[Relationship-topic] Do women take the initiative in starting a relationship?

[Hochmeister]

1) Depends entirely on your and her situation. If you really want her in particular keeping at it for months or even years might be worth it, but it also depends on how serious and long term her issues are. The problem is that there's a chance you'll waste a lot of time on her and miss out on other opportunities. It sounds like you're in a quasi-relationship now, so I'd let that develop for a while, assess how you feel about the situation, and re-check her feelings on the matter.

2a) No, you should still try to move it forward, just make sure to give her some extra room and that she shows interest in building or maintaining your relationship as well.

2b) I'm sure they exist, but in my experience are extremely rare.

3) Your guess is probably better than mine.

Your situation reminds me a bit of my last relationship; met a woman who I liked, asked her out, got semi-accepted. After a couple months of going out I realized that I was the only one really putting effort into our relationship. Talked to her about it and got a "wait a bit/not serious right not" response. Waited some more and when nothing changed broke it off. I don't regret the time I spent with her, but am much happier now that it's over.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

My point is that I feel this chap shouldn't stand around and do nothing if he feels this way, and that - from experience and history - women tend to open up easier to men they have a psychical bond with.

Your logic is backwards.

Women tend to be more romantically available for men they are physically attracted to. IE, the sex didn't make the woman more open to a relationship, her attraction did. The sex was a symptom of that same attraction, not its cause.

For example:

Woman A finds Man B attractive. Woman A indicates (via body language) this attraction. Man B sleeps with Woman A. Afterwards, Man B and Woman A become romantically involved.

Woman C does not find Man D attractive, but she finds him pleasant. She is willing to hang around with Man D and have fun, but does not indicate any interest in sleeping with him or dating him. Thus Man D does not sleep with Woman C and they remain friends.

Man B had sex and got a relationship while Man D did not and did not, thus your observations. However, the sex was not the deciding factor - the woman's initial attraction was. This is why the "Friend Zone" is a myth - because it assumes that being labeled "friend" is somehow caused by the man making a mistake rather than by the man simply not being an attractive partner to the woman.

You made it sound like the sex would somehow manipulate the woman into a relationship. That isn't going to happen. And it makes us sound like some sort of sex-emotion vending machines, at best. Put the cock in and love comes out.

....

... wow, that was a sentence. I'd delete it and rephrase, but I'm too amused by it, so the horrible sentence stands.

Ahem. Anyway...

Having read the rest of your post this is what I was basically getting at.

Really? Because your original post really sounded like your advice was "fuck her til she loves you". Hence my date-rapey comment.

 

[DoctorObviously]

I will try to answer some questions so to give you guys a little more insight. Not all questions, but those that I feel matter most. I just started out with a couple of simple questions and this somehow turned into a confusing mess. However:

And it makes us sound like some sort of sex-emotion vending machines, at best. Put the cock in and love comes out.

Having read the rest of your post this is what I was basically getting at.

Really? Because your original post really sounded like your advice was "fuck her til she loves you". Hence my date-rapey comment.

is one of the most amusing things I have read in a long time. Let's get to it.

To

.

: I have read your posts in full and I must congratulate you in being this succesful in relationships. If these methods work for you, then, by all means, more power to you! As for me, however, I am not so fortunate. Life is already more difficult for me than it is for others. Over the past seven years I have gotten three 'No's', never had a 'Yes' and this is my first: "It certainly doesn't leave me cold." and I attribute that answer to her shyness and fear of emotions. Because life can never give me a simple straightforward answer, I have NEVER, EVER been in this situation before. This is a very closed person that I cannot break open on command. To me, that means all I can do is indeed wait for her to get a stable life and just plain lots of time. I'll try to see her weekly, and we each take turns to invite each other. There is nothing more can do, as Colour Scientist put it best.

"If DoctorObviously does nothing but wait and talk I don;t think he'll get anywhere."

What exactly do you suggest I do? Go to the movies and... what? Kiss her? You don't ask a gardener to build a rocket. To you, I must sound like the most dull bachelor in the history of ever.

Even if your suggested method would work with this kind of person, I still wouldn't do it because it just isn't how I am. It's too direct. Being the dominant, fearless Alpha male doesn't interest me. I told her the blunt truth; that I loved her, and how childish and stupid that may sound to everybody here, that took a great deal of strength from me. I didn't touch her. The word 'Rapist' has already lost it's meaning by enough children on Facebook, thank you very much. If being myself would result in losing her, because I wasn't, in your wording, 'seeing to' her, then... *shrugs*. Sorry for being too considerate, I guess?

