RPG Combat, what do you want?

[Stewie Plisken]

I'll agree with the general sentiment here. RPG, as a genre, doesn't have a set combat system/style. It depends on the game. Some work better as party-management, turn-based games, others work better with a real-time combat system. The only style I wouldn't want is the classic MMORPG combat system in a single player game (LOOKING AT YOU, DRAGON AGE). The Witcher started off as a Baldur's Gate clone, but CDPR accurately discerned that the combat system wouldn't fit the Witcher's style that focuses, in the lore, on flashy sword-fighting. So yeah, it depends entirely on the game; just as long as it's well-done and internally consistent.

 

[Fallow]

I think anything except Skyrim works. Some things work great, like the RT style of BG or the TB style of ToEE. Some things work okay, like the turn style of XCOM or Civ/AC. The only thing that doesn't work is the impotent mixing of multiple genres like Skyrim does (not to be confused for the functional and thought out mixing that works - i.e. Borderlands).

 

[SqueezetheFlab]

I want something better than what I've had for the past 4 decades. Things really mutated from the 80's, until now. A lot of it due to technology, a lot of it due to expectations. The new VR things are awesome and I hope that they become a standard.

All of the culture of the 80's in movies was based on the expectation of games being so advanced in the 2000's that they would rival reality.

Rival reality in the context of combat would be physics.

Alternatively, the complexity could increase as with a RTS/turn-based game.

Final fantasy tactics on steroids. Yes please.

 

[bjj hero]

Pick something and go with it. I dont like real time if it is party based. Real time should be me with one guy and my reflexes. What I dont understand is when RT combat is made boring like, in my likely unpopular opinion, dark souls.

When we have fluid real time combat, like ninja gaiden down way back on the original xbox, why am I now rolling and holding block waiting for this skeleton to jump off a cliff? Batman Arkham Asylum is the best RT combat RPG in some time.

I really hate when hit% is thrown in with RT combat. Either I hot the target off my own back or I didn't. Don't tell me I missed when I saw the swing/shot land.

Turn based strategy is my favourite way to handle an RPG with a party. I really enjoyed Dragon Age Origins, Baldurs Gate, Planescape:Torment.

Although I did enjoy Mass Effect. Probably only worked because of guns though.

 

[Catnip1024]

Turn based, but whatever way I prefer better AI. I'd rather have a dozen decent, challenging encounters than infinite random spammy encounters. Dragon Age Origins was good for making you think about things (kiting aside), and the first Mass Effect on the harder settings made you use all your abilities. Whereas a lot of the time, things like the Witcher 3 are just dodge-mashing with the odd attack thrown in (and the shield ability).

I kind of wish more games went down the Advance Wars / Fire Emblem style of play, which allows for proper large-scale strategy, as opposed to telling your 2 sidekicks to take cover...

 

[Zhukov]

I want one of two things from RPG combat.

If it's going the "action RPG" route then I want the same things I want from an action game. I want responsive controls, excellent animation, a feeling of weight and impact, a decent amount of variety in the actions available to me, and at least enough challenge to keep me on my toes. In short, I want it to be immediately and viscerally satisfying.

Games that have, to varying degrees, delivered on this for me include The Last of Us, The Arkham series, (and Shadow of Mordor which had very similar combat) Mass Effect 3 and the Mirror's Edge games. If you're thinking that almost none of those are RPGs then you're correct. That's because almost no action-RPGs have ever met my standards.

If the game is going the "tactical RPG" route then I want it to be turn based or at least allow me to issue/queue commands while paused. I want it to be well balanced, so I can't just find one strategy and use it forever. I want it to be both challenging and flexible enough that I can come up with creative solutions and feel clever. I want variety in the kinds of challenges presented.

Games that have, to varying degrees, delivered on this for me include Divinity Original Sin, The Banner Saga and the new XCOM games.

I don't want floaty, weightless action where I wave a sword through an enemy and their health bar goes down a bit (Dark Souls, The Witcher series). I don't want a bad shooter with RPG elements tacked on (Fallout 3+4, Borderlands, Deus Ex Human Revolution. I don't want anything that resembles Diablo. I don't want anything that resembles WoW. I don't want games where success or failure is largely determined by stats and levels (Borderlands again). I don't want games that think challenge involves giving enemies huge amounts of health (too many fucking examples to count). I don't want to be just mindlessly mashing the attack button (Skyrim).

