Researchers Challenge "Attention Span" Study

The Grim Ace

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May 20, 2010
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It seems more and more like every anti-gaming study isn't even slightly rooted in fact just more weird anti-game bias masquerading as hard fact. I had more than enough teachers back in high school cite study after study that has now been proven to be absolute crap. Then again, all of these bullshit biased studies have lead me to no longer trust any study really.
 

Sightless Wisdom

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Jul 24, 2009
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Justice has been served, idiots have been insulted.

I've really had enough of these "studies" that always seem to show negative connections between videogames and children. In most cases the so called evidence of their claims is rooted in bias assumption. It's really pathetic.
 

Calatar

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May 13, 2009
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This is why you should never take a study reported in any media at face value. Media people love to report whatever looks like a good story. They don't have the background or the patience to sort through the nuances of a study and evaluate whether or not the results are statistically significant; they just look for a headline.

Bad science reporting is endemic from pretty much all media. If you are actually intrigued by what a study says, read it for yourself to determine how much sense it makes.

Low Key said:
I guess this rebuttal will have to do, but I find the idea of scientists shanking each other over their findings to be absolutely hilarious.
This is what science is supposed to be: peer-reviewed, statistically-supported, factual correlations. Peers are supposed to make sure that the data is of high quality. Science isn't about automatic consensus.

Ickorus said:
Hey researchers, why don't you go try and cure cancer instead of wasting your time on trivial things such as this.

(500 posts, go me.)
There's always at least one... Please never use this fallacy again. There's no reason why understanding the health effects of video games is a bad thing. There is no cure for cancer, only treatments. Cancer research is a completely different field than this kind of research. Now don't ever say that again, and tell all your "OMG this study is stupid, why don't you go cure cancer instead" buddies not to say that again either. It's ignorant and irritating.

DrEmo said:
Videgames kill people, videogames teach kids, videogames give you ADD, videogames cure ADD

Make up your mind, researchers.
Researchers don't have one mind. Multiple studies=multiple conclusions.

Belladonnah said:
So many crappy studies always coming up with opposed results, maybe it's time to agree that video games hardly have any effect on people at all, be it good or bad?
The study didn't come up with opposed results, it found that the data from the other study didn't support their hypothesis. It's not contradicting the hypothesis, it's just saying it's unsupported.
If anything, we should be concluding that video games DO have an effect on people, as this is the consensus of all the studies. We just don't know what the effects are.

In science though, factual conclusions are based on a multitude of consistent and well-done studies. Right now the field is too inconsistent and studies too mediocre for us to form any such conclusions.

But dismissing science altogether and forming your own conclusions because you're frustrated there isn't automatic consensus is just ignorant.
 

Low Key

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May 7, 2009
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Calatar said:
Low Key said:
I guess this rebuttal will have to do, but I find the idea of scientists shanking each other over their findings to be absolutely hilarious.
This is what science is supposed to be: peer-reviewed, statistically-supported, factual correlations. Peers are supposed to make sure that the data is of high quality. Science isn't about automatic consensus.
My obvious light-hearted comment appears to have gone right over your head. I guess I'll have to make it even more obvious next time.
 

felixader

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Feb 24, 2008
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Sparrow said:
Go get 'em Christopher Ferguson of Texas A&M and T. Atilla Ceranoglu of Harvard Medical School. Adminster some cold, hard JUSTICE.
Tststs, let me get it rigth for you:

Adminster some cold, hard SCIENCE. ^.^
 

Calatar

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The Grim Ace said:
It seems more and more like every anti-gaming study isn't even slightly rooted in fact just more weird anti-game bias masquerading as hard fact. I had more than enough teachers back in high school cite study after study that has now been proven to be absolute crap. Then again, all of these bullshit biased studies have lead me to no longer trust any study really.
How were those studies proven to be absolute crap, hmm? By OTHER studies? But you don't trust them either, WHAT TO BELIEVE?
Some studies are good, some studies are bad. You need to be able to distinguish the two if you're going to believe what they say. Sometimes it's readily apparent that a study is bad: if the sample size is less than 10, for instance. If the study is performed by a group with clear ulterior motives (studies which debunk global warming which were financed entirely by Oil corporations, for instance)
Sometimes you can tell that there was no proper control group. It may be apparent that the study was too short to form the kind of conclusions they did. And even statistics and figures can lie if you know the tricks of them.