The problem is that everybody here lacks four months of knowledge of her personality and that's nobody's fault. So this is why I do appreciate you taking the time to stick around and read what's on this thread.

To

.

First, what's a holding pattern?

"I will admit to being unclear on exactly what you and she are "waiting" on at this point."

As I described in my original post, she made it clear that she needed time and wanted to have a "stable" life first, she has just graduated and is furiously looking for a job as teacher. What is your definition of dating, though? Would you call what me and her are doing right now dating?

"what exactly is your issue at this point?"

I was just looking for simple advice, in the hope that it would clear my head a bit. I just don't know what to do in a situation like this. I know so little about this stuff. There is no real guide I can just look to for instructions. Every single person is so frustratingly different that I constantly have to think differently for them. It's maddening.

"Oh - have you and she kissed yet? You said it didn't happen in the car, but has it happened elsewhere?"

Nope. Just like Klagnut you talk about this as if going out to buy bread. Colour Scientist seems to be the only one who I agree with most.

 

[FalloutJack]

1) How much time can you give to a person in this kind of scenario, should I even paste a number on it?

2a) Should I take a complete back seat when it comes to moving this relationship forward? In a sense, I've shot all my bullets and there is nothing I can do now, right?

2b) Do women even ever take the reins when it comes to relationships or is it just a fairy tale that all men should take the charge?

Side question: 3) When I told her, were a couple of tears -not waterfalls- an indicator of failure or success?

{1} I can't put a number on it. My girlfriend and I were...complicated. She had had relationship issues that I particularly hated her ex for, and I didn't want to possibly screw up what I had with her already, which was a good friendship of years. So, I made a few passing remarks in a joking fashion, testing waters without actually risking much. Results were dubious, nothing definite. Well, nothing ventured, nothing gained, in this case. But I let her go abnout her life. It was healthier for her. However, there came a time where if I didn't say something, I'd lose her and regret it for the rest of my life. So, I took a chance and it worked. Later, I found out she'd been deciding between me and a friend of mine, so you never really know.

{2A} When a gunslinger's out of bullets, he's still a gunslinger. What you have to do is find new ammo and aim for a different target. The thing you want is to be able to be there when you're needed the most. Shoot straight, don't waiver, and when the time is right, you'll hit the target you want or know that it was never in your grasp for sure. Take the above answer in reference to that. I felt I wasn't even ready when I spoke my true feelings, but there just wasn't any more time.

{2B} If anything's a flipping story, it's the way mine ended. All true, but sounding a bit hokey when you think about it. So, I guess what you take from that is that the stereotype and the divergence FROM that stereotype both happen. Some women like to take charge, others don't want to, and some...are complex and want to be taken so that they're affirmed that they are in turn needed. I can't tell you which one this is or if there's another kind I'm not even considering.

{3} She may have been surprised to be wanted. You've made your intentions known. You don't have the power of the same impact later. Mine came at a very sensitive moment, but not everybody's gonna have those. My advice is from Answer One. Be there for her, someone to depend upon and confide in. Be a gentleman, don't look like you're reaching. I may have only my relationship to draw on for advice specifically on this topic, but I'm generally good FOR advice, as I have also uplifted low-self-esteemers, prevented suicides, and helped with harsh real-life decisions.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

As I described in my original post, she made it clear that she needed time and wanted to have a "stable" life first, she has just graduated and is furiously looking for a job as teacher. What is your definition of dating, though? Would you call what me and her are doing right now dating?

Perhaps I was confused - in your edit, you said you had your next date planned. I took that to mean you and she were going on dates.

If two people are going out on dates, they are dating. They may not be dating exclusively or seriously, but they are dating.

You didn't describe the exact nature of your dates, so I can't say if I consider what you are doing dating or not. Also, even if you did, it would really depend on the couple involved.

I was just looking for simple advice, in the hope that it would clear my head a bit. I just don't know what to do in a situation like this. I know so little about this stuff. There is no real guide I can just look to for instructions. Every single person is so frustratingly different that I constantly have to think differently for them. It's maddening.

Oh, I think you took a negative connotation from my comment that I did not intend. I didn't mean issue like a bad thing - I just wasn't sure what you were worried about. If you are going out on dates, then you are in a romantic relationship of some sort. It might be a very casual one, but if both you and she define what you are doing as dates, then you are in a relationship - however casual.

To me, that says she's interested. She needs time to get her life in order before she gets serious (so give it to her) but she wants to proceed.

