Report: Steam Allows Publishers To Crack Down On Cross-Region Gifting

[Albino Boo]

So will they fix their fucking prices then? Will $ no longer be = ??

The Euro price includes sales tax or VAT in the price which by EU law is at minimum of 15%. The difference between the two currencies has been around 18%-28% for the last 5 years. The difference is not going to Valve but to the respective national governments.

Except the difference averages well above 30%, in fact, at the time of writing ?1=$1.36 So you'll have to come up with a better justification for the $1=?1 practice than that. Especially if you consider that GOG has the same price for everyone the world over.

Of course changing from Euros to dollars is free and in case it has escaped your notice there is remote risk that the Euro wont exist in few months time. This risk has to be insured against which cost money. GoG is european based site and includes vat in upfront prices and when they sell to a non vat country they keep the additional money for themselves.

 

[lancar]

I've been helping a few of my german friends get uncensored versions of their games using this. They'll be very disappointed to learn that it will no longer work.

Can't they still just order it online?

Honestly, I have no idea. It stands to reason that if gifting and trading cross-region is disabled, then copies ordered from other regions may not work either.

I'm just speculating here, mind, but it sounds plausible to me.

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

1. Steam covering their asses to be able to sell in respective countries with strict censorship laws is just good business. No matter how much you have in capital funds, a lawsuit or an express denial/embargo/trade restriction costs money and potentially jobs. I don't see Steam being anything but baseline compliant here.

2. Most of the folk here seem to have issue with either pricing (which is a combination of regional tax laws and other factors that really aren't Steam's area) or censorship which is also regional. You have a problem with the way your country handles these issues, get involved, get political. Don't put Steam down for it, thats not their job to handle your countries political/economic issues. Thats YOUR job as a citizen. Or not if you live in a country that doesn't like you speaking up against policy.

 

[Kathinka]

won't stop keystores where games are activated via VPNs in cases of region lock anyway, so nice try but no. still a total dick move.

2. Most of the folk here seem to have issue with either pricing (which is a combination of regional tax laws and other factors that really aren't Steam's area) or censorship which is also regional. You have a problem with the way your country handles these issues, get involved, get political. Don't put Steam down for it, thats not their job to handle your countries political/economic issues. Thats YOUR job as a citizen. Or not if you live in a country that doesn't like you speaking up against policy.

that's the thing though. in germany for example steam is going above and beyond what the laws demand and restrict and hamper customers more than they would have to, for no appearent reason.

 

[lacktheknack]

So, people took advantage of a system, so the system was removed due to ineffectiveness.

We really ought to call that something, as between this and Youtube, it's getting pretty common.

 

[A-D.]

If it is that way, they'll need to address the castration of violent games in Germany, add an age check to enable us to buy the normal violence versions, else I think a lot of german people will complain or pirate those games, because well: bad service.

You are complaining because steam is obeying the national law of the democratically elected German government on the grounds of bad service. If the German public want to change the law they can express their democratic will at the ballot box. It is not the job of a foreign company to attempt to overthrow the express will of the German public.

I have to ask this, but seriously? There is no "law" for this. There is a rating system, but that isnt law by any means, thats like saying PEGI is a law. it really isnt, its a classification process of what content is suitable for which agegroup. Add to that the sheer fucking paranoia of basicly everyone over the age of 40, and politicians loving to drum up the "Violent Video Games" argument, seriously you think the US is bad? We've had that shit since 10 fucking years, we had that before some dude went on a killing spree.

But you know why it sucks? Because this classification board cant just classify games as, you know, suited for agegroups, no, they can also declare a game, ANY game unsuited for consumption for ANY agegroup. Example, Dead Island, a game made by a german developer, published by a german publisher, can not be legally sold within Germany. Reasoning for this? Zombies are "people", and you can kill "people" in those games because zombies are "people". Pixels, PIXELS ARE PEOPLE is their argument, and every fucking politician, even the most liberal, leftist **** will drag out the video-game argument ad nauseum as long as old farts are scared of the new medium, because fearmongering is fucking fun.

