Right to die?

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RobfromtheGulag

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May 18, 2010
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That's probably the most frightening thought for a suicidal person. They go through all the trouble to OD or jump off a building or hang themselves, and then wake up in the damn hospital and have to do it all over again.

There's the touchey-feeley people that'll say 'we all need to live!', but bottom line is if anyone cared enough about this guy he wouldn't be trying in the first place. And it's not a responsibility either -- you set your own outlook, and can't rely on others to bring you out of a funk every time.

So, yea, I think people should have a 'right to die'. Wasn't there a court case about this recently? I think it was a terminally ill fella though. IMO even if you're not terminally ill you should have the option. That's just me though.
 

Trippy Turtle

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May 10, 2010
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I'd save them if I was there because I don't want a death on my conscience but its everyone's right to suicide if they want to. I think its better if they manage it away from other people so others don't get dragged into it, but who am I to say how they are allowed to kill themselves.
 

PanasonicYouth

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Aug 26, 2010
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To clear a few things up for those who've asked questions:
We have previous records showing they've been brought in a few times for similar attempts, and on the night in question there were several witnesses to confirm that they did indeed throw themselves in front of the car. So we knew by the time he got to us that it was a suicide attempt.
We had absolutely no luck in finding any sort of contact details for relatives/friends. They had no registered next of kin, and in a crunch situation you don't have much time for detective work!

squidface said:
It strikes me as odd that a person wanting to die, who tried committing and then failed, would go to a hospital. If they hadn't changed their mind, I doubt they wouldn't just leave themselves at the side of the road to die. Going to a hospital seems like a cry for help, so saving their life is probably the right thing to do.

Also shouldn't there be like a trigger warning on this or something? D:
They didn't take themselves to the hospital, they were brought in unconscious with severe head and internal injuries.

I'm not sure what you mean by a trigger warning, did I post this inorrectly? If so, I'm very sorry.
 

squidface

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Jun 3, 2012
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PanasonicYouth said:
snip

They didn't take themselves to the hospital, they were brought in unconscious with severe head and internal injuries.

I'm not sure what you mean by a trigger warning, did I post this inorrectly? If so, I'm very sorry.
Ohh, that makes more sense now. xD

And you didn't post it incorrectly as such, just that this topic deals with suicide in the OP, as well as death, which may/may not be a trigger for people with suicidal tendencies/depression etc. who might read the topic. Trigger, read = something that may trigger their depression etc.

HTH :)
 

PanasonicYouth

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Aug 26, 2010
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squidface said:
And you didn't post it incorrectly as such, just that this topic deals with suicide in the OP, as well as death, which may/may not be a trigger for people with suicidal tendencies/depression etc. who might read the topic. Trigger, read = something that may trigger their depression etc.

HTH :)
Ah ok. Didn't think about that, and I probably should have. Very sorry.
 

squidface

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PanasonicYouth said:
squidface said:
And you didn't post it incorrectly as such, just that this topic deals with suicide in the OP, as well as death, which may/may not be a trigger for people with suicidal tendencies/depression etc. who might read the topic. Trigger, read = something that may trigger their depression etc.

HTH :)
Ah ok. Didn't think about that, and I probably should have. Very sorry.
LOOK WHAT YOU HAVE DONE.

No but seriously, it's fine! Especially if you didn't know, or it just didn't cross your mind. :D you know for next time !

and ofc, knowing is half the battle. O_O
 

Thistlehart

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Nov 10, 2010
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PanasonicYouth said:
squidface said:
And you didn't post it incorrectly as such, just that this topic deals with suicide in the OP, as well as death, which may/may not be a trigger for people with suicidal tendencies/depression etc. who might read the topic. Trigger, read = something that may trigger their depression etc.

HTH :)
Ah ok. Didn't think about that, and I probably should have. Very sorry.
I don't think you should be, and nor should you have to have thought about "Trigger" topics.

If you start censoring yourself from talking about sensitive subjects because you might inspire a random unknown to do something harmful to themselves or others, you may as well sew your mouth shut and cut off your fingers.

