Retaining honorifics in English adaptations of manga & anime: yay or nay?

[Dr. Cakey]

I'd echo the general sentiment in that I prefer it in manga or subtitled anime but not in a dub. But things ought to be taken on a case-by-case basis. For example, Baccano! is about Americans in New York speaking English, so it would be appropriate to exclude honorifics in both the dub and in subtitles. On the flip side, Durarara!! (which, hey, is by the same author) could theoretically benefit from honorifics even in the dub.

Attempting to add honorifics or other Japanese flavor into a dub does, however, put the burden of proper pronunciation on the voice actors. Which really means the burden is on the audio director to coach them, and as far as I can tell the only thing rarer than a good voice actor is a good audio director.

 

[MeChaNiZ3D]

I'm going to take the coward's thinking man's way out and say it depends on the exact material. Generally I think honorifics and other little turns of phrase Japanese characters use are just indicative of overall tone and shouldn't be translated directly. See also "Believe it!". I don't like "san", "sama", "chan", "kun" or any of those should be translated either. But sometimes it works to just communicate with the overall approach, i.e. the character's dialogue is respectful/reverent rather than saying "sama", and sometimes it's better to just keep the honorifics. Although it often sounds a bit silly in an anime that is otherwise in English, unless the character is distinctly Japanese as opposed to the rest of the cast.

 

[EstrogenicMuscle]

I am neutral to the entire thing.

Some people are hostile to the idea because it is putting Japanese in English sentences. On the other hand, mein gott, do we use foreign languages in English sentences on the internet anyway. It's pretty me gusta desu ne, don't you think?

Really, in manga it is pretty acceptable. It's kind of hard to localize that kind of unusual formality that doesn't exist in the English language. Not only is just throwing in the suffixes lazy, but it works. Why not?

On the other hand, I don't begrudge people for attempting to localize things further, especially if they know what they're doing. It isn't like manga has to have that. And with most localizations you still get the basic gist of what they're saying, formalities included.

Some people think leaving it in is an abomination and too Japanese. Some people are addicted to hearing references to Japanese culture all the time. Again, I am neutral party, and I don't see what is so bad about either one.

 

[Bocaj2000]

Is the setting in Japan? If so, then it is preferred, like in Parasyte. If not, then it is just there to please weeaboos and breaks my immersion.

 

[Warachia]

Is the setting in Japan? If so, then it is preferred, like in Parasyte. If not, then it is just there to please weeaboos and breaks my immersion.

I agree, but I also think they need to include what the honorifics mean, Parasyte did a great job in the books because they explained not only the honorifics, but also the cultural differences.

 

[neonsword13-ops]

I don't mind it. And I'm that dork that prefers to watch his anime in English.

Also, I agree with FargoDog. If the show is set in Japan or is inherently Japanese, like K-On! or FLCL, then they should keep in the honorifics just for immersion's sake.

I'm gonna go out on a tangent here...

Then you have the English dub of Persona 4: The Animation. My biggest problem with the dub is that there isn't a single honorific used, even though the game is full of the stuff. If you're going to adapt something based on the original, then stay true to the subject matter. That's where they fucked up with the translation. I'm used to these certain characters using honorifics all the time, but in the show, they don't use them one bit. That really grinds my gears.

 

[Cloudydays]

I don't mind it. And I'm that dork that prefers to watch his anime in English.

Also, I agree with FargoDog. If the show is set in Japan or is inherently Japanese, like K-On! or FLCL, then they should keep in the honorifics just for immersion's sake.

I'm gonna go out on a tangent here...

Then you have the English dub of Persona 4: The Animation. My biggest problem with the dub is that there isn't a single honorific used, even though the game is full of the stuff. If you're going to adapt something based on the original, then stay true to the subject matter. That's where they fucked up with the translation. I'm used to these certain characters using honorifics all the time, but in the show, they don't use them one bit. That really grinds my gears.

Oof, which is why I would prefer to stick with English Subs instead of Dubs. Persona is just too great to ruin with an Eng Dub.

Sorry, I didn't realize by "English Adaptations" we included Animes in English Dubs (I assumed Subs)

 

[neonsword13-ops]

Oof, which is why I would prefer to stick with English Subs instead of Dubs. Persona is just too great to ruin with an Eng Dub.

Sorry, I didn't realize by "English Adaptations" we included Animes in English Dubs (I assumed Subs)

But here's the thing: I love the English dub of the Persona 4 game. One of the strongest dubs I've ever heard. Everyone delivers an incredibly strong performance with their characters and they actually got me invested in the characters. Invested enough to make me cry when the game ended. T-T

But with the anime, everything turns to shit. But I have a feeling this was all because of the dub's director.

