion on him and that dude was kickass, and because the logistics of Rome seemed better. Logistics win battles and warse before a single sword is swing.
 

Hawk of Battle

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So... what are we actually discussing here? I mean I know a fair bit about the 2nd Punic War already, so you'll forgive me for not reading ALL of your post, but are we discusisng like, who should have won? Who was the better leader/tactician?

Just a little confused.
 

SckizoBoy

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Lear said:
First: The reason Hannibal didn't get any reinforcements was that he couldn't conquer a major Roman controlled/aligned port.
The question therefore being: why didn't he (manage to) conquer a major port? (Conversely, Siege of Carthago Nova...)

Second: Do you actually know what happened to the chaps after the war? Just curious, you didn't write much under "After The War".
Well, my piece had gotten a little out of hand and this would've made it silly.

Anyway, after the war, Hannibal was elected as Suffete of Carthage (sort of a supreme magistrate) and by all accounts did well in that position. Within five years, the war indemnity was well on its way to being paid off and Carthage was already starting to prosper again, and no small credit to Hannibal. However, he was perhaps a little politically naive as he was muscled out very quickly and Rome was starting to look at him funny again. He fled to Tyre in around 195-ish before heading towards Antiochus III's court where he became a military adviser. Meanwhile, Scipio (through and with his cousin P Cornelius Scipio Nasica) sought to keep Carthage as a major(-ish) independent player in the Western Mediterranean, though for different reasons, but the same motivations. He also campaigned to have his legates elected as consul, which failed in 191 (with the start of the first Roman foray into Asia minor), but succeeded in 190 (Laelius being plebeian consul, his brother Lucius being patrician consul). He went with Lucius towards the Hellespont as strategic adviser and in a diplomatic capacity since Antiochus had lost at Thermopylae and P Scipio proposed peace at rather lenient terms (cost of the war, retire from Pergamese dominion etc. etc.). No luck, so Magnesia comes around. Prior to which is an interesting episode when Scipio and Hannibal encountered each other before a momentous battle for the second time, only this time as advisers, not commanders. By most accounts, they had a cordial, even friendly conversation (even though the Roman's immediate predecessor in Iberia was responsible for the other's brother's death, while the Carthaginian's same said brother was responsible for the other's father's and uncle's deaths). Hannibal invited Scipio to dinner, but it was declined because of impending hostilities and he acknowledged that it was in gesture only, but it was still quite symbolic. Anyway, as it happens, Scipio was ill during the battle, and his brother still won the battle and the eventual peace terms were quite harsh.

Third: Hannibal was probably all around better. He used his few, weakened troops ( at least compared to when he started the expedition) and NO elephants to defeat the Romans again after again at Trebia, Trasimene, Carrae, and that other river in Cisalpine Gaul/North Italy. Had he got control of a major port and the resulting reinforcements and supplies, he could have marched on Rome a second time and besieged it. The Romans just failed and failed at trying to stop him, and the smart commander who tried to stop him couldn't face him in battle: he was removed before he could because his long term plan, which was a smart, guerilla campaign just took too long for the Senate.
I think he tried to take after the Sicilian campaign a bit too much, but the problem is that a guerilla campaign is kind of useless when you want to go on the offensive. Re-read the 'The Strategists' section again, I find that there was little strategic motive to much of Hannibal's movements (except in a reactionary sense) once he moved south after Trasimene.

Still 'he used his few, weakened troops' rings a tad hollow when compared to Scipio's starting position in Iberia (he assumed command of two severely understrength legions, along with a paltry number of volunteers - not levy troops - and within five years, Spain was Rome's... well, almost).

Fourth: Zama was luck. Them elephants could've ran anywhere. They ended up running at Hannibal's men.
I don't think so... African elephants were relatively small, so they would only have had a driver and perhaps a pseudo-saddle on the back for a spearman, so they were unable to take as much punishment as their Asian cousins. And across the Roman line, trumpets were blasted at the elephants for several minutes which did the spooking. Though it was the velites who did the damage, throwing javelins at them and some got close enough to slit their tendons (hence my point about their size and endurance). Of course, this did a number on the velites and they were the worst mauled arm of the Roman force (out of 2500 fatalities - Polybius, the vast majority were velites, the hastati and principes casualties were mostly wounded), and by numbers there were roughly twelve hundred velites per legion (total approx four and a half thousand, if we take campaign losses into account) against eighty elephants, so that's a lot of javelins the beasties have to endure.

Besides, even if the elephants did run back into the Carthaginian line, it hardly affected their performance in the infantry fight, and horses are easily frightened by elephants so I'd hazard a guess that no more than half a dozen rampaged into their cavalry. As I mention, if Scipio and Hannibal commanded the other army, the same army would be victorious and in pretty much exactly the same way, since both men had a head for tricks, traps and tactics.
 

SckizoBoy

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Tanakh said:
Because neither Hannibal nor Scipio could bother to write his campaign's memoirs, so fuck them.
Actually they did... and both in Greek, weirdly (or not...).

