Researchers Remotely Control Cockroaches With Electronic Backpack

[chadachada123]

Dear god the cockroach-lovers(?) are in full force today.

A cockroach does not have anything near the level of consciousness that even the most primitive vertebrate has, and cannot feel pain (or hunger). Even its 'fear response' is not going to be linked to anything other than raw instinct and certainly not tied to any thought processes, making a comparison to, say, a dog or rat completely unwarranted.

Can we stop torturing bugs like children and work on curing AIDS or something?

Did you even read the article? Not only will this have major applications for disaster relief, but it's advancing immensely our understanding of neurology and how it meshes with biology, which, long-term, is pretty damn useful for humanity. This data, when combined with various other cyborg-based technology like the dead moth and dead rat whose brains were used to control machinery, will be able to be taken by other researchers and probably be used to find real-world applications or even used to find the cause/cure of some neurological disorder.

Besides, these are electrical engineers. Why in the hell would they be wasting resources trying to find cures for viral diseases?

 

[chadachada123]

Dear god the cockroach-lovers(?) are in full force today.

A cockroach does not have anything near the level of consciousness that even the most primitive vertebrate has, and cannot feel pain (or hunger). Even its 'fear response' is not going to be linked to anything other than raw instinct and certainly not tied to any thought processes, making a comparison to, say, a dog or rat completely unwarranted.

Can we stop torturing bugs like children and work on curing AIDS or something?

Did you even read the article? Not only will this have major applications for disaster relief, but it's advancing immensely our understanding of neurology and how it meshes with biology, which, long-term, is pretty damn useful for humanity. This data, when combined with various other cyborg-based technology like the dead moth and dead rat whose brains were used to control machinery, will be able to be taken by other researchers and probably be used to find real-world applications or even used to find the cause/cure of some neurological disorder.

Besides, these are electrical engineers. Why in the hell would they be wasting resources trying to find cures for viral diseases?

Or, how about we don't torture animals and use them like tools? Okay, cool.

It's not torture, because it's a cockroach, as I explained. If this was a dog, then you would have a point.

"Okay, cool."

 

[rdaleric]

Oh great, looks like some scientists have read we3 and totally missed the point of that comic. Grant Morrison will be annoyed

 

[chadachada123]

It's not torture, because it's a cockroach, as I explained. If this was a dog, then you would have a point.

Oh, I forgot how torturing things is cool if you don't care for the victim. Awesome morality.

It's not about 'caring,' it's about the fact that cockroaches don't think or feel in any sense that would warrant using the word torture.

To reiterate: mammals can feel pain. Most fish can feel pain. Reptiles (last I checked) can feel pain. Birds can feel pain. Lobsters cannot feel pain. Cockroaches cannot feel pain. This reason alone already makes any physical damage to a cockroach not even remotely comparable to doing the same to a healthy vertebrate, without even including the differences in thought processes.

Edited to remove snark.

 

[chadachada123]

It's not torture, because it's a cockroach, as I explained. If this was a dog, then you would have a point.

Oh, I forgot how torturing things is cool if you don't care for the victim. Awesome morality.

It's not about 'caring,' it's about the fact that cockroaches don't think or feel in any sense that would warrant using the word torture.

To reiterate: mammals can feel pain. Most fish can feel pain. Reptiles (last I checked) can feel pain. Birds can feel pain. Lobsters cannot feel pain. Cockroaches cannot feel pain. This reason alone already makes any physical damage to a cockroach not even remotely comparable to doing the same to a healthy vertebrate, without even including the differences in thought processes.

Edited to remove snark.

Oh, sorry, I was waiting for you to prove any of those claims. I'll continue not enjoying the cruelty and abuse until you get around to showing some.

Which claims, exactly, do you want proof for?

After searching for a bit, it appears that I had originally only read articles arguing that lobsters do not feel pain, and thought this to be the case. Apparently, according to Wikipedia at least, the question is "unresolved." I can admit that the data for lobsters is inconclusive.

Regarding MOST invertebrates, though:

http://www.parl.gc.ca/Content/SEN/Committee/372/lega/witn/shelly-e.htm

According to this official Canadian report, most invertebrates most likely do not feel pain, with the inclusion of pain receptors meaning nothing since they don't have the brain power necessary to *feel* pain, even if they react to stimuli in a negative manner.

The main reason that I assert that most invertebrates can't feel pain is that they lack the neocortex that mammals have to feel pain, and we currently do not have any models for pain reception that don't include them, to my knowledge.