Tricks like the offset graph. Say you have 3 data points you want to present on a graph: 35, 34, 32. Now if you look at this on the graph as full bars, these all look pretty much the same height. But you know that it's a downward trend, and you know there's got to be a good story about this downward trend, and you want it to look more dramatic. So you start the graph's bottom at 30. The graph has height 5,4,2. Now it looks like there was a 60% drop over time from 5 to 2. But really, the drop was only about 8%. But it paints a much better narrative for your story now, even if it's deceptive.

Of course, I never mentioned the units of this graph, another big issue. Be suspicious of unmarked axes; without units, a graph is meaningless.

But the reverse statistical trend can also be used. Say you're looking at cancer rates in mice. The control group has a 1.2% rate of some kind of cancer, and the test group has a 1.4% rate. But you don't want to report a paltry 0.2% increase in cancer rates for this, it sounds diminutive. So instead of absolute percentage differences, you report relative percentage differences. 1.4% is 17% bigger than 1.2%. So now instead of a 0.2% rise in overall cancer rates, you have:
X Chemical results in 17% greater risk of Cancer!
A much better headline, don't you think?

A healthy degree of skepticism is good practice when encountering studies. Some people decide to stop trusting them altogether. But if you can be bothered to learn how to determine the quality of a study, you can get a better idea of which ones are clearly bullshit. Because not all studies are; there are many valid and well-done studies as well. However, the best way to find these studies typically involves reading a science journal (never public media). Peer review is essentially forcing other scientists to do all that hard work and critical thinking so you don't have to. Not that you should ever stop thinking critically about what you read, but it's one of the most effective filters for BS you can have. Unfortunately, it will be much harder to read than the watered down version you'll find in popular media, but at least you won't be subject to anybody's confusion over the source material but your own.
 

Calatar

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May 13, 2009
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Low Key said:
Calatar said:
Low Key said:
I guess this rebuttal will have to do, but I find the idea of scientists shanking each other over their findings to be absolutely hilarious.
This is what science is supposed to be: peer-reviewed, statistically-supported, factual correlations. Peers are supposed to make sure that the data is of high quality. Science isn't about automatic consensus.
My obvious light-hearted comment appears to have gone right over your head. I guess I'll have to make it even more obvious next time.
My bad, I was looking for people with misconceptions, but it turns out I was one of them :p
The idea of scientists facing off in the lab wielding broken-off Erlenmeyer flasks and graduated cylinders does strike me as humorous.
 

The Grim Ace

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May 20, 2010
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Calatar said:
The Grim Ace said:
It seems more and more like every anti-gaming study isn't even slightly rooted in fact just more weird anti-game bias masquerading as hard fact. I had more than enough teachers back in high school cite study after study that has now been proven to be absolute crap. Then again, all of these bullshit biased studies have lead me to no longer trust any study really.
How were those studies proven to be absolute crap, hmm? By OTHER studies? But you don't trust them either, WHAT TO BELIEVE?
Some studies are good, some studies are bad. You need to be able to distinguish the two if you're going to believe what they say. Sometimes it's readily apparent that a study is bad: if the sample size is less than 10, for instance. If the study is performed by a group with clear ulterior motives (studies which debunk global warming which were financed entirely by Oil corporations, for instance)
Sometimes you can tell that there was no proper control group. It may be apparent that the study was too short to form the kind of conclusions they did. And even statistics and figures can lie if you know the tricks of them.

Tricks like the offset graph. Say you have 3 data points you want to present on a graph: 35, 34, 32. Now if you look at this on the graph as full bars, these all look pretty much the same height. But you know that it's a downward trend, and you know there's got to be a good story about this downward trend, and you want it to look more dramatic. So you start the graph's bottom at 30. The graph has height 5,4,2. Now it looks like there was a 60% drop over time from 5 to 2. But really, the drop was only about 8%. But it paints a much better narrative for your story now, even if it's deceptive.

Of course, I never mentioned the units of this graph, another big issue. Be suspicious of unmarked axes; without units, a graph is meaningless.

But the reverse statistical trend can also be used. Say you're looking at cancer rates in mice. The control group has a 1.2% rate of some kind of cancer, and the test group has a 1.4% rate. But you don't want to report a paltry 0.2% increase in cancer rates for this, it sounds diminutive. So instead of absolute percentage differences, you report relative percentage differences. 1.4% is 17% bigger than 1.2%. So now instead of a 0.2% rise in overall cancer rates, you have:
X Chemical results in 17% greater risk of Cancer!
A much better headline, don't you think?

