Removing One's Rocks

Flaery

Ghetto Trash
Dec 23, 2012
116
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Yes, Cory and Grey, you are the straightest shotas.

This is the first comic in quite a bit that I can really relate to.
 

Imre Csete

Original Character, Do Not Steal
Jul 8, 2010
785
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I expected Erin to play Hatoful Boyfriend after that statement, I'm disappoint.
 

cynicalsaint1

Salvation a la Mode
Apr 1, 2010
545
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Jumwa said:
The Gentleman said:
For the record, that book (50 Shades of Gray, and yes, I know that the title is something else, but let's be honest as to what it's referring to) is terrible. Like the original work the fanfic was based on (Twilight), it teaches extremely dangerous practices in a D/s relationship to the point that a sizable part of the BDSM community has read it to teach newcomers what not to do that they may have in mind.
I've seen this argument a lot, but I rarely see it applied to other things.

Not a lot of people kick a fuss over video games manshooters and how they give unrealistic depictions of what it's like to be in a war, or even use a gun.

Or that racing game's encourage people to drive haphazardly.

The book wasn't meant to be a how-to guide on BDSM. It's a work of fiction about some messed up people doing stupid things (with a ridiculous premise). It's meant to entertain, to titillate, not educate. And why should it? Not everything needs to be about that.

I've never read the thing myself, the eye-roll worthy anecdotes from my partners read-through were more than enough for me. It just seems this is a rather unfair standard because it has to do with sex.
Sexual fantasies are a whole fuck of a lot easier to act on than your dreams of going on a shooting spree.
You're comparing different situations here that are in no way equivalent.
 

Lord_Gremlin

New member
Apr 10, 2009
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*thinks for a while*
Everyone is entitled to picking their own poison. Don't judge and you won't be judged.
 

Piorn

New member
Dec 26, 2007
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lacktheknack said:
Piorn said:
At least I don't read my porn/VN/Doujin in public/living room or tell everybody about it.
Would you be horrified if I told you I saw a dude hiding his face in a bus, reading 50 Shades of Grey?
I wouldn't be horrified, I'd just say it's bold. Sure you could run around with porn in public, but personally, I think it's nobodies business what porn I read, so I keep it for myself.
And I respect it if he likes that sort of thing, but it makes it awkward to chat with that person about books. When someone asks me what I'm currently reading, I only mention the sfw stuff either.
 

Jumwa

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Jun 21, 2010
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cynicalsaint1 said:
Sexual fantasies are a whole fuck of a lot easier to act on than your dreams of going on a shooting spree.
You're comparing different situations here that are in no way equivalent.
So why do driving games get a pass?

Why do movies that display really bad depictions of working out go unnoticed?

You cherry picked one little part of what I said and ignored the whole point (and other example). And I never said anything about a "shooting spree". I spoke of gun use and warzone combat, neither of which is illegal in and of itself, and judging by gun ownership rates in countries like the US and Canada, it's not a very uncommon or difficult thing for people to own and use guns.
 

hentropy

New member
Feb 25, 2012
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At least otome games have pictures. I bet if it were called 灰色の50色気 and was a 30 hour visual novel with so many bishounen, it would be heralded as some sort of masturpiece.
 

VoltySquirrel

New member
Feb 5, 2009
462
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50 Shades of Grey is one of the funniest books I've ever read. I don't regret reading it at all, because reading E.L. James try and epicly fail to write something sexy is hysterical.
 

Weaver

Overcaffeinated
Apr 28, 2008
8,977
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lol this is petty true. That being said, I still like visual novels and I feel no shame at all.
 

Grahav

New member
Mar 13, 2009
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Jumwa said:
The Gentleman said:
For the record, that book (50 Shades of Gray, and yes, I know that the title is something else, but let's be honest as to what it's referring to) is terrible. Like the original work the fanfic was based on (Twilight), it teaches extremely dangerous practices in a D/s relationship to the point that a sizable part of the BDSM community has read it to teach newcomers what not to do that they may have in mind.
I've seen this argument a lot, but I rarely see it applied to other things.

Not a lot of people kick a fuss over video games manshooters and how they give unrealistic depictions of what it's like to be in a war, or even use a gun.

Or that racing game's encourage people to drive haphazardly.

The book wasn't meant to be a how-to guide on BDSM. It's a work of fiction about some messed up people doing stupid things (with a ridiculous premise). It's meant to entertain, to titillate, not educate. And why should it? Not everything needs to be about that.

I've never read the thing myself, the eye-roll worthy anecdotes from my partners read-through were more than enough for me. It just seems this is a rather unfair standard because it has to do with sex.
I am always glad when someone share my opinion and write it in a better way than I was thinking.

If anything, the siliness of the book makes it less dangerous. It would be like taking hentai seriously.

50 shaders won't expect billionares and hentai readers won't rape people everywhere. The books are explicit FANTASY.

Of course it is hard to measure the real effects of fiction in the human psyche (with so many contradictory studies, even this comic lampshaded it at one point). Everybody comments about the abusive relationship between the Beauty and the Beast. Does porn and stupid violence with its inherent siliness less dangerous? Having awareness when reading is enough or it attacks in an unconscious level?

