San Jose Passes Gun Law, Requires Liability Insurance for Handguns

thebobmaster

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Basically, gun owners in San Jose will now need to buy liability insurance for handguns, which will cover losses or damages from any accidental use of a firearm, including injury or death. In addition, should a gun be stolen or lost, the owner will be legally liable for that handgun until reported to the police. Finally, there will be a $25 fee for the insurance, which will be collected by a non-profit to be distributed to community centers for use in suicide prevention, firearms training and safety education, domestic violence, and mental health services.


I'm not sure this will hold up to lawsuits, because we just can't be bothered to do anything that could possibly reduce the number of firearm injuries/deaths other than thoughts and prayers, but this is a bit of a different way. People talk about how you need a license to drive a car...so why not require insurance to own a gun?
 
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Bob_McMillan

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I say this as a non-American and who honestly has no clue what gun regulations are in his own country, but... this sounds like something that should have already existed. Are they taking inspiration from another country or something?
 
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Phoenixmgs

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The law seems basically pointless because it does not require gun owners to do anything but pay a $25 fee it seems because...

"However, gun owners who don't have insurance won't lose their guns or face any criminal charges, the mayor said."

And I don't even know how you get gun owners to pay the $25 fee (unless it's at the time of purchase) or get insurance because it's not like there's a registry of gun owners. So this would be going off of the honor system and you can just say you don't own a gun if it's asked on some tax form or what have you.

I'm not really pro-gun or anti-gun as I'm pretty indifferent on guns, I don't think I'd ever buy a gun but I also don't look down on those that do have guns. I don't think you can ever ban guns because there are legit uses (at least until there's nonlethal guns as effective as normal guns) and because of the 2nd amendment as well obviously. The fact that there's so many guns in the country and no gun registry, it would be damn near impossible to fix the gun issue via policy. Polices that increase social safety nets and wealth inequality will do far more than any gun control law as the more desperate someone is, the more likely they'll commit violent crime.
 

Eacaraxe

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Basically, gun owners in San Jose will now need to buy liability insurance for handguns, which will cover losses or damages from any accidental use of a firearm, including injury or death. In addition, should a gun be stolen or lost, the owner will be legally liable for that handgun until reported to the police. Finally, there will be a $25 fee for the insurance, which will be collected by a non-profit to be distributed to community centers for use in suicide prevention, firearms training and safety education, domestic violence, and mental health services.


I'm not sure this will hold up to lawsuits, because we just can't be bothered to do anything that could possibly reduce the number of firearm injuries/deaths other than thoughts and prayers, but this is a bit of a different way. People talk about how you need a license to drive a car...so why not require insurance to own a gun?
Well, car ownership isn't an enumerated right in the second amendment to the US Constitution, for one thing. In a circumstance in which all things are held equal, this won't pass constitutional muster as it isn't the least-restrictive means to achieve a compelling state interest -- since we're discussing an enumerated right, strict scrutiny automatically applies.

The problem is, all things are not held equal. Let me explain what's really going on here. Somebody's looking for a state or federal legislature bid, and they're after campaign funding from the insurance industry. Ordinance like this is judicially DOA, and anybody who's worked a campaign, worked on a legislator's staff, worked for a party, or worked in government in a non-partisan position can tell you this without really putting much thought into it. And because it's judicially DOA, it's an absolute waste of time when it comes to substantive policy, and the people who wrote and passed this know it.

In other words, it's not intended to be substantive policy. It's performance; it's intended to be passed, and summarily overruled by the courts. Thereby, generating press and giving involved legislators opportunity for stump speeches and campaign ad fodder. Where "insurance" comes in, is of course, because the insurance industry loves giving money to legislators and election candidates to ensure its profit margins keep growing.

This is where the comparison to car insurance rears its ugly head. Insurance is mandatory to drive, and that's well and good...except for one thing. How many "high risk" and "liability only" insurance companies exist, for the sole purpose of providing cheap proof-of-insurance, but their policies don't actually cover much or are so disclaimer- and exception-riddled they rarely if ever pay out? What guarantee would there be, for that to not be the case for gun insurance?

It's a quick buck for established insurance companies, and a foot-in-the-door for scam insurers. Hence, why the insurance industry would want to pour money into the coffers of candidates who try to pass dumbass shit like this. The performance signals to insurance lobbyists they're open for business, pushing industry-friendly legislation.

Last...you think insurance fraud is already bad? Wait until the kind of moron it takes to treat firearms irresponsibly in the first place, realizes "unfortunate hunting accident = payday".
 

evilneko

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And I don't even know how you get gun owners to pay the $25 fee (unless it's at the time of purchase) or get insurance because it's not like there's a registry of gun owners. So this would be going off of the honor system and you can just say you don't own a gun if it's asked on some tax form or what have you.
I imagine it would be much the same as with cars. No one's checking your license and insurance every time you turn the key, but get caught doing something wrong or cause an accident and you'll be in a lot bigger trouble if you're found lacking.

I haven't even read the fine article yet (I'm allegedly working, haha) but at first blush I think it's a decent idea. However it sounds like it needs some teeth. I'm all for the idea of making it easier to lose your firearm(s) if you do something stupid with them.

Might have to make a note to look more into this later. Also, I kind of wonder what farson would've thought about this, but doesn't look like he's around anymore.
 

