Rooting for the bad guys

[Thistlehart]

Beware, Wall O' Text inbound!

Super Snip

Concerning LotR.
I think it is important to mention that the Wizards that exist in Middle Earth are not human. No one is born with magical ability because there is no such thing as "magic" in Middle Earth.

What Wizards such as Gandalf and Saruman employ is essentially the raw power of the firmament that only they and some elves can tap into (re. miracles). The Wizards can do this because they are actually aspects/servants of greater spirits (re. demigods). That is why Gandalf says he was "sent back until my task is complete." His boss said he wasn't done, gave him a promotion and some bigger guns, and booted him back into the field.

Another example is Elrond. Elrond and his family can perform feats that may appear to be magical, but in fact they are simply derived forces that already exist and because of his intimate and expansive knowledge he can employ them. This is why he is referred to as a Loremaster. Much of what he does is actually science of a sort and applied history.

Concerning WoW.
WoW actually does have magic, and that is what is holding technology back. Why build sophisticated flying machines when you can tame gryphons? Why manufacture rifles when you have people that can call down fire with words and gestures? What good are tanks and planes against demons the size of fortresses that can belch hellfire?

Why are people taking swords into battle instead of/against guns? Because those swords are more than just hunks of carefully crafted metal with sharp edges. They're magic swords. In the case of Frostmourne, very powerful magic swords. Magic sword > gun (see Star Wars).

As a sidenote, technology only exists because of the gnomes and the goblins. They are very diminutive races with no more magical capabilities than any other race. They have had to develope quickly to compensate the physical gap between their races and the rest.

Concerning OT.
It depends on the bad guy and their presentation, I must say. Motivation and intent play a hand, as do style and general badassery.

For instance, I'm not fond of Emperor Palpatine. He's too "I am evil, muahahahaaa evil!" He went through the long and arduous process of uniting the Galaxy into one Empire so that he could rule it and hold ultimate power. That's all. Boring and cliche. However, I like Darth Vader because he is evil with style and a hint of tragedy (ignoring the prequels). He helped Palpatine because he wanted a peaceful and united Galaxy. Unfortunately, he went a tad bonkers and his efforts left some rather horrendous skid-marks.

Similar to someone mentioned above, I enjoyed Arthas. Even his start in WC3 was compelling. He was desperate to save his people, this desperation lead him to be corrupted, and afterward he is still trying to save his people, but coming from the other direction. First he tries to save his land from the Scourge, then he tries to save it with the Scourge (though in a very bent way, being, after all, insane). Also, he's something of a high-fantsy Bond villan. I would be interested to see what Azeroth would have looked like had he won.

Oh, and let's not forget the werewolves in Dog Soldiers. I was rooting for them because, if they didn't win, they'd become part of something far more sinister (re. secret weapons project). Don't get me wrong, I felt bad for the soldiers. They were badasses and did themselves justice considering their situation, but they got screwed royally (get it? they were English? "for queen and country"? no? damn...). It was a fight for survival, and in the end I supported the ones I felt most deserved it.

In short, I like a bad guy that has a convincing motivation for doing what he/she does, and is somewhat heroic in his/her own way.

 

[Thyunda]

snip

Yes, tower shields ARE designed to cover the entire body, but then, have you seen the kind of person who'd hold a tower shield? Yeah. He's not likely to be a hobbit. Hobbits are the most physically inept of all the races, hence their almost pacifistic nature.

And I can only think of one other wizard, and that's Radagast the Brown. Though it is hinted at (a lot) that there used to be a lot more of them.

LoTR. I do not root for the good guys or the bad guys. I find the entire series fun to watch or read but utterly retarded at the same time. Hundreds of years of constant war? HOW HAVE YOU NOT INVENTED ANYTHING MORE COMPLEX THAN A CROSSBOW.

To be fair, it took us 1600 years of constant war in Europe to develop anything more complex than a crossbow.

Ok, fair point. However the situation is slightly different. The wars in Europe were not wars of survival. I mean, the states involved were fighting for power, glory and the continuation of the lineage. Gondor is fighting for THE SURVIVAL OF HUMANITY.

Finally...