Also there is the fact that some real people just escape to fantasy and don't get out.



And of course there are always people that are stupid and crazy enough to take anything at face value. But if we always consider them, we wouldn't even be able to tell a silly joke on the fear of someone believing it. So fuck them.
 

Loonyyy

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Jul 10, 2009
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Jumwa said:
I've seen this argument a lot, but I rarely see it applied to other things.

Not a lot of people kick a fuss over video games manshooters and how they give unrealistic depictions of what it's like to be in a war, or even use a gun.

Or that racing game's encourage people to drive haphazardly.

The book wasn't meant to be a how-to guide on BDSM. It's a work of fiction about some messed up people doing stupid things (with a ridiculous premise). It's meant to entertain, to titillate, not educate. And why should it? Not everything needs to be about that.

I've never read the thing myself, the eye-roll worthy anecdotes from my partners read-through were more than enough for me. It just seems this is a rather unfair standard because it has to do with sex.
Problem being the presentation. The book is marketed as a romance, the author claims it's a romance, and it's sold as one and taken as one, and that's been the pop culture reaction to it.

Instead, it's some vanilla sex attached, a shitload of boring paperwork (Really, there's a big bullshit faux-legal contract in there which is well worth a chuckle. Even the characters realise eventually that their special contract that takes up a quarter of the story is legally unenforceable) to an abusive relationship which presents people who enjoy BDSM as mentally ill, the mentally ill as simply being in need of the right lover to cure them, and stalking and domestic violence as romantic. These things could make for a good novel, if the author was aware that the whole thing is fucked. Twilight could be a great novel if the author realized her protagonist is incredibly stupid and played it as a Greek Tragedy. Similarly, Fifty Shades of Grey could be much better if the author was aware of it. Fucked up people and fucked up relationships can make great stories. If you're aware that's what you're presenting and actually try. Instead, they aren't, and the audience isn't, which spreads wrong-headed and dangerous ideas.

Additionally, the author has gone out of her way to marginalise legitimate criticism and victims of domestic abuse, supposedly in defense of those who enjoy BDSM, although her book presents these people as mentally ill deviants.

It's just vile, all around.

A romance author named Jennifer Armintrout did a chapter by chapter critique, which is well worth a read, it's amusing, and enlightening: (NSFW, obviously) http://jenniferarmintrout.blogspot.com.au/p/jen-reads-50-shades-of-grey.html?zx=b0185aad88b991c1
Especially the bit where the whole thing lines up rather disturbingly with the warning signs for abusive relationships and battered woman syndrome.
 

cynicalsaint1

Salvation a la Mode
Apr 1, 2010
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Jumwa said:
cynicalsaint1 said:
Sexual fantasies are a whole fuck of a lot easier to act on than your dreams of going on a shooting spree.
You're comparing different situations here that are in no way equivalent.
So why do driving games get a pass?

Why do movies that display really bad depictions of working out go unnoticed?

You cherry picked one little part of what I said and ignored the whole point (and other example). And I never said anything about a "shooting spree". I spoke of gun use and warzone combat, neither of which is illegal in and of itself, and judging by gun ownership rates in countries like the US and Canada, it's not a very uncommon or difficult thing for people to own and use guns.
Oh sorry, I thought you'd be able to put one and one together on your own, but apparently I have vastly over estimated you and will need to spell things out.

Your entire argument relies entirely on false equivalence. Sex, sexual fantasies, and sexual relationships having absolutely nothing to do with any kind of combat or driving ... well safe driving anyways. People try out new things int he bedroom all the damn time. Its normal to do. Furthermore most of us learn how to drive through some sort of drivers ed program, and soldiers have basic training, etc.

So where to couples go to learn about how to act out their BSDM fantasies without it getting abusive or even becoming rape? Probably nowhere because sex tends to be a fairly private thing for most people, and its not like sex ed covers the proper ways to approach various forms of kink. But if you pick up a popular book that you can read and get ideas from ... well ... hopefully you're getting the idea because I'm not drawing pictures for you.

You're trying to compare situations that don't even begin to be comparable here.
 

PoolCleaningRobot

New member
Mar 18, 2012
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This would be reason number 1 as to why I don't bother criticizing random stuff people like such as Twilight, cause I myself have been into things just as stupid

lacktheknack said:
Piorn said:
At least I don't read my porn/VN/Doujin in public/living room or tell everybody about it.
Would you be horrified if I told you I saw a dude hiding his face in a bus, reading 50 Shades of Grey?

OT: Heh. Heh heh. Erin's expression is priceless.
Pshhh. My friends read that shit in the middle of class
 

Jumwa

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Jun 21, 2010
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Loonyyy said:
Problem being the presentation. The book is marketed as a romance, the author claims it's a romance, and it's sold as one and taken as one, and that's been the pop culture reaction to it.
How does it being sold as romance change anything? Have you taken a look at the romance genre? It has always been full of ridiculous tales. Romance books are packed to the brim with "nonconsent" stories for centuries. i.e. A woman gets raped and ends up loving it.

