Removing One's Rocks

[Loonyyy]

Problem being the presentation. The book is marketed as a romance, the author claims it's a romance, and it's sold as one and taken as one, and that's been the pop culture reaction to it.

How does it being sold as romance change anything?

Because it's about how the story is presented, and is interpreted by a large number of people. I'm not complaining about depicting unrealistic scenarios or abusive relationships. I'm objecting to the depiction of abusive relationships as an ideal, and to the despicable portrayals of mental illness and BDSM. If the story was meant to be about an abusive relationship, and was marketed, and written as such, it wouldn't get this complaint. It's the context. MacBeth is a great work in which many horrible characters treat each other abominably, however, it's meant to be about that, and at no point does the play stop for the characters to soliliquise about how good abusive people and circumstances are. FSOG could be a great satire. But it's not how it's presented.

Have you taken a look at the romance genre?

Yes. Presumably since I answered this question I can ignore the rest of the rant, since clearly someone would only be this presumptuous, rude, arrogant and dismissive if my argument would fall apart if I answered "No"? No? Ok then. The irony of you making this statement in full admission of having little knowledge of the text in question is more than a little ironic. "Have you taken a look at FSOG, and domestic violence?" would be my response, were I feeling similarly rhetorical and poorly reasoned.

It has always been full of ridiculous tales. Romance books are packed to the brim with "nonconsent" stories for centuries. i.e. A woman gets raped and ends up loving it.

Duh. In fact, the very site I linked has discussions of that very topic. And I'm well aware of nonconsent, and dubious consent etc. The question of consent is a good one, since Grey in the story threatens to rape her, and then tries to manipulate her into agreeing to do things she doesn't want sexually. Which is abominable. Which is then presented as a romantic ideal.

Oh, you mean to compare the two? Sorry, I don't have to judge every book ever fucking written to criticise one. I'll judge them on their own merits if there's a requirement, but that's just an attempt to justify a wrong with other wrongs. Do I have to explain why that's fallacious? Because if I do, there's no point in discussing anything, it won't go anywhere.

How could things get anymore irresponsible than that?

1.) Presentation. There's a difference between depicting something and glamorising it. I'm claiming that FSOG glamorises abusive relationships.
2.) Some of that stuff is abhorrent. Doesn't make this any better.

Just for the example, since you managed to make the mistake twice: Since Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, Chairman Mao, and Justin Bieber happened, nothing I do can be judged, because by comparison, I'm insignificant, and anyone who tried to judge me would have to give substantive criticisms of everyone else that someone was willing to bring up. Obviously, this argument is fallacious.

However, it doesn't matter because it's fantasy.

It does if you think that media has any effect on society. And I've no problem with fantasies. It's the presentation of this fantasy. Please aim to discuss the things I have said, rather than those you'd wished I'd said.

It isn't real.

So THAT'S why it was in the fiction section! NOW IT MAKES SENSE.

And romance novels aren't meant to be instructional how-to guides.

Never claimed that they were. Again, you've missed the point. Which seems to be a trend. It's entirely possible that you don't think media has any influence on society, because you don't pay attention to it. Heck, it seems you didn't pay attention to my post.

 

[geizr]

I really love manga and anime, but what I love about it is mostly the drawing style and art aesthetics, particularly the older stuff that got me into it (for context, I'm talking about stuff from the the 70's and 80's because I'm old fart compared to a lot others on these forums). However, what I have come to hate about manga and anime is the grotesque over-saturation of the content into what I call high-school musicals. There's just too much focus on high-school students and high-school relationships. I don't mind that sort of thing on occasion, but anime and manga, at least much of what I see imported here to America, has become almost entirely nothing but high-school musicals. From the view of a lot of anime and manga, once you're past the age of 22, you may as well just lie down in a grave because you're life is dead anyway, nothing happens after that (true for some, not for others; depends almost entirely on how you choose your life going forward).

What I would like to see would be more ordinary stories, like just ordinary sic-fi and fantasy novels (or even ordinary drama and romance novels), turned into manga and anime. In my opinion, manga and anime are not genres; they are formats of artistic style and expressive idioms. The themes, settings, subject matter, and characters that can be portrayed in anime and manga can be damn near anything you want. It's not truly limited to all these high-school musicals with nothing but high-school students and high-school teachers. Unfortunately, over the years, anime and manga have become pigeon-holed into exactly that, the genre of cutesy high-school musicals, and I think it's a same, because, in my opinion, it's an underuse of the true expressive capacity of the style.

Occasionally, I can find a gem that expands beyond the high-school musical scenario, but it's been getting harder as the years go by.

 

[Screamarie]

For the record, that book (50 Shades of Gray, and yes, I know that the title is something else, but let's be honest as to what it's referring to) is terrible. Like the original work the fanfic was based on (Twilight), it teaches extremely dangerous practices in a D/s relationship to the point that a sizable part of the BDSM community has read it to teach newcomers what not to do that they may have in mind.