So please tell me again about "democratic" or "laws" when some ****, in the agerange of 50 and up, can tell me what i can and can not see. That is censorship pure and simple and it needs to stop. There is a huge difference between "only suited for adults" and "nope, not even adults" and while i would agree that Steam cant really do much but comply with whatever trading law applies there, the fact that i can legally, go to the UK or the US or anywhere outside of germany, buy a game there and bring it home with me, no questions asked pokes fucking giant holes in the argument. Hell i can just take a 6 hour trip, to austria, and get a german version of any game ever made there, why? Cause they arent as anal about "violence makes children into murderers"/rant

Why do you think your opinion is more important that of the German public? In a democracy things you disagree with happen, and you just have to live with it. The trade off is that when things other people dislike happen they just have to live with it too. INstead of scream shouting and swearing I suggest you understand that other viewpoints exist that have equal validity. Just because something is your opinion is does not mean you are right. In democracy all opinions have chance to be put the test in a public vote. If you don't like the result then tough.

You got the wrong idea here, "public vote"? There aint one. The USK, the german equivalent of PEGI essentially, or whatever the US had again (forgot the name just now) decides which media is appropriate for which agegroup. Basicly they decide whether you can watch Disney's Bambi at age 6 or if there is no agelimit. They decide whether some gore horror movie is only available at 18 and above. This includes games, they rate games..and they can outright index and as such ban a game from being available anywhere within germany, if they deem it so. Example, DOOM, the first and second, was banned within germany until about 2 years ago when Bethesda filed for it to be rechecked, game-bans dont automatically expire, the publisher or developer has to get them removed after like 10 years or more.

How is that a majority if some small group of people have the ability to decide whether a game is fit for the masses? How is that "fair" or "democratic"? It isnt.

 

[IKWerewolf]

OK, here goes Opinion 1.

The real problem is that although the internet is a free market; the problem is they are played physically in a space in a country; as such Valve has to operate with the laws in the physical markets, which means, with the exception of the EU free market, that each has their own rules.

The legal issues such as Australian Laws governing violence which limits the amount of violence. If the laws exist and the Australian government hold steam liable

The economic issues such as tax avoidance by buying from other cheaper countries.

The idea of South Americans and Eastern European users selling game keys illegally or using them for fraud is plausible. There is no system to sell the games back within the Steam system so when they buy game keys, it would be outside the Steam system and you would have no comeback on Steam and no way for steam to stop it.

Now Opinion 2

The comparison between this incident and the youTube incident. On a basic level youTube's and Steam actions are self defense; YouTube's content system could be in breach of Fair Use as it is collecting everyone in the same boat, reviewers and LPs are getting mixed up with those who post Copyrighted media and all are being treated the same. Steam is tightening up rules so that they do not fall fowl of and yes it will result in problems as mentioned here such as not being able to send games to friends across the seas.

The biggest difference is this, this is optional in Steam and youTube is forcing it. youTube content makers (90% of them) are innocent parties who are having money taken from them and are having to jump through abusive hoops to get that money back. Steam is providing the option for publishers to limit cross-region not forcing them... this means if they do it, they are messing themselves up and losing sales for themselves.

Opinion 3

Does it make it right... I'm not judging as we don't know what the decision for making either decision and the answer people believe is either whether they are cynics or optimists towards that company.

 

[Albino Boo]

You got the wrong idea here, "public vote"? There aint one. The USK, the german equivalent of PEGI essentially, or whatever the US had again (forgot the name just now) decides which media is appropriate for which agegroup. Basicly they decide whether you can watch Disney's Bambi at age 6 or if there is no agelimit. They decide whether some gore horror movie is only available at 18 and above. This includes games, they rate games..and they can outright index and as such ban a game from being available anywhere within germany, if they deem it so. Example, DOOM, the first and second, was banned within germany until about 2 years ago when Bethesda filed for it to be rechecked, game-bans dont automatically expire, the publisher or developer has to get them removed after like 10 years or more.

How is that a majority if some small group of people have the ability to decide whether a game is fit for the masses? How is that "fair" or "democratic"? It isnt.

From http://www.usk.de/en/

The categorisations used are based on the German Children and Young Persons Act.