Don't hold yourself responsible for the actions of others.
 

babinro

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Sep 24, 2010
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I don't know enough about attempted suicide to really comment there. If death is pretty much a certainty though, it seems a waste of resources to attend to them as the OP states. For all I know though, doing that process actually saves 1 in a million lives.
Perhaps that small chance and the effort to try is all that matters.

I think someone in a stable state of mind who chooses euthanasia should be accommodated.

The problem here, besides ethical, is how does someone determine what a proper state of mind is so to completely eliminate all blame from any future complaints/law suits.

My mom died of cancer. She had accomplished all her major life goals.
She opted to refuse treatment so as to not prolong the pain any more than was necessary.
I don't see why someone in this situation should be denied the option of euthanasia.
I'd want the same for myself were I in her situation.
 

Korolev

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Jul 4, 2008
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Consult the Advanced Health Care Directive, or the equivalent. If they don't have one, recommend that the patient get one made. The AHCD is essentially a legal document that informs the Hospital on what you do/don't want done in the event that you are incapacitated.

If he is set on suicide, he should make up a AHCD (or whatever the equivalent is in the nation you work in), or wear a DNR bracelet.

As for whether or not we should let someone die - I don't think we can make that decision for them. If they want to die, we should let them die, provided that they are not DELUSIONAL. As in, paranoid, or hallucinating or otherwise mentally disturbed. Depression is not Delusion - it's a mental illness, but you don't see things that aren't there. In medical ethics, we are taught that if someone is competent, their decision stands. If they don't want treatment, we cannot provide treatment.

And remember - competence does not have to mean they're making good decisions - only that they are capable of making a decision after comprehending the info. If they can't comprehend the info, then they are incompetent. If they can comprehend information and what the doctors tell him, then he is competent, regardless of the decision he makes. If he wants to kill himself, and he isn't delusional or incapacitated, then the honest truth is, we have to respect that decision and let him kill himself.

At least, that's how it works in Australia.
 

Filiecs

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May 24, 2011
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There is a really good essay I read on this recently called "letting go".
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/08/02/100802fa_fact_gawande

Personally, I am in support of discussions with those who have a terminal illness. I feel that the best decision one can make is an informed one and that patients should be able to make an informed decision over how they want to spend their final days.
I do not feel that we should choose who should/should not die and we should always assume that someone wants to live unless it is stated otherwise.
Finally, i feel hospice would be a better option rather than consented suicide as it allows a patient to live their final days in without pain and in peace.
 

DoomyMcDoom

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triggrhappy94 said:
I don't think we should up hold someone's wish to die. Depression is the result of a chemical inbalance in the brain. Floading the system with drugs isn't the answer either, however. Instead of paying for multiple ER visits, insurance/whoever should have them see a therapist or a psychiatrist. I know doctor are allowed to deem someone mentally unfit and hold them for 24 hours if they've attempted suicide.
Just want to put this out there, sometimes a state of depression isn't caused by chemical imbalance but by overwhelming circumstance, I've been there, multiple times, I was put on antidepressants of multiple varieties and y'know what they did? Made me more suicidal because they weren't working propperly with my brain chemistry, and were essencially causing me to feel no emotion whatsoever, also causing ED and insomnia, I just wanted the hell that was a life that was so shit I could only dread the coming day and fear the dreams that came with sleep, with the medication, I was tired all the time, couldn't think straight, and couldn't feel anything, it felt like I was a ghost, wandering in a haze between worlds, like nothing was really real.

That was some 12 years ago, and life has only started to improve, over the last year I could only stop thinking about how death would feel, and being rather strongly contested between my hatred of giving up and the weakness that represented(which would kill the meagre reputational legacy I'd leave behind, and hurt everyone I cared for), and the release that death would bring from the agony, constant stress, self loathing, and the lack of a visible solution to any of my life's many difficulties, by smoking a copious ammount of marijuana and working my ass off at as many jobs or tasks as I could find, to keep me away from the dangerous realm of being awake with nothing to do.