A healthy degree of skepticism is good practice when encountering studies. Some people decide to stop trusting them altogether. But if you can be bothered to learn how to determine the quality of a study, you can get a better idea of which ones are clearly bullshit. Because not all studies are; there are many valid and well-done studies as well. However, the best way to find these studies typically involves reading a science journal (never public media). Peer review is essentially forcing other scientists to do all that hard work and critical thinking so you don't have to. Not that you should ever stop thinking critically about what you read, but it's one of the most effective filters for BS you can have. Unfortunately, it will be much harder to read than the watered down version you'll find in popular media, but at least you won't be subject to anybody's confusion over the source material but your own.
You are far more eloquent than I, to say the least. You are also highlighting a huge problem our society has, too many studies on everything. Everything has to be studied and reported on and shown to definitively prove this or that when all it's all just a giant advertisement for - you guessed it - crap! Nearly every study now is funded by any group that wants to dupe the average person to be in favor of their cause or buy their product or etc. It's disgusting that science of any kind has been reduced to marketing and that people give any credence to any study, no matter how reputable the source may be shows how much we march in lock step to any form of authority that seems even slightly credible. Then again, I'm just an extreme skeptic who's ranting a bit again. I'd just like to say I never believed the negative studies in the first place since I've seen attention span go up in kids who had been deprived of videogames for most of their lives, these kids being my cousins. They don't inspire violence any more than any other media since, no matter how interactive it is, there is a disconnect from what is real and from what is virtual that comes natural to most people and that no (present) game can erase. All this anti-gaming sentiment is a bunch of people who hate what they don't understand, same "hell in a handbasket" crap as always.
 

(LK)

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Mar 4, 2010
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Unfortunately, studies like this aren't funded and performed to stand up to peer scrutiny.

They're released, the major media repeat them without criticism, and the mission is accomplished. The public is now swayed by the conclusions.

Most studies that do this do not even use correct high school level statistics in their methodology. The point isn't to be correct. The point is to get something official-sounding on the evening news. Any propagandist worth a dime will tell you that being later proven wrong is irrelevant, especially if the counter-evidence doesn't enjoy the same media attention as is often the case.

Once you seed the idea in people's heads by publication and media repetition the work is done. They believe it's true, sometimes even when presented with proof that it is not.

The scientific peer review process is not adequately equipped to prevent the publication of science-cum-propaganda churned out by researchers whose real job is just to manufacture data (often willfully falsified data) to support preformed conclusions for their sponsors.
 

Miumaru

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May 5, 2010
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No one even says that school is boring. Maybe kids will pay attention in school and such if school was doen better.
 

lizards

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Jan 20, 2009
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seems to me video gaming has found an allie in harvard medical schools and the like
 

Lim3

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Feb 15, 2010
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They got served.

Score one for the good guys.

What's the bet that the original study was funded by a religious organization with the intention to create a negative study for games based on the supposed orders from an invisible and omnipotent being?
 

Doug

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Apr 23, 2008
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DrEmo said:
Videgames kill people, videogames teach kids, videogames give you ADD, videogames cure ADD

Make up your mind, researchers.
"Researchers" is a large group, with many gangs with differing opinions. We'll find out who's 'right' when the dust settles and only one group is left standing. So, give these researchers a shiv and hope they can out shiv the other side. Innit.
 

Ickorus

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Mar 9, 2009
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There's always some people who take comments way too seriously, 'cure for cancer' was a generalization for 'something less useless'. -.-

I mean instead of doing research on why video games are bad and cause ADD why not research the causes of ADD and if video games come up on the list then whatever because you're doing research on that disorder and have taken more factors into account than your own burning hatred of gaming.
 

300lb. Samoan

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I'm not so sure I'd call those 'fightin words' as much as 'standard protocol that keeps the science community occupied on a regular basis'. It would, however, be hysterically entertaining to watch these nerds duke it out all over a case of shitty data.

And I know I originally applauded the initial study for coming out and presenting its case without trying overtly to align itself with the conservative anti-gaming movement. And as well I appreciate Ferguson and Ceranoglu for doing their part to verify and validate the findings - which they in turn found lacking, which is good news I suppose. The rest of you, however, going on about our would-be avenging scientist heroes, y'all sound like a bunch of tools. Do you expect anyone to take us seriously if we can't objectively acknowledge any study that criticizes our culture?