I cannot find the exact amount of time LoTR has been in technology stasis. Aragorn is part of the 39th generation following Isildurs death. The war has been going on for that long, without a break, in Gondor. We started the first world war with tanks. We ended it with nukes. That was within 4 years. Ok, different times, Technology was already advancing at a rather alarming rate.

But in 39 generations of war, 39 generations of a war for your very SURVIVAL, they have not made a single discovery. Not one.

Although my main problem with the films and books is the amount of times they are being shot at but get lucky. Seriously. Not one of them thinks to carry a shield. And, bar Boromir, NONE OF THEM PAY FOR IT.

You do have a fair point with your second paragraph. As in, a very fair point. I remember, when reading the Lord of the Rings, being completely unable to comprehend the vast time differences between historic events and current ones. If the Second Era had ended with more primitive weaponry (as in, chainmail and iron swords) it'd be more believable. But the fact that Anduril is as valid a sword in Aragorn's time as it was in Isildur's time makes absolutely no sense.

It's not even as if they were totally broke and unable to afford weapon-development. Maybe they just trusted in magic? By the time of LOTR, at least, Denethor was pretty delusional, so maybe he would have forbidden it?

I don't know why I'm trying to rationalise it. Put simply, it doesn't actually make much sense. But it DOES explain why the shambolic hordes of Mordor were so effective. THEY made advancements in weaponry and armour, and even machinery. Saruman's Uruk-hai employed explosive devices when assaulting Helm's Deep. They wore plate armour and carried specialised blades.

But...then...Isengard was destroyed by the trees. THAT must be why. Every time they try to get anywhere significant, the bloody environmentalists fight back.

And...I don't think we employed nuclear weaponry in the First World War. Tanks and fighter aircraft were the major advancements back then - and not even 'tank' tanks. No cannons...well, no turret. The male tanks had two cannons, two machine-guns. The females four machineguns. What was I talking about?

Oh. One last thing. Boromir was the only person to carry a shield. And he was the only one taken down by arrows.
Though it makes sense in context. Four Hobbits - the shield is about their height. That is not a sensible piece of equipment to be carrying. Legolas and Aragorn are archers. The only reasonable shield for them would be a buckler, which wouldn't be much help against arrows. Gimli's a heavily armoured dwarf. Shield is pretty much unnecessary. Boromir, as we know, carried a shield. I'm missing somebody. Who the hell am I missing?
Gandalf? Was he part of the Fellowship? Yes. I suppose he was. For a while, anyway. Gandalf is a wizard. He don't need no shield.

In fairness isn't that a deliberate chocie, that only is technology not getting betteer, it's getting worse. Think of it from the viewpoint of Someone in Dark Ages Europe, the Roman Empire has gone and all this stuff from aqeducts and roads are not being built anymore, heck most people don't know how to build them.

Noww Lord of the rings does this throw the idea of the civiilisations of Numernor and the various elfen ones. Society seems to be in regressionf or these people because it is. Noone has the wealth to make these huge giant statues, refine steel and the like.

I don't know...Gondor seems fairly wealthy, at least until the Orcs start streaming out again. Rohan is the only one with an excuse, and that's because the Rohirrim have their horses and shortbows, and if Genghis and Kubilai Khan could conquer the everything between Baghdad and Paris with that, the Rohirrim really had no need to advance. Crossbows might be easier to aim, but they're harder to reload, especially on horseback. Their armour has no reason to be anything heavier than leather, and they don't appear to have the nearby resources to go about inventing gunpowder.

Also - take a look at Gondor's military. Look at their swords. There is no way they're anything less than perfectly refined steel. But, you know what else was perfectly refined steel? Isildur's blade. And the Elven blades. AND the Gondorian swords back then, too. They're technologically static in an era of war. Complacency, perhaps? Confident in the power of Man and the protection of the Elves? Sauron's gone, therefore we don't need to arm ourselves for war anymore.

Course not. All the disputes were pretty much diplomatic and within Gondor. The only people keeping up any semblance of martial culture was Rohan, and that's because they're essentially Scandinavian.
Ooh, though there is one faction that intrigued me beyond all else. The Easterlings. And the Corsairs. Is it ironic that the most mysterious and interesting of the factions present in the whole Lord of the Rings universe are the two antagonistic human groups?