 

[bjj hero]

I want one of two things from RPG combat.

If it's going the "action RPG" route then I want the same things I want from an action game. I want responsive controls, excellent animation, a feeling of weight and impact, a decent amount of variety in the actions available to me, and at least enough challenge to keep me on my toes. In short, I want it to be immediately and viscerally satisfying.

Games that have, to varying degrees, delivered on this for me include The Last of Us, The Arkham series, (and Shadow of Mordor which had very similar combat) Mass Effect 3 and the Mirror's Edge games. If you're thinking that almost none of those are RPGs then you're correct. That's because almost no action-RPGs have ever met my standards.

If the game is going the "tactical RPG" route then I want it to be turn based or at least allow me to issue/queue commands while paused. I want it to be well balanced, so I can't just find one strategy and use it forever. I want it to be both challenging and flexible enough that I can come up with creative solutions and feel clever. I want variety in the kinds of challenges presented.

Games that have, to varying degrees, delivered on this for me include Divinity Original Sin, The Banner Saga and the new XCOM games.

I don't want floaty, weightless action where I wave a sword through an enemy and their health bar goes down a bit (Dark Souls, The Witcher series). I don't want a bad shooter with RPG elements tacked on (Fallout 3+4, Borderlands, Deus Ex Human Revolution. I don't want anything that resembles Diablo. I don't want anything that resembles WoW. I don't want games where success or failure is largely determined by stats and levels (Borderlands again). I don't want games that think challenge involves giving enemies huge amounts of health (too many fucking examples to count). I don't want to be just mindlessly mashing the attack button (Skyrim).

TESTIFY!

Please make my next game. Interestingly I mentioned earlier that Batman AA was the best action RPG Ive played in some time.

 

[Redryhno]

If party members are useless as anything but meat shields and pack mules you are useless
In modern "RPGs" snipers do not snipe, mages either put you in danger or can't do magic, explosives experts grenades are likewise more dangerous to you than the enemy, and assassins are just plain downright useless except maybe in finding traps. Party members are also useless in stealth. If you do not have AI that can be told to wait for you signal up in the tower and shoot enemies only if you are found, than get rid of the action game elements entirely and let me control the fucker in a turn-based game. But don't waste my time with meat shields/pack mules (Bioware and Bethesda are the most prominent examples of this problem, and Bethesda fails even at this).

Eh, I'd argue Skyrim party members are better than pack mules for the most part, especially if you gear them up.

But most of what you've said here I'm pretty much behind. ARPGs are ok, but I'm sick of them, been sick of them since before Origins came out and I'm tired of RPGs either pretending to be turn-based(Final Fantasy, console rpgs in general), or aping on true action games.

But I'd argue against all weapons always being used for different things unless you have some kind of narrative reason that lets you unlock different weapons down the line or something. There's alot of charm in signature weapons and the engagement of a player with their character and their specific weapon I think is essential if you're going to have a single-player RPG with gear swapping.

 

[Redryhno]

Real time combat, alone instead of party based. Minimal automation; I wanna play the game myself. Responsive controls and weighty but efficient animations. A small number of weapons with versatility, including temporary pickups, instead of upgradable loot that clutters your inventory. Basically, a lot of what RPG isn't.

So basically you want an action combo game?

 

[Redryhno]

Real time combat, alone instead of party based. Minimal automation; I wanna play the game myself. Responsive controls and weighty but efficient animations. A small number of weapons with versatility, including temporary pickups, instead of upgradable loot that clutters your inventory. Basically, a lot of what RPG isn't.

So basically you want an action combo game?

No, I don't like combos especially. I find chaining attacks endlessly kind of lame and superficial. I want it to be more survival/attrition and stamina based, kind of like Demon's Souls but not so basic.

Still sounds like you're asking for a combo game more than an RPG is all.

 

[bjj hero]

Make it substance over style.
Not a shitty action game with perks that add the ability to do either BASIC FUCKING THINGS or BASIC AND OUTRIGHT IDIOTIC FUCKING THINGS THAT WOULD GET YOU KILLED IN REAL LIFE. The single redeeming feature of showing off and performing combos is that you will be removed from the gene pool.