Lemme clarify this so you don't think I'm just some Emo idiot from a middle class family who's sad because he doesn't get enough attention. I grew up in a household, paid for by my mom's welfare cheques and under the table work, which paid for a minimal ammount of food and not much else for my mom, myself, my sister, and my grandmother.
I've never met my dad, but my mother and sister both have told me about him, he was a violent drunk, and my mother left him while pregnant with me, to save us all from the dangers he represented to my mother my (at the time) 4 and a half year old sister, and my unborn self.
As a child I worked for the favours I recieved, I did most of the work around the house, and did manual labour for others in exchange for pocket money, when I was 7 I started mowing lawns, and I chopped firewood for a neighbour.
My life was one of few friends, and much work. My family was constantly fighting amongst themselves, and using me as an unwitting spy/pawn against eachother, which resulted in me becoming a scape goat for them, and being told how bad/worthless I was in between admiration for my easy grasp of advanced math, higher than average for an adult vocabulary(when I was young), which resulted in giving me incredibly mixed messages, all while being taught "Christian" values, of servitude, and humillity, my self immage was nonexistant as was the concept of self esteem.

When it comes to depression, there are many forms, some are caused by underlying dissabilities that cause problems for people in life, causing situational depression.
There's a form of seasonal depression for those who live in darker climates, due to lack of sunlight exposure, causing vitamin deficiencies.
A diet too low in the correct fats, and devoid of cholesterol will cause nervous system degradation, and an imbalance in the production of endorphins, essencially rendering the brain incapable of preducing the things you need to be happy and not feel like shit all the time.
And there are direct instabilities in brain chemistry caused by genetic defects, which can be treated with certain medications which act as a replacement/additive to what the brain lacks, or underproduces.

Most of the time the type of depression, and causes that lie therein, require a lot of knowledge of a person's situation, diet, and family background when relating to hereditarily apparent dissabillities and disseases, and I'm not sure if it's just me, and some of the people I've known, but it seems that some psychiatrists are more likely to just try a bunch of drugs on you than they are to dig deep enough into your life to find root causes, other than just assuming there's something wrong with your brain, and putting you on medications to try and treat it.

I've been doing exceptionally fine lately, and that's due to my life not being a hopeless dready poverty stricken slog, with no light at the end of the debt tunnel where I reside, I've moved to a significantly cheaper, and better paying place than I was for most of my life, and I should have most, if not all of my financial problems dealt with within the year.
As such, I am not constantly stressed out, I'm not having to work two or more jobs just to feed myself and pay rent, and I can see opertunities other than a possible career in drug dealing, ahead of me, things that seem like I may have a life worth bothering with.

I can understand that preserving life is important, but sometimes, I do think that it's a great source of indignity to those determined to die, being prevented from doing so over and over again, in this case since they couldn't really ask him whether he wanted saving, there's not much choice in the matter, it's their job to save his life... I do think that if a patient requests non-interference, or requests lethal injection, that their request should be considered, and their choice respected.
 

DkLnBr

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MetalMagpie said:
People can do things on the spur of the moment that they later regret, especially when suffering from depression. So in the case you described, I think the doctors should do all they can to save the person.

More generally, I do believe we have a right to die. My life belongs to me, and I should have the right to end it if I no longer want to continue with it.

However, someone needs to be judged capable of making that decision before being allowed to end their own life. (Which is the most relevant in DNR and assisted suicide cases.)
This.
If they lost their job, wife, and house in a short time span then they wont be thinking clearly. Once they get their life back on track they should be fine. However if someone has put a lot of thought into it, and genuinely wants to die, then wouldn't forcing them to live be a little cruel? Making them live the rest of their life in a life that they hate

EDIT: Also, if they want to die that badly, then they'll just attempt suicide again, making all the time and resources spent saving them will have gone to waste
 

AngloDoom

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Aug 2, 2008
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PanasonicYouth said:
It's a very interesting conundrum, to say the least.

If someone wants to end their life they have the option of refusing to consent to life saving surgery. Then again, if they do refuse life saving surgery then many would consider that a sign of poor mental health, which can be used to argue that they're not capable of making that decision.

I honestly couldn't begin to fathom an answer to this. People need help so they don't feel as if life isn't worth it, but that's very easy to say when I'm laying back in bed, young and waiting for a new job to start so I can get on with what I hope to be a bright shiny future.
 

GTwander

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Mar 26, 2008
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It's not up to you OP, it's up to the department head as to whether do the most expensive procedures and then send the bill to his next of kin... or to just say they did, and still send that bill.
 