How could things get anymore irresponsible than that?

However, it doesn't matter because it's fantasy. It isn't real. And romance novels aren't meant to be instructional how-to guides.

cynicalsaint1 said:
So where to couples go to learn about how to act out their BSDM fantasies without it getting abusive or even becoming rape?
You're an exceptionally rude person, so I'm just going to address a couple silly things you've said.

They could read an actual how-to BDSM guide. Or join a group with others who practice, every city in the western world is guaranteed to have at least one if you go looking for them.

It is not as if 50 Shades of Grey (an absurdly delusional novel where the portrayal of BDSM isn't the most ludicrous thing by far) is the only readily available source for this stuff. In the digital era, there exists countless forums and online communities one could go to for actual understanding.

Finally, by your rationale we could never compare anything. There is no absolute equivalence, you could compare two toys off the same assembly line and there will be real anomalies between them, but that kind of thinking is absurd, same as yours.

Fiction is full of unrealistic depictions of everything, from spaceships to eating. To hold one silly little romance book to high standards of safe realism despite everything else we let slide is hypocritical and harmful in itself.

And this is all ignoring the fact that in the book itself the characters improper pseudo-BDSM relationship ends up causing them to have all sorts of problems. It is no more the writers fault if some silly people imitate that than anything else.
 

soren7550

Overly Proud New Yorker
Dec 18, 2008
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Grey Carter said:
Removing One's Rocks

Actually, no. Not a better love story than Twilight.

Read Full Article
I don't know. I mean, the 'love' story in Twilight has a 100+ year old guy stalking a high schooler, thinks sparkles = monster, goes on super violent tirades, and physically abuses his 'love', all the while the 'heroine' does nothing except think that the abuse is her fault, and her one act of standing up for herself is to decide to not get an abortion that would save her life.

Gonna go ahead and say Erin's Japanese dating sim is a better love story than that tripe (as well as 50 Shades, seeing as it's Twilight fan fiction).
 

Eclectic Dreck

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Sep 3, 2008
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Jumwa said:
They could read an actual how-to BDSM guide. Or join a group with others who practice, every city in the western world is guaranteed to have at least one if you go looking for them.
The problem with the former is it is a fair step further than reading a fictional novel about the subject. Wanting to know how it's done is generally step taken after trying to figure out if it is something you'd even want to try. While various kink groups do exist, they are, by and large, on the fringes of society.

Someone looking to dip their toe into a bit of bedroom kink is likely not going to be comfortable with groups that regularly include the kink as a part of any gathering, many of which feature on-premises action. Worse still, if you happen to be a single male, you aren't welcome. So, actually, there are lots of reasons why someone wouldn't want to do what you suggest.

Jumwa said:
It is not as if 50 Shades of Grey (an absurdly delusional novel where the portrayal of BDSM isn't the most ludicrous thing by far) is the only readily available source for this stuff.
It is far and away the most famous work portraying the subject.

Jumwa said:
Finally, by your rationale we could never compare anything. There is no absolute equivalence, you could compare two toys off the same assembly line and there will be real anomalies between them, but that kind of thinking is absurd, same as yours.
False equivalence is a classic rhetorical fallacy. In your case, you attempt to draw equivalence between someone playing a game (for example) and learning violent actions and reading a book dealing, in large part, with BDSM and using it as a source of ideas.

The basis for a claim of false equivalence is fairly significant. Starting with the most obvious, you are attempting to draw a link between two different media consumed for two different purposes leading to two very different end states. Moreover, that end state is of profound importance - while BDSM may exist in a legal gray area (no pun intended) in many parts of the world, unabashed violence directed at your fellow man is frowned upon openly in every corner of the world.

Creating a valid equivalence for argument relies upon finding two examples of something with an obvious and provable link; you're just grasping at straws with your example.

Jumwa said:
Fiction is full of unrealistic depictions of everything, from spaceships to eating. To hold one silly little romance book to high standards of safe realism despite everything else we let slide is hypocritical and harmful in itself.
BDSM is an activity that any two people could consent to and then engage in using only the objects likely already on their person. By contrast, building and then piloting a spaceship is far outside the realm of what the average person is going to be able to accomplish. Having the most famous book on the subject ever written in the English language means that lots of people are going to read it specifically to learn about a subject loaded with taboos.

When the book is chock full of lots of stuff that is dangerous to all involved, that becomes a problem. The catch is that the group who reads the book for information is self-selected to all but ensure they won't be able to identify the parts it gets wrong.

Jumwa said:
And this is all ignoring the fact that in the book itself the characters improper pseudo-BDSM relationship ends up causing them to have all sorts of problems. It is no more the writers fault if some silly people imitate that than anything else.
No one blames the writer for anything other than bad writing. There does not appear to be any malice on her part or even intent that the book be used as a guide. But, again, when you reach the level of popularity that 50 Shades of Grey has, the author's intent becomes lost and largely irrelevant in the argument.