So they are enforcing legislation passed by the democratically elected German goverment.

 

[A-D.]

You got the wrong idea here, "public vote"? There aint one. The USK, the german equivalent of PEGI essentially, or whatever the US had again (forgot the name just now) decides which media is appropriate for which agegroup. Basicly they decide whether you can watch Disney's Bambi at age 6 or if there is no agelimit. They decide whether some gore horror movie is only available at 18 and above. This includes games, they rate games..and they can outright index and as such ban a game from being available anywhere within germany, if they deem it so. Example, DOOM, the first and second, was banned within germany until about 2 years ago when Bethesda filed for it to be rechecked, game-bans dont automatically expire, the publisher or developer has to get them removed after like 10 years or more.

How is that a majority if some small group of people have the ability to decide whether a game is fit for the masses? How is that "fair" or "democratic"? It isnt.

From http://www.usk.de/en/

The categorisations used are based on the German Children and Young Persons Act.

So they are enforcing legislation passed by the democratically elected German goverment.

So, explain to me one thing for a second, how can the public vote, on any laws? All you can actually vote on is who gets into power, but you have no control over what they actually do, case in point, take a look at australia's current politics since the last 3 months. The population has no real say in this, so some law that was passed at some point was NOT decided by the voters, but rather by whoever was in power. And all you can do in response if you dont like some law, dont vote for the same party at the next election. Elections are every 4 years, there is no garantuee that the law you dont like will get repealed, in fact there is not even any control for the voter as to which guy or gal sits in what position. You dont vote on say who is going to be the finance minister, or the minister of education, you can only vote for a party, which gives them a certain amount of seats in the Bundestag, thats it.

I dont think you understand how politics work here, because you have failed to even get anywhere close to how exactly the public has any real say in anything other than general elections in which all they can vote for is their primary party choice and their secondary party choice. Thats it. This isnt the roman republic where specific people were voted on to represent your part of the known world. But even ignoring this for just a moment, a law designed to prevent games from getting into the hands of minors, i.e. no game rated for 16 year and up should be played by anyone under 16 years old is the equivalent of being able to tell a full grown, legal adult german citizen as to what kind of media he or she can have access to?

 

[Albino Boo]

So, explain to me one thing for a second, how can the public vote, on any laws? All you can actually vote on is who gets into power, but you have no control over what they actually do, case in point, take a look at australia's current politics since the last 3 months. The population has no real say in this, so some law that was passed at some point was NOT decided by the voters, but rather by whoever was in power. And all you can do in response if you dont like some law, dont vote for the same party at the next election. Elections are every 4 years, there is no garantuee that the law you dont like will get repealed, in fact there is not even any control for the voter as to which guy or gal sits in what position. You dont vote on say who is going to be the finance minister, or the minister of education, you can only vote for a party, which gives them a certain amount of seats in the Bundestag, thats it.

I dont think you understand how politics work here, because you have failed to even get anywhere close to how exactly the public has any real say in anything other than general elections in which all they can vote for is their primary party choice and their secondary party choice. Thats it. This isnt the roman republic where specific people were voted on to represent your part of the known world. But even ignoring this for just a moment, a law designed to prevent games from getting into the hands of minors, i.e. no game rated for 16 year and up should be played by anyone under 16 years old is the equivalent of being able to tell a full grown, legal adult german citizen as to what kind of media he or she can have access to?

There is the concept know as representative democracy. The public elect representatives to legislate on their behalf. If the CDU,SPD or the free democrats thought there was any votes in repealing the legislation they would have made it party policy. You are just going to have accept that your position is a minority one. If there was a huge number of people who thought the same way that you do politicians would have run after those votes like a rat up a drain pipe. A popular position that costs no money to change is politicians dream.

 

[Strazdas]

Regions.... Come on, this is 2013, Regions shouldnt even exists anymore to begin with, what is this crap your pulling now. Regions became obsolete with invetion of internet distribution, why do you keep the arcaic ways of movie acess control that benefit noone but the publishers greed?

So will they fix their fucking prices then? Will $ no longer be = ??