Nope. Just like Klagnut you talk about this as if going out to buy bread. Colour Scientist seems to be the only one who I agree with most.

A kiss is far more casual than full sex. You mentioned "next date" so, again, I was uncertain what was involved.

In any case, if Color Scientist sounds good to you, then go with her advice. It is excellent advice.

My point about kissing is that taking things slowly can actually be a lot of fun. If you haven't kissed yet (and if she isn't ready) then don't rush into it. Enjoy whatever it is you are currently doing.

 

[aba1]

As I described in my original post, she made it clear that she needed time and wanted to have a "stable" life first, she has just graduated and is furiously looking for a job as teacher. What is your definition of dating, though? Would you call what me and her are doing right now dating?

Perhaps I was confused - in your edit, you said you had your next date planned. I took that to mean you and she were going on dates.

If two people are going out on dates, they are dating. They may not be dating exclusively or seriously, but they are dating.

You didn't describe the exact nature of your dates, so I can't say if I consider what you are doing dating or not. Also, even if you did, it would really depend on the couple involved.

I was just looking for simple advice, in the hope that it would clear my head a bit. I just don't know what to do in a situation like this. I know so little about this stuff. There is no real guide I can just look to for instructions. Every single person is so frustratingly different that I constantly have to think differently for them. It's maddening.

Oh, I think you took a negative connotation from my comment that I did not intend. I didn't mean issue like a bad thing - I just wasn't sure what you were worried about. If you are going out on dates, then you are in a romantic relationship of some sort. It might be a very casual one, but if both you and she define what you are doing as dates, then you are in a relationship - however casual.

To me, that says she's interested. She needs time to get her life in order before she gets serious (so give it to her) but she wants to proceed.

Nope. Just like Klagnut you talk about this as if going out to buy bread. Colour Scientist seems to be the only one who I agree with most.

A kiss is far more casual than full sex. You mentioned "next date" so, again, I was uncertain what was involved.

In any case, if Color Scientist sounds good to you, then go with her advice. It is excellent advice.

My point about kissing is that taking things slowly can actually be a lot of fun. If you haven't kissed yet (and if she isn't ready) then don't rush into it. Enjoy whatever it is you are currently doing.

I have had a few heated arguments with you in the past but what you said here is directly applicable to a similar situation I am in and has given me some great perspective and seems like great advice so thanks ^^.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

I have had a few heated arguments with you in the past but what you said here is directly applicable to a similar situation I am in and has given me some great perspective and seems like great advice so thanks ^^.

Thanks! I'm glad to help!

... also, I can't remember what we argued about. Probably best you don't remind me so I can just head out with a smile on my face feeling awesome about my advice-giving powers. ^^

 

[aba1]

I have had a few heated arguments with you in the past but what you said here is directly applicable to a similar situation I am in and has given me some great perspective and seems like great advice so thanks ^^.

Thanks! I'm glad to help!

... also, I can't remember what we argued about. Probably best you don't remind me so I can just head out with a smile on my face feeling awesome about my advice-giving powers. ^^

Ahh I don't really remember the exact subject anyways I just remember it was the kinda argument where we were splitting hairs practically which is why I remember it happening. Anywho ya thanks for the advice I think it will help A LOT.

 

[Ryleh]

2b) Some definitely do. I'm very picky so I like to select my men rather than them selecting me. Only trouble is that guys don't always respond well to girls making the first move, so I tend to make them think that they were in to me first. Jedi mind tricks and all that.

This makes me sad. Due to my shyness (im quite the opposite in rela life than on the net) i will never make the first move and would highly value a girl that would. but due to thinking like this the chacnes of this will be severely lowered. sigh.

Awwww no not at all! If a girl really wants you she'll find a way of getting things going, even if it's really subtle. That is unless you act so shy that you give the impression that you're not interested in her at all. I have a friend who had a crush on a chick for aaaaages, but he never even hinted at his feelings. She was in to him but she thought he didn't feel the same so she moved on and found someone else. As long as you make your feelings known she may just make that first move!

 

[Strazdas]

2b) Some definitely do. I'm very picky so I like to select my men rather than them selecting me. Only trouble is that guys don't always respond well to girls making the first move, so I tend to make them think that they were in to me first. Jedi mind tricks and all that.

This makes me sad. Due to my shyness (im quite the opposite in rela life than on the net) i will never make the first move and would highly value a girl that would. but due to thinking like this the chacnes of this will be severely lowered. sigh.