I've seen this argument a lot, but I rarely see it applied to other things.

Not a lot of people kick a fuss over video games manshooters and how they give unrealistic depictions of what it's like to be in a war, or even use a gun.

Or that racing game's encourage people to drive haphazardly.

The book wasn't meant to be a how-to guide on BDSM. It's a work of fiction about some messed up people doing stupid things (with a ridiculous premise). It's meant to entertain, to titillate, not educate. And why should it? Not everything needs to be about that.

I've never read the thing myself, the eye-roll worthy anecdotes from my partners read-through were more than enough for me. It just seems this is a rather unfair standard because it has to do with sex.

To be honest, I can see both sides. See on the side of "this is an unrealistic BDSM relationship" I think that a lot of BDSMers hate the thought that people could go into a supposed BDSM relationship based upon the book, because people DO take what they read and watch WAY too seriously and often mistake it for true, without realizing that the relationship they're entering is actually abuse (which from what I've heard that's essentially what the relationship in 50 Shades of Gray is, it's abuse). Not to mention BDSMers already kind of get a bad reputation for being "sinful", "abusive","weird" and a whole host of other words that are not pleasant, so it's very possible that people read a book like 50SoG and think they're right that the BDSM community is just full of people who obviously have psychological disorders and like to either be hurtful or being hurt. So it's understandable that sometimes those in the community would want to say "No no no! We're not like that! That book is wrong!"

On the other hand though, as poorly written as it is (and from what little snippets I've read it's horrible), people should be allowed to enjoy what they like without ridicule. Fiction is fun, we use it to engage in fantasies that we know are bad for us, that we couldn't do in real life, but it gives us that little adventure in our head to make us happy.
Not every charater you come across has to be a role model for you. If you're so dense that you can't figure out the difference between what is acceptable in reality and what is acceptable in fantasy then that's your problem and hopefully you can figure it out. It's the same thing as parents blaming Eminem for their child's violent behavior. Eminem never claimed to be your child's guardian, he never assumed care of said child, and it's not his responsibility what other people do, even based upon his music because he can't account for all the crazy in the world. If he or any other artist of any sort DID, they wouldn't be able to make art ever again.

 

[cynicalsaint1]

They could read an actual how-to BDSM guide. Or join a group with others who practice, every city in the western world is guaranteed to have at least one if you go looking for them.

It is not as if 50 Shades of Grey (an absurdly delusional novel where the portrayal of BDSM isn't the most ludicrous thing by far) is the only readily available source for this stuff. In the digital era, there exists countless forums and online communities one could go to for actual understanding.

Never said it was the only source. But your original post was about the BDSM community's reaction to it and using it as a "What not to do" guide. From everything both you and I have heard its pretty much exactly that, and being a rather popular book its not exactly hard to understand why people are actually into the BDSM don't like the way its portrayed.

Finally, by your rationale we could never compare anything. There is no absolute equivalence, you could compare two toys off the same assembly line and there will be real anomalies between them, but that kind of thinking is absurd, same as yours.

No, Of course you can compare things, that doesn't mean you can compare all things to all other things arbitrarily, and I'm sorry but there is absolutely no connection between driving, combat, and sex other than they are things that people can do. To suggest that people react to them in the same way whenever they're presented in fictional media is utterly ridiculous. I mean you weren't even comparing the same media to the same media you were comparing "video games manshooters" and racing games to a book about BDSM. Those ballparks aren't even in the same city.

 

[Rinshan Kaihou]

I thought about this while watching Oreimo Season 2 last night and going <3 <3 hnnng kirino and ayase. I realized how messed up it was not only was I cheering for him and his sister to get together, but that she and ayase are also middle school students :|

 

[klaynexas3]

For the record, that book (50 Shades of Gray, and yes, I know that the title is something else, but let's be honest as to what it's referring to) is terrible. Like the original work the fanfic was based on (Twilight), it teaches extremely dangerous practices in a D/s relationship to the point that a sizable part of the BDSM community has read it to teach newcomers what not to do that they may have in mind.

Exactly, porn needs to be straight forward and honest about the way that it would actually work in real life. Everyone knows that that private detective gets all the ladies because he's British and he talked to them for all of 3 minutes. And that that town is filled with nothing but women and he's the only guy in town...

Seriously though, 50 shades is porn, so why should we hold it to any standard higher than that? Don't look at it from an educational stand point, just think "well, does it get people hot and bothered?" By the sales, I'd say so. I'll just be looking down on those that read it in public. It can wait until they get home.

 

[Shinsei-J]

One, "Cory and Grey are the straightest shotas" is the creepiest thing I've read all day
and today I've read the unspeakable, so good job on that.
Two, I can't help but feel that the newest manservice anime "Free" should have been used somewhere in this strip.