The Euro price includes sales tax or VAT in the price which by EU law is at minimum of 15%. The difference between the two currencies has been around 18%-28% for the last 5 years. The difference is not going to Valve but to the respective national governments.

Id like to point out that only Cyprus has the minimum 15% tax of VAT (in fact it had 8% before the law raised it to 15%), all other countries have it at 17-24%. It does fluctuate a bit, less so in the older countries, however the way it is treated here is that SELLERS loose thier cut in tax and not the buyers. It should be developers that loose that 15% instead of higher prices.

You are complaining because steam is obeying the national law of the democratically elected German government on the grounds of bad service. If the German public want to change the law they can express their democratic will at the ballot box. It is not the job of a foreign company to attempt to overthrow the express will of the German public.

Obeying bad laws IS bad service. National laws should not even come into play when dealing with internet trade, for internet does not belong to any nation.

I have to ask this, but seriously? There is no "law" for this. There is a rating system, but that isnt law by any means, thats like saying PEGI is a law. it really isnt, its a classification process of what content is suitable for which agegroup. Add to that the sheer fucking paranoia of basicly everyone over the age of 40, and politicians loving to drum up the "Violent Video Games" argument, seriously you think the US is bad? We've had that shit since 10 fucking years, we had that before some dude went on a killing spree.

Yourp rofile does not disclose your location but im guessing you are not from europe. So you may not be aware of this, but music, tv, movie and game ratings here are law. PEGI is law. It is illegal to sell 13+ rated game to 12 year old for example. Add to that that Germans have thier own ridiculous rating board that would outright ban anything that has a swastica on it and so on and you got A LOT of things becomming illegal in germany.
Its easier for americans, as their ratings are not laws, though good luck trying to convince retailer of that, but here in europe yes, it is "law".

 

[Strazdas]

Of course changing from Euros to dollars is free and in case it has escaped your notice there is remote risk that the Euro wont exist in few months time. This risk has to be insured against which cost money. GoG is european based site and includes vat in upfront prices and when they sell to a non vat country they keep the additional money for themselves.

The costs of changing the currency on a mass scale like steam is doing are very small. So they may be getting 1.34 dollars instead of 1.36 dollars for each Euro, that does not change much.
There is no possibility Euro will collapse in a few months. Euro is stable. Right now it is more stable than dollar, so if anythings collapsing dollars are going first. Paranoid fearmongering may cause Valve to insure the risk, however we should not be paying for other peoples lunacy.

1. Steam covering their asses to be able to sell in respective countries with strict censorship laws is just good business. No matter how much you have in capital funds, a lawsuit or an express denial/embargo/trade restriction costs money and potentially jobs. I don't see Steam being anything but baseline compliant here.

An express embargo on something like Steam is not realistic. It would be a political suicide.

There is the concept know as representative democracy. The public elect representatives to legislate on their behalf. If the CDU,SPD or the free democrats thought there was any votes in repealing the legislation they would have made it party policy. You are just going to have accept that your position is a minority one. If there was a huge number of people who thought the same way that you do politicians would have run after those votes like a rat up a drain pipe. A popular position that costs no money to change is politicians dream.

The problem with your argument is this: you think that there is a democratic election that elects the candidates that best represent public opinion. This statement is false.

 

[Albino Boo]

There is the concept know as representative democracy. The public elect representatives to legislate on their behalf. If the CDU,SPD or the free democrats thought there was any votes in repealing the legislation they would have made it party policy. You are just going to have accept that your position is a minority one. If there was a huge number of people who thought the same way that you do politicians would have run after those votes like a rat up a drain pipe. A popular position that costs no money to change is politicians dream.

The problem with your argument is this: you think that there is a democratic election that elects the candidates that best represent public opinion. This statement is false.[/quote]

Please explain to me why a majority opinion that cost no money to support is not being grasped with both hands. Perhaps you might have to accept that your position is a minority one and will in fact lose votes for the party that supports it as policy. There is nothing stopping anyone forming a party and standing on the issue, yet no one has.