And march out of the South East (With reference to the Haradrhim) and look distinctly Arab? *cough* The Elves are fleeing to the safe lands in the West, all forms of evil are coming from the East, the last hope of humanity is a bunch of white men because those brown guys are evil. Oh, ok, and hobits and the like. Also, the Rohirim are not as much based on Scandinavian culture as they are based on Norman culture.

Tolkein was not that inventive. The Shire and the lands of Rohan were based upon Brittany in North Western France. The people of Britainy being short and rather peaceful with a strong history of agriculture and (This might come as a shock) but in Normandy there were a bunch of Horse Lords. They had a few castles. They were the castles of Rohan. Yeah. Been there. Oh, they also had a really fancy sword that they gave to the leaders of the castles. Derf.

I still think that static technology is rather unbelievable. All things considered. But it is a fantasy setting so you must take some things for granted. Tbh, I find the technology in World of Warcraft significantly more annoying.

I could live with the presence of guns in Warcraft...but when they started bringing in more and more ridiculous technology, I had to opt out of all immersion. Muskets and blunderbusses I can live with. Missiles and cars. No.

And y'know, I was always taught that The Shire was based on the Black Country - as in south Staffordshire. The hint being in the name. And this might shock you, but Norman means 'Norseman'. Normandy is the land given to the Danes when they attacked France. England gave them money, France gave them land. So Scandinavian culture is still the basis.

Though to be fair - it's not surprise that the East would march on the West. Throughout history, the East has always seemed somewhat more civilised than the West - to the point where the crusading Franks were a horde of unwashed barbarians soiling the lovely Afghan fabrics of the Arabic cities. It was hard to see the Easterlings as 'Evil Men' when they wore eyeliner.

 

[Lazy Kitty]

All the time.
In games, I prefer being the bad guy.

 

[C F]

Avatar. I can never resist shouting out "Heck yeah, Capitalism!"

In general, I prefer my bad guys to be obviously evil: remorseless yet affable. I even like the Covenant better than the UNSC. You know, aside from the fact that their over-zealous military command structure is laughably idiotic compared to the UNSC's mechanical efficiency. But still, big ups for hammy Elites.

And Eggman. One of his plans involved forcing the world to yield and become his "Eggman Empire" within 24 hours, or he'll blow up the Earth! He even blew up half the moon as a demonstration. The best part was that he was really about to go through with it at the end of the 24 hours. I just love the fact that the obvious question of 'okay, and then what do we do?' never occurred to him.

 

[Aerosteam]

Just like lots of others said in this thread, Avatar.
I wanted the aliens to lose, I really hated their appearance.

... Damn it, I can't think of anything else. Bah, I'll edit this post later.

 

[rob_simple]

Law abiding citizen. I wanted the bad guy to win soooo bad.

You are correct, sir.

I'm usually in favour of the bad guys winning when they have a more relatable backstory than the hero (Ed Harris in The Rock, for example.)

It is weird that in most action films the antagonist has usually lost his family/friends/village/country whatever and is psychologically complex whereas the hero is the hero purely by virtue of being white and American.

 

[TheIronRuler]

Did you ever root for the bad guys when you were watching/playing a movie/show/game. If so, why did you root for them? Personally I always went for the bad guys when I was a kid. I think it was because of just how powerful they were compared to the protagonist.

.
Law Abiding Citizen.
Why did he had to lose? The only fleshed out and worthy character with the most interesting story is the villain.... why can't he win? Why does the law has to always win???

 

[Da Orky Man]

I wanted the humans in Avatar to win so badly. Mainly because I was sick of the "white guilt" stuff and Stephen Lang was hilariously badass.

Don't worry... with the massive amount of money to be made from Pandora the humans will be back with more than just a handful of mercenaries. The blue monkeys will get bombarded from orbit

I actually hated that it is getting a sequel. That was my own ending I made for it. The humans come back with an army and blow them to hell from orbit, the end.

If James Cameron has any sense of reality left, this is the only way Avatar's sequel could look like. Why they didn't do this as they were retreating i'll never know.

 

[Seagoon]

Did you ever root for the bad guys when you were watching/playing a movie/show/game. If so, why did you root for them? Personally I always went for the bad guys when I was a kid. I think it was because of just how powerful they were compared to the protagonist.