PanasonicYouth

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GTwander said:
It's not up to you OP, it's up to the department head as to whether do the most expensive procedures and then send the bill to his next of kin... or to just say they did, and still send that bill.
I know it's not up to me. We consulted with... Well, the consultant, and he made the decision to go ahead. I'm not sure if they're called consultants in the US of A, attending maybe?
Not important. I just really couldn't actually make that decision either way, and had a long think about how hard it must be to be the person who DOES have to make those decisions.

Also, I'm in England, so there wouldn't be a bill.
 

eternal-chaplain

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Mar 17, 2010
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I have only one response to such a thread:

Literally the only video with that line in it.
 

GTwander

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PanasonicYouth said:
Also, I'm in England, so there wouldn't be a bill.
What a backwards country...

The states, in it's infinite wisdom, asks you "how much is your life worth to you?" - then doubles it...
 

PanasonicYouth

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Aug 26, 2010
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GTwander said:
PanasonicYouth said:
Also, I'm in England, so there wouldn't be a bill.
What a backwards country...

The states, in it's infinite wisdom, asks you "how much is your life worth to you?" - then doubles it...
Well, if something's worth paying for, it's definitely worth charging for.
 

dangoball

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Starik20X6 said:
While I can see both sides of the argument here, and am in no way qualified to answer this sort of thing, I will say this: I figure it's so frighteningly easy to die by accident, there's no way you could fail to kill yourself if you truly meant it. I can only see a 'failed' suicide attempt as a desperate cry for help. To go screaming in the face of millions of years of evolution and survival instinct takes some serious commitment.
I will have to disagree with you on failed suicides. Yes, some (maybe most) of them are calls for help, like wrist cutting or jumping of a building (lot of time to get saved/lots of onlookers), however, luck is a *****. You can die when you slip on stairs and you can survive a self-inflicted gunshot to the head, and not only by using .38 or .22LR. Shaky hand and all that sawn-off shotgun will do is blast of your face, leaving you alive and in hell of a pain. Heck, you can even survive bathing in gasoline and lighting yourself on fire (and then you'll know what wanting to die really means).
Long story short, human body is not as fragile and survival instinct is quite strong. Deaths by accident seem so easy because nothing in you expects life threatening situation, therefore no defensive mechanism kick in. When you want to kill yourself your body knows and tries to survive.

OT:
Yes, I firmly believe that euthanasia should be a human right and it sickens me when law forbids terminally ill person in lots of pain from dying because "it's inhumane". We put our pets to rest with the logic that it's to "ease their suffering", so why can't that logic apply to a fellow human?

In OPs case, I would consider that a waste of resources but as a doctor I would try to save him. With minimal effort, just so I don't loose my license.
 

DanDeFool

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Aug 19, 2009
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PanasonicYouth said:
Ok, been rolling this one about in my head, thought I might as well get a little discussion going.
I work in neurological operating theatres as a nurse. A few nights ago while I was working we had an emergency patient come in after throwing themselves in front of a car. The patient was forty years old, had a history of depression and alcoholism, and this was not their first suicide attempt.

By the time they came to theatres their pupils had been fixed and dilated for about an hour, if you're not too sure what this means, I can tell you it's definitely not good news. This person was basically rolling through the doors dead.
The decision was made to do everything we could to save the persons life, even though both surgeons and the anaesthetist thought it was a forgone conclusion.
I thought to myself, is this a waste of time and resources?

Don't get me wrong here, the whole reason I do what I do is because I want to help people, but would this person thank us for doing it? If they miraculously survive are they not going to just try again? It really hit home to me the fragile balance doctors have to keep between respecting the wishes of a patient and doing everything in their power to save lives. It's also worth keeping in mind that anyone has the right to refuse life saving surgery if they're capable of doing so.

What decision would you guys make if you were in the doctors position?
In the doctors position? You try to save that person, because litigation does not care about right and wrong. If you make a judgment call not to try and save the person (triage notwithstanding), and you don't have a legally-binding DNR in your hand, my guess is that if anyone tries to take you to court, you're brown bread.

I wouldn't worry about the morality too much, since you're already dealing with the most amoral force in the universe: lawyers.