 

[Strazdas]

Please explain to me why a majority opinion that cost no money to support is not being grasped with both hands. Perhaps you might have to accept that your position is a minority one and will in fact lose votes for the party that supports it as policy. There is nothing stopping anyone forming a party and standing on the issue, yet no one has.

First of all, we do not know if it is a majority opinion. Have we seen a referendum with this question with enough attendance to know that over 50% of your population agrees with this? If so, how long ago?
Representative demcoracy does not mean majority rule to begin with, neither theoretically nor practically. It means that both majority and minority gets represented.
Secondly, loosing votes does not represent majority opinion either. For example i have voted for a (local) politician based on what he has done in the past and what he promissed in his program. The vote came close and he won by 3 votes (this was very local so the total of votes for him were something like 300+). The first week in office he did the complete opposite of what he promised in his program. So hes never getting my vote again. However ive heard from plenty of people that said they will still vote for him because of his promises and "hes less evil than the others". Loosing votes is far more complex than representing majority opinion.
Ive seen people loose votes for simply caring about smaller issues when big ones exist becasue of the Fallacy of relative privation.
A third point id like to make is just because it would not cost them anything does not mean they got nothing to loose. This can come two ways: direct one is simply bought politicians. I dont think i need to explain that route. The second one would be indirect loss of industry. Lets say a law is passed that stops this in US. As a result EA and Blizzard takes their stuff and settles in Europe. That is a huge loss of tax income for a policy "That cost nothing". And its not like we havent seen politicians being hung (not literary) for a law that benefits people but scares away the companies.

Yes, there is nothing stopping anyone from forming a party, except strick regulation, high costs and massive opponent agression (to the point of printing lies about you) that you have to deal with. And yes, i could NOT form a party simply because of age requirement (have to be 35 at least to be able to) even if i were to take up the feat. Such limitation in part are the reason politics are often behind the times - the people there are required to be.

Oh, and another thing to note about current ruling situation is simply that everything in politics is aminority issue. Majority is apathetic either way. (with obviuos exceptions like slavery or making murder legal).

You oversimplify politics without accounting for the human factor and this leads you to only see the idealized version of democracy and not the one we live in.

 

[Albino Boo]

Please explain to me why a majority opinion that cost no money to support is not being grasped with both hands. Perhaps you might have to accept that your position is a minority one and will in fact lose votes for the party that supports it as policy. There is nothing stopping anyone forming a party and standing on the issue, yet no one has.

First of all, we do not know if it is a majority opinion. Have we seen a referendum with this question with enough attendance to know that over 50% of your population agrees with this? If so, how long ago?
Representative demcoracy does not mean majority rule to begin with, neither theoretically nor practically. It means that both majority and minority gets represented.
Secondly, loosing votes does not represent majority opinion either. For example i have voted for a (local) politician based on what he has done in the past and what he promissed in his program. The vote came close and he won by 3 votes (this was very local so the total of votes for him were something like 300+). The first week in office he did the complete opposite of what he promised in his program. So hes never getting my vote again. However ive heard from plenty of people that said they will still vote for him because of his promises and "hes less evil than the others". Loosing votes is far more complex than representing majority opinion.
Ive seen people loose votes for simply caring about smaller issues when big ones exist becasue of the Fallacy of relative privation.
A third point id like to make is just because it would not cost them anything does not mean they got nothing to loose. This can come two ways: direct one is simply bought politicians. I dont think i need to explain that route. The second one would be indirect loss of industry. Lets say a law is passed that stops this in US. As a result EA and Blizzard takes their stuff and settles in Europe. That is a huge loss of tax income for a policy "That cost nothing". And its not like we havent seen politicians being hung (not literary) for a law that benefits people but scares away the companies.

Yes, there is nothing stopping anyone from forming a party, except strick regulation, high costs and massive opponent agression (to the point of printing lies about you) that you have to deal with. And yes, i could NOT form a party simply because of age requirement (have to be 35 at least to be able to) even if i were to take up the feat. Such limitation in part are the reason politics are often behind the times - the people there are required to be.

Oh, and another thing to note about current ruling situation is simply that everything in politics is aminority issue. Majority is apathetic either way. (with obviuos exceptions like slavery or making murder legal).

