Removed

Recommended Videos

HellsingerAngel

New member
Jul 6, 2008
602
0
0
DeadpanLunatic said:
This strikes me as a very weird thing to say either way. Say somebody accidentally bumps into you in the street. Happens sometimes, especially in crowded spots, and it's generally no big deal. Now you're alone in the streets except for this one other person, who makes a beeline for you just to walk into you, and rudely takes off. Superficially nothing is different, certainly the end result of both cases is that you've been bumped into, but do you mean to tell me the fact that in the second case the guy clearly wanted to annoy you of all people and went out of his way to achieve that doesn't irk you in the slightest?
To be fair, that's a flawed example. Ganking is an intended course of action. A better example would be to say that you're walking down an alley alone and someone coming towards you bumps into you because causing you grief will make him happier. A few moments later, a second person does the exact same thing but because you have blonde hair and that person just loathes people with blonde hair and wants to make their lives miserable. Both actions cause the aggressor to feel better and the victim to feel worse. Is there really a point to saying one is more acceptable than the other? Both cause the victim to be grieved and both are only for the personal gain of the aggressor. Both are equally bad, though arguably more so aggressor #1 because his act is just evil for the sake of evil, where as aggressor #2 at least has grounds for a discussion as the grief is identifiable.

OT: This article seemed promising but made me sad at the end. First and foremost, I'm not sure why questioning the credentials of someone is a bad thing. Isn't that what we're supposed to do before taking in the full breadth of a study? I mean, I could construct a study of equal worth this evening about how women are inferior gamers to men and get it published if credentials weren't a factor. I think it's a good thing that people are curious about the source of what they're about to ingest to see if it's the real deal or just another trash study done to skew the hearts and minds of people in this on going flame war.

The second, and worst, part of the article is the ending. While it doesn't completely discredit what's been said, it certainly changes the entire perspective of the article. Treating Shrine like a five year-old child is just petty and only goes to prove that the author is no better than Shrine himself. I know it's meant to be taken with a grain of salt but it's disgusting that for the entire article you praise the higher road and then stoop down to the sub-basement of mockery at the end to get that one last kidney shot in. In short, the article wraps up by mimicking the types of behaviours it spent debasing which then creates a paradox of hypocrisy.

In the end, everyone needs someone like Shrine. If people like him never existed, we'd never question our philosophies or affirm them as correct. Opposition is a driving force in our day to day lives and having a misogynist or two floating around will drive that many more women to achieve great things because someone simply said they couldn't. Creating articles like these, to me, is just another argument of "why doesn't everyone like me?" People are going to hate you just for being you but that doesn't mean it's right or wrong. If the women of the internet are confident they will be a driving force in the future without having to have these lone champions carving a path through all the men that are uncomfortable with them roaming about and making Chuck Norris jokes in The Barrens of Azeroth. I think Miss Ardent put it best when talking about women in the video games industry being prevalent when she said the best thing any women in the business can do is simply do her job to the best of her abilities and people will notice how great they are and I believe that to be true. Dramatic theatrics only serves to rile the forces within to reenact the deplorable behaviour you aim to avoid instead of simply being present and proving you're here to stay simply by playing by (most of) the same rules.
 

TAGM

New member
Dec 16, 2008
407
0
0
DeadpanLunatic said:
Things have slowed down since the end of Sarkeesian's Kickstarter campaign, but gamers remain doubtful. People have gone on to question her credentials, wondering whether she's a real gamer or a real academic - next you'll tell me you?re not even convinced she's a real person.
Ok, stop.
I'll agree there are issues with how females in the gaming culture are treated. I'll agree that Sarkeesian got a lot of flak. Everything else this guy says is, at the very least, debatable, if not pretty much outright true.