Awwww no not at all! If a girl really wants you she'll find a way of getting things going, even if it's really subtle. That is unless you act so shy that you give the impression that you're not interested in her at all. I have a friend who had a crush on a chick for aaaaages, but he never even hinted at his feelings. She was in to him but she thought he didn't feel the same so she moved on and found someone else. As long as you make your feelings known she may just make that first move!

Thats kinda the thing. Yesterday i was sitting between two very good looking woman. what did i do? whip out my phone and watched a movie. i am unable to find a non-creepy way to make my feelings known.

 

[Ryleh]

2b) Some definitely do. I'm very picky so I like to select my men rather than them selecting me. Only trouble is that guys don't always respond well to girls making the first move, so I tend to make them think that they were in to me first. Jedi mind tricks and all that.

This makes me sad. Due to my shyness (im quite the opposite in rela life than on the net) i will never make the first move and would highly value a girl that would. but due to thinking like this the chacnes of this will be severely lowered. sigh.

Awwww no not at all! If a girl really wants you she'll find a way of getting things going, even if it's really subtle. That is unless you act so shy that you give the impression that you're not interested in her at all. I have a friend who had a crush on a chick for aaaaages, but he never even hinted at his feelings. She was in to him but she thought he didn't feel the same so she moved on and found someone else. As long as you make your feelings known she may just make that first move!

Thats kinda the thing. Yesterday i was sitting between two very good looking woman. what did i do? whip out my phone and watched a movie. i am unable to find a non-creepy way to make my feelings known.

Eeeerh, I kinda meant more like women you know rather than attractive strangers. If you don't know them well enough to start conversation then you probably don't know enough about them to make a move either.

 

[Auron225]

2b) I don't have an answer to that but it's a good question I've often wondered myself. I don't know of any relationships in which it happened due to the womans initiative - even if she wanted it happen just as much as the guy did.

 

[BitterLemon]

2b) I don't have an answer to that but it's a good question I've often wondered myself. I don't know of any relationships in which it happened due to the womans initiative - even if she wanted it happen just as much as the guy did.

I had a female friend who was commited and I had a small crush on her, but never had much hope because of her relationship. One day, when we were hanging around only the two of us, she held my hand and came very close to me. I got a little scared because I thought that she was trying to cheat her boyfriend with me and kinda of got away from her, gave some excuses and went home. Later, she sent me an email saying that she had broken up with her bf cause she was in love with me and didn't had time to explain when I ran away like an idiot.

The next time we met was in a friend's birthday party and even though I knew she was into me, I was a little nervous and didn't know what to do, since we were friends for years and everyone was there and would be a big surprise if we kissed out of the blue and... not giving a fuck, she grabbed me in the middle of the living room in front of everybody and gave me a very deep kiss. All my friends were "WTF!! Look!! YEAH!!...........Erm... well.... whatever, leave them alone, they won't stop kissing".

We stayed together for more than 7 years. She said that wanted to kiss me so much all those years we were friends and that I was way too slow and stupid to realize and do something about it, so she took the initiative like a boss. And she's quite reserved and a shy person, not some wild outgoing party animal. So yeah... girls take initiative.

 

[Abomination]

I've been in two relationships where the woman sought me out. It was so alien for the first one I had no idea what was going on... I thought she was trying to sell me something and this was just her buttering me up.

Physically though I've always made the first "definate" move. Girls might have given me a sign initially but that's always been the current culture. Woman signs, man interperates. If a man signs he's frequently viewed as a freak, if a woman signs it's flirtation.

 

[Ihateregistering1]

To put this scenario ridiculously short, I've met somebody about four months ago and developed feelings for her. About two weeks ago I've made these feelings known to her. She was very flattered by it, telling me that "it certainly doesn't leave me cold.". Because she really dislikes talking about deep feelings, there was a slight crack in her voice. She did say that she's still in the building of a stable life (working hours, hobby's and whatnot) and that she need a lot of time to let a relationship such as this build, obviously.

EDIT: Context on question 3. A good friend has told me that her emotional crack really bothers him. He doesn't really believe in the concept of 'tears of happiness'. However, my counter-argument was that she hasn't rejected me on a text message or e-mail since, and we have seen each other multiple times since those two weeks (with success) and already have a next 'date' planned.

My questions are:

1) How much time can you give to a person in this kind of scenario, should I even paste a number on it?

2a) Should I take a complete back seat when it comes to moving this relationship forward? In a sense, I've shot all my bullets and there is nothing I can do now, right?