Interestingly, in combat sports the better people tend to throw combinations rather than single shots. "Punches in Bunches" if you prefer.

On to your weapons comment, I think an axe would be the best tool ever in the 1600s.

Chops heads, Splits armour like a hammer. Why cant I also use it as a really loud lock pick too? In actual real life we still use axes to break doors. If Im in someone elses dungeon then fuck keys, fuck lock picks. Where is my axe?

 

[infohippie]

Real time combat, alone instead of party based. Minimal automation; I wanna play the game myself. Responsive controls and weighty but efficient animations. A small number of weapons with versatility, including temporary pickups, instead of upgradable loot that clutters your inventory. Basically, a lot of what RPG isn't.

So you want an action game, not an RPG.

 

[09philj]

Pure turn based or pure action; any attempt to mesh the two, especially active time battle, can fuck right off. Personally I prefer turn based, but I have a soft spot for Diablo-likes as well. I also want depth without needless complexity, so creating and using a character build is intuitive but not simplistic. Bravely Default and Bravely Second are a great example of this (While Final Fantasy VI is a great representation of needless complexity without depth).

 

[Redryhno]

Pure turn based or pure action; any attempt to mesh the two, especially active time battle, can fuck right off. Personally I prefer turn based, but I have a soft spot for Diablo-likes as well. I also want depth without needless complexity, so creating and using a character build is intuitive but not simplistic. Bravely Default and Bravely Second are a great example of this (While Final Fantasy VI is a great representation of needless complexity without depth).

Yeah, real-time turns just pisses me off to no end. I get that it's supposed to be more "interactive" and add "tension", but I found that it just meant you were mashing memorized combos as fast as you could. Or the shit Transistor decided with just slowing down time. I just don't get why it got so popular. Like, what happened to the "HOLY FUCK THAT ATTACK, now do I heal or just go all out and sacrifice the guy this turn and just clean up the mooks while being down a guy since he's going to do it again next time?" strategy that happened in RPGs?

 

[Geisterkarle]

Well I'm quite open for different "styles", but there is basically "one" important thing that makes it different!

We are talking "RPG", "RP" means "role-playing". So I really want to play a role OR roles! And this "or" is important!
If I play as a single hero, like in Skyrim, Witcher, Diablo, ... I'm totally fine with real-time hack&slash or similar "button mashing style". Because I have the control and "be" the hero.
But the moment the RPG is "focused" on teams and not very temporary "sidekicks" (for example I don't care about mercenaries in Diablo), I still want to role-play ... ALL OF THEM! You still can do this real-time, for example like in "Secret of Mana" or similar games. But basically "we" have a distinction to "Action-Adventure" to a "real" RPG here. So we could start the discussion if (my example) "Secret of Mana" is a RPG!? Or even Diablo!?

Better to control everyone in a team is a turn-based system. The minimum would be something like in "Star Ocean: Second Story": You have an "action-bar" that is filling up, so you can do stuff ... but in the "downtime" you can move around the battlefield! And that is quite important if you use skills, that are doing damage in a line-of-sight or something like that! Also you can switch between all characters and give them the next "input". It can be very challenging to move all characters in the right positions and give the correct inputs, because we have real-time (if you go to menu the time "stops"). You can put them to "auto-pilot", but then they do whatever they want and if the Moon is not in the right angle to Saturn, it will not help and is plain stupid. I actually liked that back in the time!

We can debate how "deep" you should go with turn-base; if Final Fantasy(VI - is often mentioned here)-esque is ok, or we "need" something in the direction of Baldur's Gate and cohorts... I think it is up to personal experience and likeing.

But definitely the WORST is the other way round: putting you into a team and you can't control anyone but "yourself"! What is this? Why are the others actually there? That is not role-playing for me!

 

[bartholen_v1legacy]

Best turn-based RPG combat IMO: Final Fantasy X.
Best real-time RPG combat IMO: the Dark Souls trilogy.

Things I want:

- clear indication of who is going to strike next
- Critical hits from enemies being a thing that makes you go "oh shit" instead of "well, that's that battle over then". Looking at you, Darkest Dungeon and Fire Emblem
- RNG can be a factor, but there should be some limit to which it can go to extremes. I don't want a game where enemies will inflict 0 critical hits in one fight, and 20 in another. 6-16 would be preferable.
- the ability to pause the game at any time
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