I was... extremely disappointed with the final product. The Persona 4 anime is the only anime I prefer to watch in subs.

*Also, if you like Persona, you should totally join the Persona usergroup. It's pretty cool. >->
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/groups/view/Shin-Megami-Tensei-Persona

 

[shintakie10]

I'm going to take the coward's thinking man's way out and say it depends on the exact material. Generally I think honorifics and other little turns of phrase Japanese characters use are just indicative of overall tone and shouldn't be translated directly. See also "Believe it!". I don't like "san", "sama", "chan", "kun" or any of those should be translated either. But sometimes it works to just communicate with the overall approach, i.e. the character's dialogue is respectful/reverent rather than saying "sama", and sometimes it's better to just keep the honorifics. Although it often sounds a bit silly in an anime that is otherwise in English, unless the character is distinctly Japanese as opposed to the rest of the cast.

The believe it thing is somethin that's bothered me for a very long time. Dattebayo means nothin. Its not a word. Its somethin he just created out of thin air. The author talked about it bein a sort of tone for the character.

There was absolutely no way to translate that, so they just...made some shit up that half the time doesn't even work in context of the speech.

Dunno why they didn't just leave the whole thing out to be honest.

On topic!

Agree with the depends people. It helps, a lot of the time, to show relationships between characters that normally have to be shown to audiences. If two characters are present and one calls the other somethin-sama then you know that there's a large amount of respect involved, either as a student/teacher relationship or just general reverence.

Really, sama is generally the only one I think should always stay since its the hardest to actually show. If they could just make up scenes it wouldn't be so bad, but these are always dubs of a show that's been goin on for quite a while. You have 0 wiggle room to try to explain relationships anymore than they already have been. Plus, its really the only one that is really easy to explain since -kun, -chan, and -san have an extraordinarily large amount of meanins dependin on context, tone, and who is sayin it to who. Sama seems pretty universal.

 

[Cloudydays]

I'm going to take the coward's thinking man's way out and say it depends on the exact material. Generally I think honorifics and other little turns of phrase Japanese characters use are just indicative of overall tone and shouldn't be translated directly. See also "Believe it!". I don't like "san", "sama", "chan", "kun" or any of those should be translated either. But sometimes it works to just communicate with the overall approach, i.e. the character's dialogue is respectful/reverent rather than saying "sama", and sometimes it's better to just keep the honorifics. Although it often sounds a bit silly in an anime that is otherwise in English, unless the character is distinctly Japanese as opposed to the rest of the cast.

The believe it thing is somethin that's bothered me for a very long time. Dattebayo means nothin. Its not a word. Its somethin he just created out of thin air. The author talked about it bein a sort of tone for the character.

There was absolutely no way to translate that, so they just...made some shit up that half the time doesn't even work in context of the speech.

Dunno why they didn't just leave the whole thing out to be honest.

On topic!

Agree with the depends people. It helps, a lot of the time, to show relationships between characters that normally have to be shown to audiences. If two characters are present and one calls the other somethin-sama then you know that there's a large amount of respect involved, either as a student/teacher relationship or just general reverence.

Really, sama is generally the only one I think should always stay since its the hardest to actually show. If they could just make up scenes it wouldn't be so bad, but these are always dubs of a show that's been goin on for quite a while. You have 0 wiggle room to try to explain relationships anymore than they already have been. Plus, its really the only one that is really easy to explain since -kun, -chan, and -san have an extraordinarily large amount of meanins dependin on context, tone, and who is sayin it to who. Sama seems pretty universal.

Alright, I'll agree with you here. The dubs to Persona 4 and Persona 4: Arena were pretty good but in comparison to something like an anime? It just feels weird. Sama just shows some respect, you're speaking to someone older than you. -San is universal/default. But the honorifics also define intimacy. You go from calling someone -san to -chan and it shows that you're a bit closer. "Hey, you can call me Yukiko-Chan!"

 

[Ariseishirou]

Only if the show/anime/manga is set in Japan. Otherwise, no, never okay.

 

[PoolCleaningRobot]

I'm not sure. I read a lot of manga but luckily the first series I read had a lot of translator notes that explained that kind of stuff. A new audience would be confused as fuck if they started watching an anime that used honorifics and they were only used to "-san" from the Karate Kid. It completely threw me off when I played Persona 3 and it used honorifics but that game shows me that it can work. Its a bit of crutch though to simply identify people's relationships with each other with a simple suffix but given that's how the show's were made with it in the first place, they might be necessary when you think about it

 

[OtherSideofSky]

It depends, but I would say to avoid it unless it really adds to the setting. For example, Japanese honorifics in a jidai-geki story make much more sense and convey a lot more than they do in a fantasy world or a globe-trotting adventure.