You oversimplify politics without accounting for the human factor and this leads you to only see the idealized version of democracy and not the one we live in.

SO parties don't do focus groups and put out private polls then? All the verbiage you can come up with won't disguise the fact that that if your position was popular there would be more noise and it would show in the parties private research. In the most recent German election was the issue even raised? No it wasn't. You just going to have to face it, there is difference between an internet forum where only like minded people talk to each other and the what the general view of the public is. If it was majority view it would show and it hasn't.

 

[Strazdas]

SO parties don't do focus groups and put out private polls then? All the verbiage you can come up with won't disguise the fact that that if your position was popular there would be more noise and it would show in the parties private research. In the most recent German election was the issue even raised? No it wasn't. You just going to have to face it, there is difference between an internet forum where only like minded people talk to each other and the what the general view of the public is. If it was majority view it would show and it hasn't.

Focus groups and private polls are the majority? because it certainly didnt work for gaming industry.
There is noise, plenty of noise. This thread alone is filled with it.
There are plenty of issues raised in public politics about german bans on things, and plenty of court cases, for example recenly one man was allwoed to use swastica after court decided it was acceptable.
Also nice how you got no argument agasint what i said so you just dismiss it as "verbiage" and call me a liar. Seriuosly?

 

[Albino Boo]

SO parties don't do focus groups and put out private polls then? All the verbiage you can come up with won't disguise the fact that that if your position was popular there would be more noise and it would show in the parties private research. In the most recent German election was the issue even raised? No it wasn't. You just going to have to face it, there is difference between an internet forum where only like minded people talk to each other and the what the general view of the public is. If it was majority view it would show and it hasn't.

Focus groups and private polls are the majority? because it certainly didnt work for gaming industry.
There is noise, plenty of noise. This thread alone is filled with it.
There are plenty of issues raised in public politics about german bans on things, and plenty of court cases, for example recenly one man was allwoed to use swastica after court decided it was acceptable.
Also nice how you got no argument agasint what i said so you just dismiss it as "verbiage" and call me a liar. Seriuosly?

Ever heard of sampling? You still have not provided one single piece of evidence that you position is popular. If your position was popular it would show in the the samples which are selected to produce a reflection of society as whole rather than a bunch 20 year olds talking to each other on the internet. Politicians like doing things that are popular becuase it keeps them in their job and doublely so for things that cost no money to do.

 

[Strazdas]

SO parties don't do focus groups and put out private polls then? All the verbiage you can come up with won't disguise the fact that that if your position was popular there would be more noise and it would show in the parties private research. In the most recent German election was the issue even raised? No it wasn't. You just going to have to face it, there is difference between an internet forum where only like minded people talk to each other and the what the general view of the public is. If it was majority view it would show and it hasn't.

Focus groups and private polls are the majority? because it certainly didnt work for gaming industry.
There is noise, plenty of noise. This thread alone is filled with it.
There are plenty of issues raised in public politics about german bans on things, and plenty of court cases, for example recenly one man was allwoed to use swastica after court decided it was acceptable.
Also nice how you got no argument agasint what i said so you just dismiss it as "verbiage" and call me a liar. Seriuosly?

Ever heard of sampling? You still have not provided one single piece of evidence that you position is popular. If your position was popular it would show in the the samples which are selected to produce a reflection of society as whole rather than a bunch 20 year olds talking to each other on the internet. Politicians like doing things that are popular becuase it keeps them in their job and doublely so for things that cost no money to do.

Yes, sampling is very expensive and needs to be very large to be representative. And even then there is margin for error. Large margin.
What position should i prove that is popular? That people do not like restrictions on game acess? the amount of imported games that are uncensored prove that.
The position that people dont like regional segregation of prices? The amount of exter-regional trading proves that.
And are you implying that 20 year old has no right to have opinion? Last i heard voting age is 18, not above 20. My opinion is as valid as yours on the matter, even if i am a "20 year old on the internet".
Politicians like doing things that earns them the most money. Being popular is only a part of it.
Once again your are idealizing the politics ad ignore reality deviation.