Root's Fairly Interesting Topics: Snails

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Previous Topics:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.189861-Roots-Fairly-Interesting-Topics-Colo-u-r-blind
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.191408-Roots-Fairly-Interesting-Topics-Time-To-Die

A lot has been talked about our little gastropod friends.

Are they are slugs with mortgages?
How can something have a stomach in the middle of it's foot?
Why is it able to run across a razor blade without being hurt?

But these are just silly questions:

For this Wednesday, I'm more interested in:

Do Snails Have a Conciousness?

Usual points:
Please don't flame, it's a discussion, which means there can be multiple "right" answers.
Anyone can post, I'm not being elitist here. In fact the more people with low post-counts, the happier I'll be
Special point for this discussion, please don't bring in the Science vs. Religion point here, there's a forum for that.

 

[TimeLord]

A snail is an animal, therefore living, and thus has a conciousness

 

[Dragon_of_red]

Heh, a stomach in its foot? God does have a sense of humor!

It would have conciousness, but i think that it would run on more or an instinctive conciousness that a real learning one.

 

[DazZ.]

I'm more interested in the razor blade question. Is it because it's not heavy enough to make enough force for the blade to cut through?

OT: I think it would have a conciousness, could run tests though to see if it learns to not go on certain things because those things will hurt. Like sheep and electric fences, when you take the electric away they still don't go near, read that they teach their young to not go near as well but it was ages ago and I could have that wrong.

I think I'm confusing conciousness for intelligence, but if you poke a snail (in the eye so it coils up and looks funny) it usually turns around, so it is aware of things.

 

[cuddly_tomato]

I think they do. Just a thought like, nothing really scientific to back it up. But I think that if something lives it has some kind of consciousness, because otherwise what is the point?

 

[Cowabungaa]

A snail is an animal, therefore living, and thus has a conciousness

I wouldn't be too sure. It doesn't have any complicated neural pathways, how could it form a conciousness?

I think they do. Just a thought like, nothing really scientific to back it up. But I think that if something lives it has some kind of consciousness, because otherwise what is the point?

Who says there is a point? Which law states there must be a point? So in term, what law states something living has to have a conciousness? My cat isn't concious, obviously, as he spazzes out when seeing himself in the mirror, trying to attack this evil invader of his empire.

 

[TimeLord]

A snail is an animal, therefore living, and thus has a conciousness

I wouldn't be too sure. It doesn't have any complicated neural pathways, how could it form a conciousness?

But how can something decide where to crawl, what and when to eat. I mean yea it doesn't avoid railway lines or pavements but maybe they are just thick.

If it doesn't have a conciousness, what does it have?

 

[Cowabungaa]

But how can something decide where to crawl, what and when to eat. I mean yea it doesn't avoid railway lines or pavements but maybe they are just thick.

If it doesn't have a conciousness, what does it have?

Instinct [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instinct] of course. Every creature has instincts. We do too, not every decision we make is a concious one.

 

[Vitor Goncalves]

A lot has been talked about our little arthropod friends.

You mean gastropods (stomach-foot). Arthropods (articulated foot) are insects, centipedes, millipedes, spiders, scorpions and crustaceans.

Its hard to tell, but I guess they can think. So they can have a degree of consciousness. I would prefer thou to believe they don't as we kill them in boiling water to eat them. Most be one of the most cruel ways to kill something.

 

[Riobux]

I'd think so and I think that their entire concious is either "Foooood...." or "Oh no, I have gravel on me belly".

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

I'm more interested in the razor blade question. Is it because it's not heavy enough to make enough force for the blade to cut through?

"I watched a snail crawl along the edge of a straight razor. That's my dream, it's my nightmare. Crawling, slipping along the edge of a straight razor and surviving...."

Really interesting one this. Because of the viscous slime they permeate, and their low weight they never actually touch the blade because the slime's viscosity overcomes their gravity.

It's a similar sort of reaction to the one where your stomach recoats itself in mucous to stop the gastric acid from eating through it.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

A lot has been talked about our little arthropod friends.

You mean gastropods (stomach-foot). Arthropods (articulated foot) are insects, centipedes, millipedes, spiders, scorpions and crustaceans.

Indeed, my bad.

 

[TimeLord]

But how can something decide where to crawl, what and when to eat. I mean yea it doesn't avoid railway lines or pavements but maybe they are just thick.

If it doesn't have a conciousness, what does it have?

