RTS AI needs improvement.

Recommended Videos

Credge

New member
Apr 12, 2008
1,042
0
0
I'm getting a bit bored of RTS. I don't like to play online because everyone meta-games it to death in ranked matches and anything that isn't a ranked match is always some "NO RUSH FOR 18,000 HOURS" crap that does not appeal to me. I mainly play against the AI's because of this. I used to get tons of thrills from playing against the AI, but not so much anymore. Allow me to explain the downfalls of AI in RTS games.

1. Higher difficulties usually means the AI begins to cheat. In Warcraft 3, there is no difference in how the AI plays from normal to hard. The difference is that the AI's units only cost 1 gold each. Don't believe me? Go play against a hard AI, record the demo, and watch his gold reserves. 1 gold is it.

This is a huge let down for me. I don't feel that my victory was worth while after I beat an AI that cheats. It's just not very fun for me. It's like playing against a your four year old brother.

2. AI is generally bad. I haven't seen any improvement to any RTS AI I've played against since about 2002. They all use the same tactics that don't work, or simply don't perform worth a damn. I still see AI use the same tactics they have been using since I started playing RTS way back when WC2 came out. Of course there have been improvements, but it really is not enough.

This is the biggest problem I have with RTS. The AI's just can't keep up with me, even when they cheat. I often find myself handicapping myself against a cheating AI. Give me a challenge, please.

Some simple things that I think would really improve the AI RTS that AI in other games (Gal Civ 2 as an example) already utilize.

1. Adapt to your strategies over time. If I'm building wonders in Rise of Nations a lot, the AI should be rushing me with his units. If I'm spamming machine guns in Company of Heroes, build mortars or tech up to tier 3 for light vehicles.

2. Be more consistent. Sometimes the enemy will put up a decent fight, sometimes they'll not do much of anything. What gives? It's not like the enemy is trying to adapt to me, it's just performing better sometimes than others.

3. Use the map better. This is especially important in RTS like Company of Heroes where using the map is incredibly important. I've only seen the AI accidentally use choke points. I know they were accidents because it was simply where our units met and not where it decided to place them.

4. Develop a personality. I think this would go a long way in making the AI worthwhile. Having multiple AI's all with different names and play styles all that adapt after playing with you would be the best approach to keeping things interesting and new. Having them say things to you a-la AOE3, except more intelligently, would be great.

There's only so much RTS I can play anymore. As a result I've been playing more 4X style games where the AI is 'better'. I really, really wish the AI's in these games weren't bad.

Can anyone recommend me an RTS where the AI isn't trashy?
 

bubbaroark0451

New member
Aug 13, 2008
132
0
0
In Civ4 the AI is difficult to beat and they don't get incumbent bonuses unless you set their level to below noble.
 

Credge

New member
Apr 12, 2008
1,042
0
0
bubbaroark0451 post=9.70287.686613 said:
In Civ4 the AI is difficult to beat and they don't get incumbent bonuses unless you set their level to below noble.
The thing about Civ is that it isn't an RTS. I've also been playing Civ 4 for a good year or so now and playing on Monarch is starting to become easy, but that's because I meta-game the shit out of it.

I recently found Gal Civ 2 which is great as a 4X as the AI adapts to you, but it's not RTSy. Sins was good, but the AI suffered from the same problems that most RTS AIs suffer from. Sins also has this bad tendency to last ungodly amounts of hours on anything larger than a tiny map setting.
 

Credge

New member
Apr 12, 2008
1,042
0
0
shatnershaman post=9.70287.686652 said:
Play Supreme Commander (Even more challenging if you get the 360 version)
Yeah, the AI was brain-dead in SupCom. Has a patch made the AI something that is smarter than a brick? I don't own a 360, but the only way I could see the console game being more difficult would be the limitations of using a controller.
 

shatnershaman

New member
May 8, 2008
2,627
0
0
Credge post=9.70287.686663 said:
shatnershaman post=9.70287.686652 said:
Play Supreme Commander (Even more challenging if you get the 360 version)
Yeah, the AI was brain-dead in SupCom. Has a patch made the AI something that is smarter than a brick? I don't own a 360, but the only way I could see the console game being more difficult would be the limitations of using a controller.
Brain-Dead? You scare me. (And Framerate issues fun fun fun)
 

Zemalac

New member
Apr 22, 2008
1,253
0
0
The AI in the latest Command & COnquer games is pretty decent. At least they know how to use combined arms and garrisoned infantry. They still don't have anything on an actual human player, though.
 

meatloaf231

Old Man Glenn
Feb 13, 2008
2,248
0
0
Well the only problem I have with RTS AI is that it cheats. It gets infinite resources. If the developers wanted to make the game harder, make it smarter, not cheat.
 

varulfic

New member
Jul 12, 2008
977
0
0
Credge post=9.70287.686589 said:
1. Higher difficulties usually means the AI begins to cheat. In Warcraft 3, there is no difference in how the AI plays from normal to hard. The difference is that the AI's units only cost 1 gold each. Don't believe me? Go play against a hard AI, record the demo, and watch his gold reserves. 1 gold is it.
You should try AMAI. [http://users.ecs.soton.ac.uk/lph105/AMAI/?page=info]

Overall, AI needs improvements in pretty much every genre. Sad fact is we're simply not there yet. I'd like to think developers are improving though.
 