Could cockroaches feel pain? Yes, if a method for feeling pain without a neocortex exists. Is such a method understood? Not as far as I know, no.

 

[Sovereignty]

Why are so many people sorry for the roach? Roaches don't have emotions... Maybe i'm just biased cause I have a huge phobia of roaches and would love it if they all died and went away forever.

Seriously though, we can't pick a more pleasant bug to do this? Nice beetle perhaps? If i'm trapped under the rubble of a torn down building and they send a search party of robotic roaches after me i'm squishing all the fuckers so guess i'll never be found.

I'm with this guy. Roaches gross me the hell out. Beyond that though... Bugs are sort of the only creatures I personally feel no sense of pity for. I mean, they have thousands of offspring, don't seem to be unique or independent from the others of their kind, and are generally swarm creatures.

Harming cats/dogs/birds/whales/reptiles/foul/etc sure... Sympathy, but... BUGS?

 

[thepyrethatburns]

So they've learned how to mimic Ampulex Compressa. That's kinda interesting but I'm not sure it's as practical as they're making it out to be.

I think the only reason that people (including myself) feel uneasy about it is because of the notion that this could one day be used on us. It's not like I would have a problem stepping on a roach or calling an exterminator to eliminate them if they set up in my house. Thus,I imagine that my unease is a wholly irrational response.

Either that or because this is kind of "in your face" where stepping on them is something we don't give a thought to, we're giving it more thought than we normally would.

 

[chadachada123]

Which claims, exactly, do you want proof for?

After searching for a bit, it appears that I had originally only read articles arguing that lobsters do not feel pain, and thought this to be the case. Apparently, according to Wikipedia at least, the question is "unresolved." I can admit that the data for lobsters is inconclusive.

Regarding MOST invertebrates, though:

http://www.parl.gc.ca/Content/SEN/Committee/372/lega/witn/shelly-e.htm

According to this official Canadian report, most invertebrates most likely do not feel pain, with the inclusion of pain receptors meaning nothing since they don't have the brain power necessary to *feel* pain, even if they react to stimuli in a negative manner.

The main reason that I assert that most invertebrates can't feel pain is that they lack the neocortex that mammals have to feel pain, and we currently do not have any models for pain reception that don't include them, to my knowledge.

Could cockroaches feel pain? Yes, if a method for feeling pain without a neocortex exists. Is such a method understood? Not as far as I know, no.

So, as I said, I'll carry on not enjoying the torture of animals because "well, they might not feel like us" doesn't cut it.

And I'll carry on supporting saving human lives as long as it isn't likely to cause pain to animals.

Quit bullshitting, too, it's not "well they might not feel like us," it's "we have no evidence that they feel like us." They are not equivalent.

 

[chadachada123]

And I'll carry on supporting saving human lives as long as it isn't likely to cause pain to animals.

Quit bullshitting, too, it's not "well they might not feel like us," it's "we have no evidence that they feel like us." They are not equivalent, as anyone that actually understands the scientific method would know.

Yeah, no. Torture isn't my thing. I'll carry on not using animals like tools to be bent to our will. You... do whatever it is you do.

Saving human life. That is both what I support, what my current job entails (lifeguard), and what my future career will entail (obstetrician/gynecologist). That...is what I do.

 

[the_green_dragon]

Hmmm. I don't want to take away from this experiment's findings, but perhaps if the roaches could also be monitored somehow for their general health... I know this is going to sound pathetic, but the thought of running them to death so we can know stuff kinda makes me sad.

Lol, this post actually made me laugh out loud.

I kill cockroaches when I get the pest control guy out to spray my house, I also step on them every time I come across one.

Making them work for us is a step up.

P.S they are not animals, they are under animals

 

[chadachada123]

Saving human life. That is both what I support, what my current job entails (lifeguard), and what my future career will entail (obstetrician/gynecologist). That...is what I do.

Well you care about one form of life. It's a start!

...Alright, you win this round for making me smirk at that comeback.

Lol, this post actually made me laugh out loud.

I kill cockroaches when I get the pest control guy out to spray my house, I also step on them every time I come across one.

Making them work for us is a step up.

P.S they are not animals, they are under animals

I remember once getting in a really short argument with someone about whether mosquitoes were animals or not, totally forgetting that animals as a technical classification include both invertebrates (insects, octopi, arachnids, etc) and vertebrates (mammals, etc).

But as far as colloquialisms go, yeah, cockroaches are beneath animals to me, and comparable to mosquitoes in pure loathing.