Instinct [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instinct] of course. Every creature has instincts. We do too, not every decision we make is a concious one.

Yea but there is unconscious to conscious instinct

 

[Abedeus]

But how can something decide where to crawl, what and when to eat. I mean yea it doesn't avoid railway lines or pavements but maybe they are just thick.

If it doesn't have a conciousness, what does it have?

Instinct [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instinct] of course. Every creature has instincts. We do too, not every decision we make is a concious one.

Yea but there is unconscious to conscious instinct

...No, sorry. Instinct and conscious thought are like day and night, black and white, hot and cold.

Instinct means you duck when someone attacks you suddenly.
Conscious means you see someone trying to swing a bat at you and you make a choice - parry, dodge or counter it. Or run like hell, although that would be more of an instinct.

 

[TimeLord]

But how can something decide where to crawl, what and when to eat. I mean yea it doesn't avoid railway lines or pavements but maybe they are just thick.

If it doesn't have a conciousness, what does it have?

Instinct [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instinct] of course. Every creature has instincts. We do too, not every decision we make is a concious one.

Yea but there is unconscious to conscious instinct

...No, sorry. Instinct and conscious thought are like day and night, black and white, hot and cold.

Instinct means you duck when someone attacks you suddenly.
Conscious means you see someone trying to swing a bat at you and you make a choice - parry, dodge or counter it. Or run like hell, although that would be more of an instinct.

http://www.humantruth.org/institr3.htm
I direct you here

 

[Cowabungaa]

http://www.humantruth.org/institr3.htm
I direct you here

Where are the sources to research, journals and experiments? I'm not seeing any on that page, so where is it's validity? Anyone can write anything down.

But to answer your other question; no, instinct by definition is automatic. There's no concious instinct. Yes, concious beings can be aware of their instincts, like we are, and train against them, but that doesn't make it a concious instinct.

 

[TimeLord]

http://www.humantruth.org/institr3.htm
I direct you here

Where are the sources to research, journals and experiments? I'm not seeing any on that page, so where is it's validity? Anyone can write anything down.

But to answer your other question; no, instinct by definition is automatic. There's no concious instinct. Yes, concious beings can be aware of their instincts, like we are, and train against them, but that doesn't make it a concious instinct.

Yes, but this is all assuming the fact that snails can only act on instinct, why cant they have a conciousness?

 

[ottenni]

Of course not. I have never had a snail express any sort of regret at ruining me precious lettuce plants.

Bastards...

 

[Abedeus]

But how can something decide where to crawl, what and when to eat. I mean yea it doesn't avoid railway lines or pavements but maybe they are just thick.

If it doesn't have a conciousness, what does it have?

Instinct [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instinct] of course. Every creature has instincts. We do too, not every decision we make is a concious one.

Yea but there is unconscious to conscious instinct

...No, sorry. Instinct and conscious thought are like day and night, black and white, hot and cold.

Instinct means you duck when someone attacks you suddenly.
Conscious means you see someone trying to swing a bat at you and you make a choice - parry, dodge or counter it. Or run like hell, although that would be more of an instinct.

http://www.humantruth.org/institr3.htm
I direct you here

Yeaaaah.

Judging by the quality of that website (hell, I could make a nicer-looking one in CSS and basic HTML in 30 minutes) and lack of any researches, I'm calling bullplap.

Don't believe everything that has "truth" in it. Usually it's just to make it look real and appealing.

Instinct is not a thinking process. You can't consciously make a 0.5 sec decision. It's just impossible, that's why it's called "reflex". Best humans have under 0.1 sec reflex time, a thought takes longer to "spark" in your head. Unless you can "say" 100 words in 1 second in your head, then I'll believe in it.

Also, this would mean that animals can think and create. Apart from Discworldian Coo-Coo Bird, no animal can create or destroy on purpose (making hives and nests is instinct of survival). Humans can and do.

 

[ironduke88]

I am a research scientist at Durham University. I colleage of mine recently performed an experiment suggesting that common garden snails (Helix aspersa) have individual personalities. That is personalities in the biological description i.e. some are lazy and are less likely to move to stimuli response and some are energetic, some are scared some are bold etc. Individuality is a kind of consciousness...

Whether they are sentient is another matter and not really solvable by modern science.

I think a more interesting subject would be whether snails have a conscience (i.e. do they feel guilty about eating your lettuce?)