But to say that everyone who questions her abilities as an academic are all just doing it out of fear and loathing because "She mite take mah videagaems away!" is akin to thinking anyone who kills a cockroach is doing it because they're evil nasty snake sympathizers. As in, Not true in any sense.
You want proof, go look for the various YouTube videos pointing out how she basically manipulated the comment sections to siphon off hate speech to a place she wanted (Or at the very least seemed to), how her other arguments have basically held no real merit, and how she at the very least seems to have the academic integrity of a 5 year old.

And how's that for an irony - The article mentions, among other things, how:
DeadpanLunatic said:
Fear is an undeniably powerful motivation, but it's also irrational. It drives you towards rash decisions based more on crude instincts than conscious thought. It poisons any attempt of reasonable discussion.
And then actively goes on to poison an attempt to discuss Sarkeesian by dismissing the other point of view as all based on fear.
Nice way to prove a point, I guess.
Here, lemme use his infallible logic for you on that point, or at least how the logic looks to me from the article;
Clearly he's doing this because he's fearful of his games being ruined by those filthy sexists! I mean, there's just NO other explanation what-so-ever, like, I dunno, empathy with women or just not wanting to be a dick, he's CLEARLY just doing it because he's a feminist sympathizer!
 

Xanadu84

New member
Apr 9, 2008
2,946
0
0
Samasson said:
Xanadu84 said:
I think the extent of this anti-women mentality is...well, I hesitate to say blown out of proportion, but it is not the beast a lot of people say it is.
I think to some extent you may be right based on the fact that the Tropes vs. Women Kickstarter absolutely shattered its fundraising goal. However, it is important to examine such things anyway given that just because an anti-woman mentality is not overt does not mean that is does not exist. But you do raise a fair objection to the backlash towards the overt anti-women gamers.
And I did go into that in my post. It is a very important topic to discuss, especially because though the majority of us jump on the opportunity to bash the truly vile sexists in our ranks, all we are doing is burning straw men. There are problems with the way that girls are treated in games, and the subtle problems are much more problematic then the, "Get back in the kitchen" jokes. Gamers as a culture are going through this sort of identity crisis as more and more mainstream players filter in, and as genres and design philosophies grow and vary. As a result, a lot of the attempts to retain an identity become arbitrary and unnecessary, and a lot of people don't even realize that they are imposing these gates more harshly on women. It doesn't help that the old mantra of, "Sex sells" can make it difficult to distinguish between a girl gamer who happens to be attractive and a cynical marketing ploy by an industry that itself ignores the female demographic.
 

Agent Cross

Died And Got Better
Jan 3, 2011
636
0
0
DeadpanLunatic said:
[HEADING=1]Fear Is the Mind-Killer[/HEADING]
I loved that novel as a kid, and it's one of my favorite works of science-fiction. That being said, and this is just some friendly criticism. Don't use that quote. Scrap it. Unless you are going for irony.
 

knight steel

New member
Jul 6, 2009
1,793
0
0
DIRECTED TOWARDS THE GANKER [in the link]:
Look inside
Look inside your tiny mind
Now look a bit harder
Cause we're so uninspired, so sick and tired of all the hatred you harbor

So you say
It's not okay to be gay
Well I think you're just evil
You're just some racist who can't tie my laces
Your point of view is medieval

Fuck you
Fuck you very, very much
Cause we hate what you do
And we hate your whole crew
So please don't stay in touch

Fuck you
Fuck you very, very much
Cause your words don't translate
And it's getting quite late
So please don't stay in touch

Do you get
Do you get a little kick out of being slow minded?
You want to be like your father
It's approval you're after
Well that's not how you find it

Do you
Do you really enjoy living a life that's so hateful?
Cause there's a hole where your soul should be
Your losing control of it and it's really distasteful

Fuck you
Fuck you very, very much
Cause we hate what you do
And we hate your whole crew
So please don't stay in touch

Fuck you
Fuck you very, very much
Cause your words don't translate and it's getting quite late
So please don't stay in touch

Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you,
Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you,
Fuck you

You say, you think we need to go to war
Well you're already in one,
Cause its people like you
That need to get slew
No one wants your opinion