I always love a pretty awesome bad guy! Chris Genovese (or DeMico, depending on the book or the film) from kick Ass was epic! In Troy, I got the feeling I was supposed to be on the side of the Troy, but I still was rooting for bad guys!

 

[SD-Fiend]

Avatar: It's not that I wanted the Navi to lose I just think it's stupid how the humans lost

Chase cartoons(tom and jerry, Wile.E coyote,ETC)especially sincein most of them the bad guy's just trying to get food...

 

[Da Orky Man]

The bad guys winning opens up more interesting plots for sequels. I would love to play an FPS where you know you are going to lose. Say a resistance game like "Saboteur" but in the climax the mission fails and you see everything you know and love get destroyed.

Halo Reach kinda fits in there. Anyone who played much Halo before knew that Reach was screwed before, so it doesn't come as much of a surprise. Sure, you get the whole 'noble sacrifice for one last chance' stuff, but it's still done pretty well.

I myself was on the side of the Empire in Star Wars. If you look a bit further on in canon, basically, the entire galaxy get slaughtered by extra-galactical aliens. If the had never been a Rebel Alliance, if the Empire had remained as it was, then maybe trillions wouldn't have died.

 

[Professor Idle]

Ok, I'm not cross, I just saw Avatar when I was rather tired and may have missed a few points here:

The Na'vi live in their own world and have come up with their own way of life and are content, the humans invade cos they want some special sort of fuel and we're supposed to feel bad for the humans?

The other point was that people don't like the Na'vi cos they look different? Is this just the internet being hateful or do people in general just follow the philosophy that if something looks different, it's ok to exploit/attack it?

I mean, sure, the whole Na'vi way of life might have been seen as pretentious and maybe it was forcing a little too much encouragement on us to support them, but enough for us to decide that their way of life should end, even though it was none of the humans' business?

 

[AkaDad]

I was rooting for the bad guys in Battle L.A. They need water to survive, so they put on their alien bootstraps and took it from an inferior species. Some of those aliens were bad-asses too.

 

[Snowblindblitz]

Afro Samurai.

The main character is the bad guy. He is motivated solely by revenge, and kills anyone to get to his goal. Friends, even those he considered his brother, he has and continues to cut down. The good guys are always full of tragedy, because Afro inflicts it on everyone in his path.

 

[The]

The bad guys in The Taking of Pelham 123. The original one of course. I didn't watch the remake.

 

[TerribleAssassin]

Voldermort.

He has every fucking right to kill the one person who can stop him!

 

[Toaster Hunter]

Yes, everyone should more often too. Modern media has become to soft and kid friendly. I hate it so much.

I'm going with the crowd and say Avatar. I can't stand those blue cat people. I all but cheered when one of them died. Also, Stephen Lang is badass incarnate. Its impossible to not like someone like that.

Here's what confused me after the movie. Ok so they win and drive the people off the planet........but.....can't they just nuke them from orbit? I mean, they use bows and arrows, how could they possible think it was a long term victory over the humans? And becoming a terrorist to your ENTIRE SPECIES for a piece of ass is a dick move, no matter how you try to defend it.

I'm hoping for a sequel, Avatar II: Orbital Bombardment

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

Ok, I'm not cross, I just saw Avatar when I was rather tired and may have missed a few points here:

The Na'vi live in their own world and have come up with their own way of life and are content, the humans invade cos they want some special sort of fuel and we're supposed to feel bad for the humans?

The other point was that people don't like the Na'vi cos they look different? Is this just the internet being hateful or do people in general just follow the philosophy that if something looks different, it's ok to exploit/attack it?

I mean, sure, the whole Na'vi way of life might have been seen as pretentious and maybe it was forcing a little too much encouragement on us to support them, but enough for us to decide that their way of life should end, even though it was none of the humans' business?

It was more that I felt like the movie was talking down to me. The Na'vi couldn't have been more obvious if they walked around with signs that said: "I AM AN ALLEGORY FOR THE NATIVE AMERICANS". There was no moral ambiguity. The humans represented colonists and early America and the Na'vi were the Native Americans who were treated horribly by them. The humans are cartoonishly evil to the point that I couldn't take the movie seriously. The writing had no depth.