 

[ShindoL Shill]

Oh my... What other pests can we do this to? Remote controlled killer bees?

War... war never changes.
Except now we use bees.

 

[MidnightSt]

Can we stop torturing bugs like children and work on curing AIDS or something?

interestingly/funnily enough, this technology works on a principle directly opposite to torturing - afaik, it first sends an impulse that creates literally a "need" or "longing" to go somewhere (basically "i feel i should turn left/right"), and if the bug does that, it then stimulates its pleasure centers, so the bug feels a wave of good and happy feelings after obeying.

 

[Pinkamena]

Damn, I knew they were doing tests and shit on remote controlled insects/animals, but I didn't think that they'd actually managed to make a working version for roaches. This is kinda cool, really.

Can we stop torturing bugs like children and work on curing AIDS or something?

Shockingly enough, Electrical Engineers aren't that great at the whole 'Curing of diseases' thing. Even more shocking though, is that despite the Electrical Engineers 'torturing bugs', the Medical Researchers, Pharmacologists and Virologists working on AIDS cures are completely unaffected.

The beautiful thing about having a fuck-ton of scientists working on many projects at once is that one group can 'like children' while the other groups do... whatever the fuck it is they want to do.

Thank you for missing the point and taking my comment literally. It was funny.

But seriously, I'm sure this is indeed the best way for them to spend time and money. Torturing insects is hella awesome.

You seem to believe that cockroaches are able to feel fear the way we do. There's your problem.

 

[OniaPL]

Man, every thread that has Boudica in it always turns into such a riot.

OT:
I'm kind of torn between this. I know and understand that the cockroaches don't really feel or perceive the world in the way we do and therefore it is not torture, or horrifying captivity for them, it still bothers me on some strange level. I hate cockroaches as much as the next person, but the fact that living beings are controlled with electricity and forced to do our bidding still makes me slightly uneasy.

Still, this sounds extremely interesting and will probably have a lot of different useful applications.

 

[Adeptus Aspartem]

I think it's funny to see all this : Omg it's so wrong.

On the other hand anyone who said the sentence has squashed dozens of bugs themself.

 

[MidnightSt]

Can we stop torturing bugs like children and work on curing AIDS or something?

interestingly/funnily enough, this technology works on a principle directly opposite to torturing - afaik, it first sends an impulse that creates literally a "need" or "longing" to go somewhere (basically "i feel i should turn left/right"), and if the bug does that, it then stimulates its pleasure centers, so the bug feels a wave of good and happy feelings after obeying.

-_-

Yeah, not so much. Not so much at all.

The wires attached to the cerci, the sensory organs on the roach's abdomen, are used to scare the roaches into thinking a predator is coming from behind, causing the bug to move forward. Meanwhile, the antennae wires are "electronic reins" that cause them to think they've come in contact with a physical barrier, steering them in a different direction.

Unless you consider fear a synonym for happy and predator and barrier synonyms for longing.

oh, okay. Half a year ago I've watched presentation from TED about similar technology that used the stimuli I wrote about. I guess there's many ways to achieve the same thing. And yes, I should've read the OP before assuming it was the same as the one I knew about.

(captcha: way to go donny!) :-D

 

[OniaPL]

I think it's funny to see all this : Omg it's so wrong.

On the other hand anyone who said the sentence has squashed dozens of bugs themself.

I understand that very well, myself; If I see a cockroach, no doubt I will instantly crush it. I suppose for me it boils down to the ethical question of whether it is right or wrong to control a biological being through such methods.

I do agree that it is foolish to say that "This is wrong" or not, but there are still clear ethical dilemmas here if we look past the cockroaches. More than the cockroaches themselves, it is about controlling a biological being through such means.

 

[felbot]

i think they already did this on rats actually, though then they made them feel really good for doing what theyre told.

 

[the December King]

Hmmm. I don't want to take away from this experiment's findings, but perhaps if the roaches could also be monitored somehow for their general health... I know this is going to sound pathetic, but the thought of running them to death so we can know stuff kinda makes me sad.

Lol, this post actually made me laugh out loud.

I kill cockroaches when I get the pest control guy out to spray my house, I also step on them every time I come across one.

Making them work for us is a step up.

P.S they are not animals, they are under animals

Well, if you have an infestation, I can see how your attitude might be different. But 'working for us' isn't quite the same as 'enslaved and jolted'. Again, I'm aware that we are talking about bugs, but it still rattles me a bit.

P.S they are animals. Bugs, true, but still animals.