Fuck you
Fuck you very, very much
Cause we hate what you do
And we hate your whole crew
So please don't stay in touch

Fuck you
Fuck you very, very much
Cause your words don't translate and it's getting quite late
So please don't stay in touch

Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you
Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you
 

Samasson

New member
Feb 26, 2013
26
0
0
Xanadu84 said:
Samasson said:
Xanadu84 said:
I think the extent of this anti-women mentality is...well, I hesitate to say blown out of proportion, but it is not the beast a lot of people say it is.
I think to some extent you may be right based on the fact that the Tropes vs. Women Kickstarter absolutely shattered its fundraising goal. However, it is important to examine such things anyway given that just because an anti-woman mentality is not overt does not mean that is does not exist. But you do raise a fair objection to the backlash towards the overt anti-women gamers.
And I did go into that in my post. It is a very important topic to discuss, especially because though the majority of us jump on the opportunity to bash the truly vile sexists in our ranks, all we are doing is burning straw men. There are problems with the way that girls are treated in games, and the subtle problems are much more problematic then the, "Get back in the kitchen" jokes. Gamers as a culture are going through this sort of identity crisis as more and more mainstream players filter in, and as genres and design philosophies grow and vary. As a result, a lot of the attempts to retain an identity become arbitrary and unnecessary, and a lot of people don't even realize that they are imposing these gates more harshly on women. It doesn't help that the old mantra of, "Sex sells" can make it difficult to distinguish between a girl gamer who happens to be attractive and a cynical marketing ploy by an industry that itself ignores the female demographic.
I think you are spot on with your post and it is very important to bring up how blurry these issues can get when talking about these sorts of issues. Especially when we start to cross the lines between the actual game content and the real people working as booth babes regardless of whether or not their involvement in gaming culture is authentic. I think it is going to be very interesting to see how these sorts of criticisms and discourses develop as the gaming community becomes more and more splintered. Only time will tell if the 'hardcore' gaming community will be able to relinquish the sort of Sartrean bad-faith that comes from 'retaining an identity' as you put it.
 

bartholen_v1legacy

A dyslexic man walks into a bra.
Jan 24, 2009
3,056
0
0
Yeah, THIS IS THE EXACT REASON I AM ASHAMED TO TELL PEOPLE THAT I PLAY VIDEOGAMES AND WANT TO GIVE THEM UP ALTOGETHER!! Sorry for the caps, but I just had to get that out of my system. This is the single most disgusting gaming-related news I've seen all year. ARGH, I feel like kicking that little fucker's teeth down his throat right now. I cannot for the life of me think how a sane person can adapt such a vile mentality. My guess is that the guy's crush didn't want to go to prom with him and then he thought "Hurr all wimmen urrr eivull hurr durr".

Fuck that fucking fucker.
 

sanquin

New member
Jun 8, 2011
1,837
0
0
TheKasp said:
->femnazi<- *sigh* What a stupid word.

Pray tell, how did she scam people? And if she indeed did scam people, where is the outrage from the ones that actually had a stake in this (as in: people who paid for the kickstarter)? Do you really want to imply that regular updates for the backers about her project (that obviously had enough information to keep her backers satisfied) are 'scam'?

And no. If we ignore the morons at 4chan (who, in my opinion, make up a big chunk of the gaming community) she got attacked because *gosh* she wanted to tackle a certain subject in video games. That's it. People got overly protective because they somehow assume that calling a certain aspect of a game sexist / bad makes them sexist / bad or that the person is calling them that. It is quite obvious a stupid conclusion but this is the simple reason as to why Anita got the hate she got.

Because at the end of the day: Her series is not going to change a thing, especially if her work continues to be on the same quality as it was until now. So why make all the fuzz?
It sounds like you haven't read a threat a while ago. Even her backers are restless. But they keep quiet for fear of being thrown out of the 'regular' updates and such. The 'regular' updates were mostly her doing interviews and going to meetings, with only a 'still working on it' about the actual project. One guy voiced concerns in an e-mail to her, and she bashed him for it. Another guy posted his concerns on a more public forum, and was banned from the updates list entirely for it.