Honestly, I think people prefer them left in mostly because it gives them an illusion of knowing more Japanese than they actually do. Honorifics are easy to learn, but they don't convey nearly as much 'untranslatable' information as many proponents of their use in English translations would have you believe. Any nuance you miss in an English translation is much more likely to come from keigo, and a really good translation will still convey most of that.

I always try to find suitable English replacements for honorifics when I translate, unless someone is actually paying me not to.

 

[PoolCleaningRobot]

Spoiler

EDIT:

What... I am so confused- what is this!?

Look up cracked.com's weirdest comics that feature Obama or something like that. Don't read it when other people are around though...

 

[lordmardok]

Yes, you do need to keep the honorifics. This isn't because of some love I have for Japanese media or culture, it's actually out of a sense of literary fidelity. In Japanese culture the honorifics denote how comfortable someone is with someone else, so there can be whole arcs/chapters/episodes/whathaveyou about one character becoming comfortable enough to use another character's name sans -san, if you will (that was terrible I'm so sorry.)

Simply put, there are numerous important bits of characterization and development that readers would miss out on without the honorifics. That's not even mentioning that what honorific or lack thereof that a character uses defines very early on how that character views the one he or she is speaking to. For instance, if they speak without honorific at all then it implies either very close friends or utter contempt depending on the context, and that would be utterly lost if you dropped them entirely.

That's just my two cents anyways.

 

[nat_401]

Its jarring to me and I wish more effort was put into translating honorifics and terms of respect. Instances like friends dropping honorifics can be represented by them starting to using shortened nicknames instead of full names, it can seem lazy to just stick Japanese words in instead of using the English language to the fullest.

 

[The Great JT]

I have no strong feelings one way or the other. I can understand why some series use them and I can understand why some series don't. If they want to use 'em, go ahead, if not then why not.

 

[Trueflame]

Subs and manga translations should keep the honorifics and other details. They are an important element of the storyline and establish characters, aren't hard to learn, and don't detract at all from the reading. If it's a dub though... Then I would say they should be omitted, and the message conveyed in some other way, perhaps through excessive politeness or formality, or terms of respect, and so on. English is not such a poor language that it is impossible to tell when someone is of a lower rank than another, or when someone is trying to be extra nice or sweet to someone. And hearing the honorifics spoken in a dub just sounds weird. Not to mention that I feel like the people who watch dubs, by virtue of watching a dub, have already shown that they are not overly concerned with getting the full depth of the original's meaning, so they wouldn't care from missing a bit of the inter-character politics/relations.

 

[Asita]

If it's setting is explicitly outside of Japan, like say Hellsing, Baccano or Monster or draws heavily on foreign (to Japan) influences like FullMetal Alchemist? No honorifics. A 15th century Romanian who's working for the Church of England in England (and briefly Brazil) should not be using Japanese at all, much less the language's honorifics towards people with a similar lack of experience with Japanese culture, nor should 1930s gangsters in the USA be using them.

If it's set in Japan like Ouran High School Host Club[footnote]set in Tokyo[/footnote], Persona 4[footnote]The town of Inaba that the game is set in is fictional, but various details throughout the game makes the country readily apparent[/footnote], or Durarara[footnote]Which actually goes to great pains to reproduce the actual layout of Ikebukuro[/footnote] or draws heavily on Japanese culture/folklore/whatever like Samurai Seven? I'd certainly lean more 'for' than 'against'. If the setting is never elaborated on or is fully fictional...well that's really a case by case basis, I think. To echo what was said before, a story about character relations could greatly benefit from the nuance provided by honorifics, but a straight up beat-em-up show usually won't need that.

 

[SuperSuperSuperGuy]

Depends if it's thematically appropriate. There aren't many equivalent terms in English, and the honorifics that we do have aren't as varied or nuanced as Japanese ones. If a series is heavily steeped in Japanese culture, then it's completely okay, because it's appropriate for the setting and subject matter. And example of this is Persona 4; they left the honorifics in tact, and it doesn't take away from the game at all. However, a series where it is inappropriate should not have honorifics. A series like Baccano, which takes place in prohibition-era America, would suffer from including Japanese honorifics. In addition, a series that is sort of culturally neutral should try to avoid honorifics, though it's excusable for ones that have no really English equivalent, i.e. "senpai".

EDIT: Also, honorifics are sometimes used in characterization. If they're important to the work, then they should be kept.