2b) Do women even ever take the reins when it comes to relationships or is it just a fairy tale that all men should take the charge?

Side question: 3) When I told her, were a couple of tears -not waterfalls- an indicator of failure or success?

Sorry, but I have to play Devil's advocate here, and bear in mind that there is never a universal answer when it comes to women, relationships, etc., since everyone is different.

However, in my experience, if a woman genuinely wants to be in a relationship with you, she's not going to pass up the opportunity to do so with "oh well I need time to build stability", or "I'm just not ready". I'm not saying it CAN'T happen, but I wouldn't bet on it.

My advice would be that you've already said your piece and she knows how you feel, so don't sit on the sideline and just wait for her to say "Ok now I'm ready!". Go out, meet other girls, see other people. If she comes back and says she wants a relationship, great, if not, you've already met other people.

As for the "taking the reins" thing. As a general rule, guys are still expected to take the lead in this department, but there are plenty of women nowadays who will do it. No idea if she's one of them or not.

 

[Battenberg]

1) If you already have a next date coming up I'm not sure what you'd be giving her time before doing but I don't think there's going to be a set number either way, just give her as much time and personal space as you think seems right and maybe let her know she's dictating the rate your reltaonship advances at (assuming you're not one of those people that always wants 'the power' in your relationship).

2a) Pretty much see 1). Certainly don't leave everything up to her or refuse to act at all or you might give her the wrong impression and make her think you're losing interest.

2b) It would be ridiculous to expect a black or white answer here, different women are going to act differently so of course some will take the reigns and some won't. I would say that there's probably still a 'traditional' attitude in society that the man should take control in a relationship but it's kind of outdated and by no means representative of all women (or all men obviously).

3) If you've got another date lined up I'd say it's a good sign. If someone doesn't like being asked so much that they cry I can't see why they'd go out with that person.

 

[BitterLemon]

2b) I don't have an answer to that but it's a good question I've often wondered myself. I don't know of any relationships in which it happened due to the womans initiative - even if she wanted it happen just as much as the guy did.

I had a female friend who was commited and I had a small crush on her, but never had much hope because of her relationship. One day, when we were hanging around only the two of us, she held my hand and came very close to me. I got a little scared because I thought that she was trying to cheat her boyfriend with me and kinda of got away from her, gave some excuses and went home. Later, she sent me an email saying that she had broken up with her bf cause she was in love with me and didn't had time to explain when I ran away like an idiot.

The next time we met was in a friend's birthday party and even though I knew she was into me, I was a little nervous and didn't know what to do, since we were friends for years and everyone was there and would be a big surprise if we kissed out of the blue and... not giving a fuck, she grabbed me in the middle of the living room in front of everybody and gave me a very deep kiss. All my friends were "WTF!! Look!! YEAH!!...........Erm... well.... whatever, leave them alone, they won't stop kissing".

We stayed together for more than 7 years. She said that wanted to kiss me so much all those years we were friends and that I was way too slow and stupid to realize and do something about it, so she took the initiative like a boss. And she's quite reserved and a shy person, not some wild outgoing party animal. So yeah... girls take initiative.

By committed did you just mean in a committed relationship? I originally read the first sentence and thought you'd meant to a mental ward but it doesn't seem to make sense in context after I read it all.

A committed relationship XD. I'm sorry, english is not my native language, so forgive me for awkward words and spelling mistakes.

 

[Blood Brain Barrier]

Sorry, but I have to play Devil's advocate here, and bear in mind that there is never a universal answer when it comes to women, relationships, etc., since everyone is different.

But everyone being different doesn't rule out a universal answer. All men have different penises but we're still able to say "men have penises" and to indicate the general shape and structure. We're able to give labels to beings called "men" and "women" and to describe to some extent what they look like and how they behave, even though no two are alike. I don't believe anyone's arrived at an appropriate description of human behavior or of the sexes that would come close to the accuracy of our current physical descriptions, but that just means we haven't reached it yet. We will soon enough.

 

[sweetylnumb]

Well if by take the reins in a relationship you count getting drunk and jumping on a dude and later getting drunk again and expressing your undying love for him, then hell yeah.

Been a year and we're still together, by the way...

 

[Caiphus]

Eeeerh, I kinda meant more like women you know rather than attractive strangers. If you don't know them well enough to start conversation then you probably don't know enough about them to make a move either.

"Hi there, you look bored. Have you seen the magic trick where you make a sausage disappear into your body?"

60% of the time, that works every time.