And your last point is exactly what I mean. She has a web series that costs her barely anything. Heck, it probably costs her nothing but the camera she uses. Yet she suddenly needs money from kickstarter to do a documentary of some kind? There is no indication whatsoever that it will be of any higher quality than her youtube video's. Furthermore, did you see the photo of the games she bought? There were quite a few in there that had nothing to do with gender roles at all. Plus, she mysteriously suddenly had the money to buy an expensive new car after her kickstarter ended. That's why I call her a scammer.
 

Auron

New member
Mar 28, 2009
530
0
0
So he goes around twitch bombing streams of attractive girls who gather views by being cute instead of playing*, a bit puerile but so are the girls he's not entirely wrong in his assessment. Funnily enough his description of how to find a girl playing matches my girlfriend's wow habits to perfection other than the "too whiny to go into real raiding so they have to do old dungeons" and the fact she doesn't stream or anything. After watching the entire video it actually comes across as comedy/trolling he cannot have a high level character on every server to be tracking down random players on different realms even with x-faction funny that everyone seems to believe he's for real.

*I mean, you can't tell me you take stuff like this http://www.twitch.tv/tarababcock seriously, this is not about the games. Not all of them are like this one but others do exist.

DeadpanLunatic said:
Yosharian said:
Uh... no, there aren't. Have you even played this game?
Honestly, no, but I did proceed to present a workaround. But go right on ignoring whatever points you can't respond to.
He's right, there's no way to communicate with the enemy faction unless you're logged on the enemy faction itself which is probably what he's doing anyway,

did it ever occur to you that bearing the kind of mark our community finds worth harassing might have you ganked more regularly than mere happenstance? That this probably happens frequently enough for people to discern that something about them attracts this unwanted attention?
Whoever you are you're going to be ganked numerous times, as many as yours and the ganker's skill/boredom allows in fact, in a pvp server. The easy solution is going to a pve server, otherwise don't complain. Furthermore it's an ungodly amount of work to track someone and you need to have a high level character in the same server too.
 

Rainforce

New member
Apr 20, 2009
692
0
0
knight steel said:
heh, just listened to that this morning because I remembered it from some time ago and explicitly searched for it...

also yeah, that man is sickening to a very high degree of purity.
 

SonicWaffle

New member
Oct 14, 2009
3,017
0
0
DeadpanLunatic said:
One woman wants to explore whether games might be sexist and our community jumps to attention to prove that they damn sure are.
Interesting read, I liked it and for the most part agree with you. The only nitpick I've got is the part I've quoted above - the reaction to Tropes vs Women has done nothing to prove that games are sexist, it has just proved that some gamers are sexist.

Of course, that could be what you meant, but the syntax you've used is a tricksy little hobbit.

On the whole, good job. Have a high five.
 

SonicWaffle

New member
Oct 14, 2009
3,017
0
0
TheKasp said:
I came from a game where your death meant the loss of all the stuff you had with you, with possible mutilation of your corpse because the PK in question happened to collect left legs. I just assume that people know what they get into when they enter PvP servers and PvP areas.
You're a not a Discworld MUD player by any chance?

I've heard the same argument over there a million times, between the "I went PK to roleplay!" guys and the "I went PK to murderfuck your face!" guys. Always a fun debate, if by fun you mean circular and likely to devolve into people getting backstabbed.

Bara_no_Hime said:
Edit: Also - wait, I could make money by streaming my gaming online?
Depends. Are you hot and willing to show off your tits? If so, you can probably make more money doing other stuff online :p
 

SonicWaffle

New member
Oct 14, 2009
3,017
0
0
TheKasp said:
SonicWaffle said:
TheKasp said:
I came from a game where your death meant the loss of all the stuff you had with you, with possible mutilation of your corpse because the PK in question happened to collect left legs. I just assume that people know what they get into when they enter PvP servers and PvP areas.
You're a not a Discworld MUD player by any chance?