Spoiler: I mean look at it!

Three best laugh I've had all day too, great work.

 

[Jumwa]

I'm objecting to the depiction of abusive relationships as an ideal, and to the despicable portrayals of mental illness and BDSM. If the story was meant to be about an abusive relationship, and was marketed, and written as such, it wouldn't get this complaint.

Spoiler alert, in case anyone cares, the first book ends with the couple breaking up because of how badly he treats her in their twisted version of a BDSM relationship. That alone negates almost everything you've said.

...since clearly someone would only be this presumptuous, rude, arrogant and dismissive..

I was none of those things. It was a sincere question, and I went on to explain my point. The romance genre, for centuries at the very least, has been full of absurd premises that make a bit of bad PR for BDSM look completely mild by comparison.

You are lobbing all sorts of ridiculous claims at me. Previously you brought up that because the book was romance, it changes the expectations of realism. I pointed out the heaps of fantastical absurdities in the genre that are quite normal to indicate solely that the book being marketed as part of the romance genre makes absolutely no claims to its realism. That was my sole point. Not that the book is therefore unable to be judged.

How about taking some of your own advice: Please aim to discuss the things I have said, rather than those you'd wished I'd said.

As for social responsibility, now that the author is quite famous and popular, I do hope she takes that into consideration now. However, when she wrote her distasteful little story she could have had no idea how immensely popular and influential it could get. And to expect every writer of fiction, from piddling fanfic creators to part-time wannabes, to exhibit an immense amount of social awareness in everything they create would be absurdly unrealistic and quashing to creativity.

And if your argument is that content creators should be socially aware and responsible in case their work takes on some massive pop culture significance and might potentially influence someone, then why only on this one issue? After all, you stress that it doesn't apply to any other.

If you could discuss without being so arrogantly rude, it would help convey your point. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/121603-Science-Proves-That-Trolls-Ruin-Everything

I mean you weren't even comparing the same media to the same media you were comparing "video games manshooters" and racing games to a book about BDSM. Those ballparks aren't even in the same city.

I purposely compared disparate genres because I didn't think listing off other authors/books was very productive in a community that revolves almost entirely around gaming and movies.

I've mentioned it before, but how about how rape is portrayed in romance? (i.e. Just a way of romancing a gal and giving her what she really wants but can't bring herself to ask for!) That disturbs me far more than simply misconstruing BDSM yet it's not been a big deal to people. And 50 Shades is guilty there too, not as much as many other popular romance novels however. Yet it's not something that gets mentioned a lot.

I could come up with tons of problems with the book as regards realism or potential issues (including the unrealistic idea of a twenty year old self-made billionaire orphan), however my entire point, as I stated from my first comment, was just that it seemed arbitrary to pick on misconstruing a healthy BDSM relationship as a big issue to pick at with 50 Shades. Especially since the book didn't seem to depict it as a healthy BDSM relationship, but rather two messed up people in a messed up relationship that has tons of problems and seems ill-fitted from beginning to end.

 

[GabeZhul]

I have never understood the appeal of "romance" novels/visual novels/lenghty films with porn in them. To me, its going through tedious and laughingly terrible plot with a halfboner at best. Then once the "steamy" scenes happen, even if they are well made I've just lost interest by then.

I guess im more into instant gratification when it comes to porn.

I can't speak for other mediums, but you generally read romantic visual novels with "porn" not because of the "porn" but because of the story itself is good and the sexual content is just sort of an icing on the cake at the end (not to mention it is a little unrealistic if you are dealing with a romance between young people who stay entirely celibate, so I could even argue for realism).

On the other hand there are quite a number of visual novels that are porn and focused on sexual content and fetishes, but what you are doing is equating that specific type with the entire medium. To put that in perspective, it's like as if you heard about a single porn movie and then declared that every movie ever made has terrible plot and is only about the sex. Kind of silly if you ask me.

In this case I would recommend not talking about things you don't know about. It might sound like a no-brainer but apparently a lot of people have trouble with the concept...

 

[Darth_Payn]

Erin sure is one to talk about "normal human relationships" (pfft!). She gets along better with the video game characters in her head than her coworkers and family!

 

[Geo Da Sponge]

I'm objecting to the depiction of abusive relationships as an ideal, and to the despicable portrayals of mental illness and BDSM. If the story was meant to be about an abusive relationship, and was marketed, and written as such, it wouldn't get this complaint.

Spoiler alert, in case anyone cares, the first book ends with the couple breaking up because of how badly he treats her in their twisted version of a BDSM relationship. That alone negates almost everything you've said.

And then... Spoiler alert, she goes right back at the beginning of the next book to him after practically starving herself for several days, and they're right back to square one. Worse still in fact, because both of them become such big depressed messes in those few days that they're terrified of ever parting again, no matter how bad things get for them. Even though they've known each other for less than a month at that point.