Credge

New member
Apr 12, 2008
1,042
0
0
shatnershaman post=9.70287.686677 said:
Brain-Dead? You scare me. (And Framerate issues fun fun fun)
? The AI in supcom doesn't do much of anything very well. You just set up your hex's early and expand upon them every now and then and your economy is larger than what they could ever hope to get. Unless a patch or the expansion made them harder, it wasn't much of a challenge.

Zemalac post=9.70287.686682 said:
The AI in the latest Command & COnquer games is pretty decent. At least they know how to use combined arms and garrisoned infantry. They still don't have anything on an actual human player, though.
I didn't like C&C3. It had too much tank spam and not enough actual strategy. Wasn't my cup of tea. I didn't find the AI to be much of anything special. It's easy to beat combined arms by massing one kind of unit. I don't think I ever had an AI mass a counter to a unit I massed.

varulfic post=9.70287.686716 said:
You should try AMAI. [http://users.ecs.soton.ac.uk/lph105/AMAI/?page=info]

Overall, AI needs improvements in pretty much every genre. Sad fact is we're simply not there yet. I'd like to think developers are improving though.
That's what I was looking for! I'll give it a spin.
 

DeadlyFred

New member
Aug 13, 2008
305
0
0
The Dawn of Skirmish mod team managed to not only make Dawn of War's AI no longer suck but turned it into probably the best AI I've ever seen in an RTS, hands down. And I mean best as in "it actually beats you" not "it cheats". No clue what it took to do it, as its only a mod (no changes to source code/etc, but they managed. It can be done.
 

ElArabDeMagnifico

New member
Dec 20, 2007
3,775
0
0
meatloaf231 post=9.70287.686704 said:
Well the only problem I have with RTS AI is that it cheats. It gets infinite resources. If the developers wanted to make the game harder, make it smarter, not cheat.
I heard from Khell_Sennet that the AI in Company of Heroes cheats, but that doesn't seem to be the case for me, they are much quicker because a computer can issue commands faster than I can, but if I cut off their resources, they are out, the units die as fast as mine, etc.

I think the AI in Total War's campaign cheats...sure as hell felt like it first playthrough.

Honestly I don't know of much cheating AI except Far Cry on "Realistic" and in Racing Games.


DeadlyFred post=9.70287.687346 said:
The Dawn of Skirmish mod team managed to not only make Dawn of War's AI no longer suck but turned it into probably the best AI I've ever seen in an RTS, hands down. And I mean best as in "it actually beats you" not "it cheats". No clue what it took to do it, as its only a mod (no changes to source code/etc, but they managed. It can be done.
Is it called "Dawn of Skirmish"? Cuz after hearing this I'm heading to filefront.
 

DeadlyFred

New member
Aug 13, 2008
305
0
0
Yeah or "The Dawn of Skirmish AI Project", whatever you wanna call it. Its great fun though still not exactly human. Far better than the included AI which is pretty much null and effing void. Very small download as well though it is so highly praised by the DoW community that it is included in the download package of most DoW mods.
 

Aries_Split

New member
May 12, 2008
2,097
0
0
Sins is awesome if you have no life.

I'm not kidding, the shortest match of that game I've played was about 3 hours.
 

kinch

New member
Jun 16, 2008
140
0
0
It's very easy for people such as yourselves to sit on your high horses and say "AI is dumb! I want a challenge! Make it better!". It's about a trillion times harder to actually do something about it. I know a little bit of programming, not enough to do games, or anything serious, just very small custom apps for a simple task (processing logfiles for example).

You have no idea how difficult programming AI is. In fact, it's not even AI. AI indicates "intelligence" which indicates the ability to learn and react. Games do not possess this. Games have a bunch of rules. I want all you complainers to come up with a list of rules that will give you the challenge you want. They have to follow one after the other, and you can include IF statements. They don't have to be code, make them psuedo-code:

IF Player is Human
THEN choose Orc
ELSE choose Human

Tell me what rules you can make that will give you an AI that learns from your gameplay style, and analyse the map (how does a computer determine a choke point?), and can adapt to a constantly changing situation.

I agree AI that cheats isn't really fair. I can't even beat a computer enemy on the easy levels of any strategy game, so clearly you complainers are vastly superior at RTS games. But at the end of the day, you're asking for the practically impossible. And you're bitching about it.