I've heard the same argument over there a million times, between the "I went PK to roleplay!" guys and the "I went PK to murderfuck your face!" guys. Always a fun debate, if by fun you mean circular and likely to devolve into people getting backstabbed.
Ultima Online. Always fun to camp in fron of a house invisible just to rob it empty when the owner didn't check for ivnsible asshats.

I did mostly PK to kill boredom. PvP was the single most interesting aspect and raiding was just means to get the gear (because it was less time intensive than grinding up to rank 10).
Unfortunately, in the MUD I was thinking of, it's being forever worn down to avoid upsetting people. It's still possible to break into houses, but no longer possible to steal anything. Taking anything from a player's corpse automatically sets off all wards (basically booby traps) even if the looter has the skill to avoid them. There was even a plan to alter theft so that when a player stole an item from another player, it didn't take the actual item, just created a clone of the item so that nobody had to lose their stuff.

When the hell did we get to the point that online multiplayer environments in which people voluntarily sign up for danger have been placed under the control of Barney the Dinosaur?
 

Smeatza

New member
Dec 12, 2011
932
0
0
DeadpanLunatic said:
Between the fake nerd girl craze
It was not a craze, most people hardly even knew of it, take a look on google trends, people only started to even find out what it was when the media began to cover (and inevitably, sensationalise) it.

DeadpanLunatic said:
and killer nuns in bondage gear
Is the sexualisation of characters inherently sexist? As far as I'm aware the debate still goes on.

DeadpanLunatic said:
the Anita Sarkeesians
Happened almost a year ago (so hardly a recent example), not as cut and dried as many would like to make out.

DeadpanLunatic said:
and the Jennifer Heplers,
Criticising a woman is not inherently sexist. Acting in a vindictive manner is not the same as being sexist.
In any case I believe it was Hepler that brought gender into the debate herself with the quote ""I just figure they're jealous that I get to have both a vagina AND a games industry job, and they can't get either."

DeadpanLunatic said:
Shrine's somewhat successful attempts to rally his fellow men to harass female gamers are sadly just one of many, many examples of the rampant sexism that haunts our medium, and far from the most important.
Bullshit, there's no more sexism in the video game industry/community than there is in the televison, film or literature industries/communities.
Let's stop all this sensationalist bullshit.

DeadpanLunatic said:
I am talking, of course, about Anita Sarkeesian. Yes, her. Again. I can hear you groan, but let's not forget the sheer amount of hate and abuse she faced for daring to suggest a critical examination of gender roles in videogames.
You mean for daring to crusade against video games under the guise of feminism.

DeadpanLunatic said:
Things have slowed down since the end of Sarkeesian's Kickstarter campaign, but gamers remain doubtful. People have gone on to question her credentials, wondering whether she's a real gamer or a real academic - next you'll tell me you?re not even convinced she's a real person.
How dare people exercise skepticism, next they'll be refuting the existence of god.

DeadpanLunatic said:
On the other end of the spectrum, she is being reproached for having yet to revolutionize our discourse of gender and gaming. I resent that. I resent that because, while masquerading as valid concerns, these arguments are intended to cut the discussion short, to discredit Sarkeesian without having to hear her out. How about we discuss her arguments based on content, based on merit?
Her previous arguments have had very little content and very little merit. Pointing out the low standards of her previous work is entirely relevant.

It's like when the MMR vaccine hoax came about, yeah we could have said "well Andrew Wakefield has a number of conflicts of interest and is putting thousands of children in danger by telling lies under the guise of scientific research. But he still might stumble across something that's actually correct so let's let him continue."
However we all realised it was best to prevent the blind willfully blinding the sighted.

The same applies here, in a much less important way.
 