And then, spoiler alert! The relationship is still abusive, and not primarily because of the BDSM element. Although believe me, Mr. Grey is a pretty shit dominant in that regard too.

If you want a good summary of why people are angry about this book in particular, try here: http://jennytrout.wordpress.com/2013/02/03/lets-talk-about-50-shades-in-a-calm-and-rational-way/

The basic points are that it's frequently marketed as being what women really want and being touted as romantic, but neither the publishers nor the author were willing to actually say "No, hang on, it's just a fantasy and you really shouldn't be hoping for something like this in real life." But then the author went and actually said "Nothing freaks me out more than people who say this is about domestic abuse. Bringing up my book in this context trivializes the issues, doing women who actually go through it a huge disservice. It also demonizes loads of women who enjoy this lifestyle, and ignores the many, many women who tell me they've found the books sexually empowering." Which to me sounds like she's not willing to even discuss the implications in her books, and will use the fact that people liked it as a defence.

 

[sageoftruth]

That's my girlfriend right there. Yup.

She plays dating sims AND reads smut like 50 Shades of Grey XD

And you accept that without letting it get in the way of your relationship? You, sir, are a paragon among boyfriends... or is it only girlfriends who get upset about that? I don't really have much experience.

 

[A Weakgeek]

I have never understood the appeal of "romance" novels/visual novels/lenghty films with porn in them. To me, its going through tedious and laughingly terrible plot with a halfboner at best. Then once the "steamy" scenes happen, even if they are well made I've just lost interest by then.

I guess im more into instant gratification when it comes to porn.

I can't speak for other mediums, but you generally read romantic visual novels with "porn" not because of the "porn" but because of the story itself is good and the sexual content is just sort of an icing on the cake at the end (not to mention it is a little unrealistic if you are dealing with a romance between young people who stay entirely celibate, so I could even argue for realism).

On the other hand there are quite a number of visual novels that are porn and focused on sexual content and fetishes, but what you are doing is equating that specific type with the entire medium. To put that in perspective, it's like as if you heard about a single porn movie and then declared that every movie ever made has terrible plot and is only about the sex. Kind of silly if you ask me.

In this case I would recommend not talking about things you don't know about. It might sound like a no-brainer but apparently a lot of people have trouble with the concept...

I was quite specifically talking about the ones with porn in them. I wasnt equating anything with anything else.

If one enjoys watching a bunch of still images of anime characters with text scroll under is all fine and dandy. I'll stick to actual porn for getting off and actual novels/comics for stories myself though.

 

[Fappy]

That's my girlfriend right there. Yup.

She plays dating sims AND reads smut like 50 Shades of Grey XD

And you accept that without letting it get in the way of your relationship? You, sir, are a paragon among boyfriends... or is it only girlfriends who get upset about that? I don't really have much experience.

We are both highly critical of each other's pornographic tastes (for lack of a better description), but we accept each other and move on

 

[Solo-Wing]

Ha I can't believe Erin reads that crap. Now excuse me while I go back to Katawa Shoujo. [sub][sub]I love my sweet Hanako~[sub]It's not the same shut up.[/sub][/sub][/sub]

 

[47_Ronin]

Haha, this strip nailed it.

 

[cynicalsaint1]

I mean you weren't even comparing the same media to the same media you were comparing "video games manshooters" and racing games to a book about BDSM. Those ballparks aren't even in the same city.

I purposely compared disparate genres because I didn't think listing off other authors/books was very productive in a community that revolves almost entirely around gaming and movies.

I fail to see how this makes the comparison anymore valid.

however my entire point, as I stated from my first comment, was just that it seemed arbitrary to pick on misconstruing a healthy BDSM relationship as a big issue to pick at with 50 Shades. Especially since the book didn't seem to depict it as a healthy BDSM relationship, but rather two messed up people in a messed up relationship that has tons of problems and seems ill-fitted from beginning to end.

But its not at all arbitrary.
Its an extremely popular book focusing on a relatively common sexual fantasy in a rather problematic way.

 

[hickwarrior]

Ha I can't believe Erin reads that crap. Now excuse me while I go back to Katawa Shoujo. [sub][sub]I love my sweet Hanako~[sub]It's not the same shut up.[/sub][/sub][/sub]

I think I know how you feel there. [sub]Though I'd rather go with Lily myself. [sub] Don't look at me like that...[/sub][/sub]

Also, I think katawa shoujo is more of a romance novel than FSOG, but only based on what team four star has read out loud.

 

[Raso719]

When men do it they're pigs. When women do it it's just a book. Double standards are fun.

 

[The Wooster]

Yes, Cory and Grey, you are the straightest shotas.

This is the first comic in quite a bit that I can really relate to.

Is your avatar from Nana to Kaoru?