Seanchaidh

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Making something more expensive just means that poor people can't have it as easily. Since it's insurance,people who have a claim made against their insurance for whatever reason also will have much larger costs for owning a (legal) firearm. Which might be fair enough, I guess. But again: if you're rich enough, you can for all practical purposes just ignore it.
 

Schadrach

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Insurance is mandatory to drive,
Unless you're rich. In some states you can "self-insure", basically keeping the amount insurance would cover set aside in a special fund, and carrying proof you have done so instead of proof of insurance.

What I keep waiting for is somewhere very blue to pass a law that outright bans all firearms except by police and similar, but uses the enforcement mechanism from Texas SB 8. A law intentionally designed to fail, but designed to fail in a way that sets precedent and is instructive as to how to attack laws like SB 8.
 

Gergar12

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As someone who has an uneasy relationship with the political status of guns in America, I don't think this will pass the conservative SCOTUS. They will find some random avenue of attack on how this law unconstitutional like they did with the abortion case, and they will use it to defect away responsibility and lower the amount of backlash to them.
 

Phoenixmgs

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I imagine it would be much the same as with cars. No one's checking your license and insurance every time you turn the key, but get caught doing something wrong or cause an accident and you'll be in a lot bigger trouble if you're found lacking.

I haven't even read the fine article yet (I'm allegedly working, haha) but at first blush I think it's a decent idea. However it sounds like it needs some teeth. I'm all for the idea of making it easier to lose your firearm(s) if you do something stupid with them.

Might have to make a note to look more into this later. Also, I kind of wonder what farson would've thought about this, but doesn't look like he's around anymore.
I quoted a line from the article that nothing happens to you if you don't have gun insurance. There's a registry of cars whereas there isn't a registry of guns so unless you're implementing this at the sale of guns, nobody else has to abide by this law. Then a one-time fee at purchase is hardly "insurance" because once you own the gun, you'd never have to pay the fee again because there's no gun registry.
 

evilneko

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There doesn't necessarily have to be a gun registry. A person in possession of a gun does a stupid, gets caught, can't show proof of insurance, gets added penalties piled on top of whatever else they're facing. Doesn't matter if it's their gun or not. Much like it does not matter if I own the car I'm driving when I'm pulled over, I've got to have something showing that I am insured. The law passed by San Jose doesn't have much for teeth, but IMO it would be improved by having very sharp teeth.

On the other hand, if a person in possession of a gun does a stupid and gets caught but does have insurance, then he still faces the penalty for the stupid but is also going to hear from his insurance company.

That said, I think I have changed my mind on the idea of insurance. While it might be a benefit in case of an honest accident--the payout could help the victim's medical bills--I think overall it would be of limited utility. At the same time it'd create a whole new class of insurance battles and profiteers which the world definitely doesn't need. It would be better to increase enforcement of, and penalties for, existing gun laws so that irresponsible users feel more pain.
 

Gordon_4

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I quoted a line from the article that nothing happens to you if you don't have gun insurance. There's a registry of cars whereas there isn't a registry of guns so unless you're implementing this at the sale of guns, nobody else has to abide by this law. Then a one-time fee at purchase is hardly "insurance" because once you own the gun, you'd never have to pay the fee again because there's no gun registry.
If implemented at point of sale, there will be an insurance database which contains all the same information as a theoretical firearms registry would possess.
 

Phoenixmgs

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If implemented at point of sale, there will be an insurance database which contains all the same information as a theoretical firearms registry would possess.
You have to make a unified database for that to work. Plus, you have methods of selling guns already that would bypass a hypothetical database like this anyway because you can buy guns without an ID.
 

Gordon_4

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You have to make a unified database for that to work.
Same as car insurance, hardly an impossible task. And since it doesn't mention any particular Insurance brokers (that I saw) I would assume the insurer is the State of California. So, yeah, not hard.

Plus, you have methods of selling guns already that would bypass a hypothetical database like this anyway because you can buy guns without an ID.
A fact I find baffling but also a fair point.
 
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Phoenixmgs

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Same as car insurance, hardly an impossible task. And since it doesn't mention any particular Insurance brokers (that I saw) I would assume the insurer is the State of California. So, yeah, not hard.

A fact I find baffling but also a fair point.
It said the insurance was run by some non-profit IIRC. I feel like car insurance works due to a unified car registry not run by insurance companies. I also feel like you can help much more in reducing crime by putting money towards programs that make desperate people less desperate. I think we are well past making new guns laws to reduce gun violence just like drug laws aren't gonna reduce drug use.
 

Ag3ma

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Thanks for sharing this news about San Jose's new gun law! It's definitely an interesting approach to try to address the issue of firearm injuries and deaths. I totally get what you mean about the potential for lawsuits, but I think it's important to at least try something new to tackle the problem. For anyone interested in individual health insurance in Portland, Oregon, -LINK REMOVED - MOD- has some resources on their website that could be helpful. They offer information on different health coverage options and can help you find a plan that works for you.
And no thank you for necroing threads with marketing gabble.
 

CM156

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And no thank you for necroing threads with marketing gabble.
Honestly, if someone is going to necro the thread, it should be to point out that this case is currently being litigated. If the city ever attempts actual enforcement (rather than now which is on a sort of honors system), they will likely face more litigation.