Savagezion

New member
Mar 28, 2010
2,455
0
0
Damn, someone grabbed a hold of a sexist gamer YouTube crusader out there and used it as a springboard for backing Anita. It kills me that Anita supporters claim to be more open minded and yet can't seem to understand the logic behind her detractors. I am posting in this thread because of one phrase in the OP:

One woman wants to explore whether games might be sexist and our community jumps to attention to prove that they damn sure are.
No, that proves sexist people exist and I am beginning to think that trying to have a discussion with anyone who believes such a statement is pointless because they are only seeing what they want to see. Those threats mean jack squat towards her point other than there is a level of immaturity that exists amongst the huge demographic crowd that includes men, women, teens, elderly, etc. The fact that her project got so much attention on the internet only proves that trolls are bound to show up, not that she is right by default. That's illogical thinking and is actually just as based in prejudice as the statements made by the trolls.

While I am here typing crap, I have a related note. If you think she got the hate because people were afraid she could somehow take away our video games, you're not good at guessing motives at all. Back in 08-09 Game Informer did an article on some chick that played games and how guys acted as if that was a rarity and some stuff... it was a good article, I don't remember the details though. I do remember that it was the issue when Alpha Protocol was announced and was the cover story. Anyways, since then I noticed a movement happen in the games industry about women in gaming as it was just getting started real heavy leading us to today. Somewhere along the way, Feminist Frequency started popping up on message boards and I checked them out. I honestly thought in my mind "Ugh, this chick won't be around long. She is TERRIBLE at making a strong, or valid for that matter, argument." She slid back into obscurity of course for a couple years with somewhere around like 35,000 followers on the entire internet even with free advertising for a while. She was not met well early on as people judged her arguments on their actual merit.
I saw her pop up a few times later down the road, usually as a joke, got a chuckle and moved on. Understand, I am all for games broadening out and giving us some diversity but unlike (what I assume is many, due to this fiasco) others, I know what it will probably take to get us there. First, it is not a "movement", but rather social acceptance of the medium and we are close with the wide amount of people now partaking in the hobby. Elderly people now buy systems and play games. Maybe not like those who register here, but they do. Many people stepped into gaming this past generation with the Wii and phone apps working as a stepping stool. We're already on the way, we just need a bit more time - not a movement. I swear this new generation thinks everything needs a movement, I sometimes think they idolize hippies and civil rights activists.
Anita is merely something for them to attach to a movement though and unfortunately, she has decided games are sexist before even making the videos. The videos are not about whether games are sexist or not, it is about HOW THEY ARE sexist. EDIT: Actually, its not even about that, they are about faux pas committed by game X or Y. "Tropes vs. Women" and her previous Tropes vs. Women series was already a disaster due to her shoehorning in any glimpse of sexism she could find no matter how much it required skewing the source material. The idea of a video series actually looking into the culture of gaming from the perspective of women is a good idea... hell, a great idea. A video series looking at sexist tropes in games is a worthless idea. Having Anita Sarkeesian make the videos is a fucking terrible idea.

No one is afraid they will take away our games in regards to Anita, they are afraid she is gonna spread a lot of stupid into the world for no reason. Look at how many people are already pointing at her in agreement going "Yup" and she hasn't even made a statement yet. She got trolled and people said "She's right!" As for the WoW guy, yeah he is retarded that's why he makes a good springboard to use as "proof" Anita is right. Which is about as logical as crucifying Anita for something her fans did or said and how many times have you guys jumped down the throats of a detractor for doing that? It's an OK tactic so long as its your side doing it, I guess is the mentality being used in the article.
 

grey_space

Magnetic Mutant
Apr 16, 2012
455
0
0
Failing thread is failing due to Dune reference in title and then NO DUNE!

op, Not a bad article at all. An enjoyable well-balanced read I felt.

Yer man sounds like a terrible woman-fearing douche tho.

Well deserving of a good slap.