Hannibal's 'memoirs' (I say memoirs, it was a bit of a dig at the Romans before he left Italy) were written, well, as I say, just before he left Italy. When Rome finally recaptured the south (Bruttium), they found the tablets he wrote and destroyed them, unsurprisingly.

As for Scipio, whatever he wrote has been lost, and his later life is largely unknown to the extent that no-one knows where he was buried, what he died of (because it sure as hell wasn't old age), or even where he died (probably Liternum, but no-one really knows).
 

silver wolf009

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I'm pretty sure history has handed this one to Hannibal, even though he did lose.

I'm going to throw my vote his way too. Why? Because the man was good at what he did, and Scipo's tactic, as I remember it, was to avoid large scale confrontation with Hannibal, and rather opt to roam around, causing trouble for him while never fighting his army.

Least, that's how I remember it being told to me.
 

Esotera

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Well, he took on the Romans & won battle after battle. I don't really know that much about the finer historical points even after reading all that, but you've got to respect someone who can go against the might of the Roman Empire successfully.

I remember a quote 'Hannibal knew how to gain a victory, but not how to use it'. Would this be a fair description?
 

Tanakh

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SckizoBoy said:
In history, i adhere to the "pics or gtfo" school of thought; without the actual memoirs i have nothing but the battle recount between the two, wich is clear Scipio > Hannibal. But you are talking to a guy that doubts the historical exsistence of Christ, for chist sake.

Esotera said:
might of the Roman Empire successfully.
That would indeed be impressive, given that he died more than a century before the Roman Empire even exsisted.

Also this:
Hawk of Battle said:
who should have won? Who was the better leader/tactician?

Just a little confused.
They fought, one won in the end, what are we discussing? Who would won on a ring? On SC II? On chess?
 

SckizoBoy

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silver wolf009 said:
I'm going to throw my vote his way too. Why? Because the man was good at what he did, and Scipo's tactic, as I remember it, was to avoid large scale confrontation with Hannibal, and rather opt to roam around, causing trouble for him while never fighting his army.
Not through any particular fault of his own (rf Scipio... he asked for the Iberian command... ostensibly for revenge, since both his father and uncle were betrayed/killed at Upper Baetis) and political wrangling gave command to others in southern Italy.

Technically, the first engagement between Scipio and Hannibal was the siege of Locris, which Scipio won, though it was just a large skirmish (couple thousand on each side)... little known fact there. Avoidance is a valid strategy, hell that's what the Romans did throughout most of the war in Italy. But it was usage of that avoidance to give an advantage that allowed Scipio the opportunity to win at Zama (maneuvering in the African interior and biding his time and constantly needling Hannibal both militarily and psychologically).

DVS BSTrD said:
No siege equipment and no engineers to build or operate them.
The thing is, he was quite aware of this (or at least this is presumed in retrospect), so why did he not factor in this need before hand, or develop a strategy to counteract his lack of siegecraft capability?

Tanakh said:
In history, i adhere to the "pics or gtfo" school of thought; without the actual memoirs i have nothing but the battle recount between the two, wich is clear Scipio > Hannibal. But you are talking to a guy that doubts the historical exsistence of Christ, for chist sake.
LOL, in some cases, then I'm surprised you believe anything of antiquities history...(!) Anyway, all of what we know about them comes from Senatorial transcripts, consular correspondence and the recollections of Gaius Laelius (Scipio's principal legate) to Polybius in about 160. Polybius is probably the only reliable primary source we have for the Second Punic War as he was alive just after that time and went around collating stuff for his Histories.

DVS BSTrD said:
I heard that he asked to be buried outside the boundaries of the Roman Empire. He was supposedly angry at the Romans for chasing Hannibal to Greece.
Yeah, his only really known quote was "Ungrateful country, you will not even have my bones." And to that end, no-one (even contemporary) knew where he was buried.
 

BathorysGraveland

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I would have to say Hannibal myself. Like Pyrrhus before him and Geiseric after him, he rendered Rome trembling and came close to defeating them entirely. Hannibal did it better than those two as well, or if better is not the right word - more significant. It's pretty amazing how he pulled it off after all and his mastery of battlefield tactics and ambushes. If he had conquered that one important obstacle - taking Rome itself - then one needs to wonder just how different the world would be today. It really was that close.

EDIT: Though I guess it needs to be said that none of those three faced Rome at her height. But still, even in the earlier and later periods of Roman history, they were no pushover.
 

Albino Boo

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Jun 14, 2010
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SckizoBoy said:
I don't think so... African elephants were relatively small, so they would only have had a driver and perhaps a pseudo-saddle on the back for a spearman, so they were unable to take as much punishment as their Asian cousins.

I read somewhere that the Elephants that the Carthaginian used were a separate species from the African elephant. They were even smaller again than African elephants.


On the whole I would have to say Scipio was the better general. Both faced similar problems. Their respective armies were made of disparate elements and both were effectively leaders of a collation each part with different aims. The big difference is that Scipio managed to turn tactical victories into strategic ones. I think the closest modern parallel is between Grant and Lee. Even though Grant won its Lee that gets the profile.