 

[ccggenius12]

But the fact that Anduril is as valid a sword in Aragorn's time as it was in Isildur's time makes absolutely no sense.

The fact that a master-crafted magic sword is still a valid weapon, after being recently reforged by the elves a few days prior to the conflict, confuses you?

I cannot find the exact amount of time LoTR has been in technology stasis. Aragorn is part of the 39th generation following Isildurs death.

Don't forget, Aragorn is a direct descendant of the men of Numenor. They have lifespans that far exceed those of a normal human, as in, for every generation of them, 3-5 generations of regular humans happen.

A college of mages is hinted. But, Bar Gandalf and Saruman, Name a mage/wizard/magical person in the books.

Tom Bombadil, Elrond, Radaghast the Brown.

Although whether the delusional leader makes any sense in reality is also questionable. Think Isreal, it does not matter who gets into power because the nation is under constant threat and the army rules. Now, to a degree Denethor did rule both the state and the army but... Was the person before him mental as well? Does the entire nation of Gondor have ONE general? Are there no other influencing parties involved?

Like Aragorn, Denethor is descended from the men of Numenor. The fact that he's been alive longer than anyone else in Gondor, as well as the fact that he's still far more physically imposing in his advanced age than any normal human lead to a lot of reverence. Also, Gondor really didn't start going to shit until Sauruman snuck Wormtongue in and started mentally weakening the guy. As for why they don't have better weapons, the weapons of the higher ups are all elvencraft. Humans can't ever hope to rival that. And the random grunts probably can't afford anything better. The fact that that still means they're running around in full armor with swords is a testament to the wealth and prestige of Gondor.

Or, to make another argument (Although I think we are derailing the thread... slightly) The Elves. Thousands of years old. Plenty of time to sit around and think. Also, trying to stop their race from having to flee middle earth once and for all. They have time and money on their hands to develop weapons. They are the finest scholars in middle earth. If Saruman, a pretty smart guy, can develop gunpowder in his lifetime of, say... 80 years? how has Elrond not yet invented the bloody machine gun in his lifetime of several thousand years (Again, cannot find exact dates, but he was there in the time of Isildur and before). Or just think about the wood elves. Xenophobic assholes surrounded by people who hate them, again, immortal and with time to kill. But no technological advances there.

Actually, Saruman and Gandalf are both Maiar. They're the Tolkien equivelent of Angels, and helped build the world. Elves may have been the first race (not so)commonly seen on Middle Earth, but Saruman had been kicking around for millenia before that.

Finally, before I go and eat lunch...

The Dwarves.

Amazing metal workers, miners, able to construct halls of stone that are mind-boggolingly huge. In all of their history of mining (They live till stupidly old too, I believe) they never invented gunpowder to make it easier? (TNT was developed for the mining industry) They never invented some form of explosive to help with shifting rocks? They do not even have the "But they have magic they do not need technology" thing to support them.

They do however have the "created by the god of earth" thing going for them. They don't WANT higher mining technology because they are one with the rock. Any technology would reduce that closeness.

I'd recommend reading the Silmarillion if you haven't. Honestly, Sauron is a chump. He was created by Morgoth(the Lucifer allegory). Morgoth created the Orcs by corrupting elves, and it took the combined might of all of the races, plus the assistance of other gods to take him down. Accounting for that, the weapons on display in LotR ARE the equivalent of a Dark Age technology regression.

To contribute something of my own to this discussion, I root for Team Rocket. They're the only characters in that show with more depth than a piece of paper. I like to think that they're the protagonists of the show, and the kids are such antagonists, that they steal the majority of the screen time.

It was hard to see the Easterlings as 'Evil Men' when they wore eyeliner.

But.. everyone knows that the most evil people always wear eyeliner...(ex. Labyrinth)

 

[Rallus]

I rooted for the aliens in War of The Worlds (The one with Tom Cruise in it). Mainly because of that stupid girl with her constant screaming! Gah! I wish they had just killed her off in the beginning because that entire movie was ruined by the whole "family" thing. I went to see that movie to see aliens fuck the world up. What do I get? Five minutes of that and then an hour of that girl shrieking in the main character's ear because he hasn't had the balls to smack her across the chops.