Seinfield: was there anything wrong with that?

[lechat]

In keeping with my need to make relevant current interest threads probing the depths of pop culture I figured it was time to address the elephant that was in the room 20 years ago.

So for those of us who watched sienfield back in the day and remember the reference "not that there's anything wrong with that", putting aside your own personal preferences and morals or whatever, do you feel there was anything wrong with that from the perspective of the actors in character?
Me personally i think there was, not in a 'We should string em all up and dance on their graves' sort of way but more in a 'Yeah dave is cool but he's one of those weirdos that like other dudes but i won't be the first one to point out what a fruitcake he is' kinda deal.


thoughts?

 

[KissingSunlight]

You have half of the quote there. The first part of the quote is "I'm not gay..." What made the quote funny is the assumption of denying you are homosexual makes you a homophobic. When all these characters were doing was just affirming their sexual orientation. The 90's was a different time. People were really quick with political correctness to condemn you for misspeaking about social issues. Not like today, where we are all relaxed and understanding whenever anyone misspeak in public.

 

[Casual Shinji]

It's the characters, in this case Jerry and George, not wanting to be confused for being gay while at the same not wanting to come across as homophobic. The humor is found in them being uncomfortable with their own hetero sexuality when confronted with a gay situation. They're just those types of guys and the writing pooks fun at them because of it. Like when Elaine says 'You know, just admitting a man looks attractive doesn't automatically make you gay', to which George replies'... It doesn't help.' Or like when George gets a massage from a man and is all freaked out that "it moved", or when he dates a woman that he suddenly realizes looks a lot like Jerry. Or Jerry dating a woman with man hands.

 

[Buffoon1980]

I don't quite get the question I think... are you asking if the characters in Seinfeld actually did see something wrong with being gay? If that's the question, then yeah, they kind of did. Not because they had any particular objection to homosexuality, but because they were so shallow that they had a hard time dealing with anything that wasn't neatly contained within the well-established societal norms that basically ruled their lives. That's partly why it's such a clever episode (and show in general): it was a well-crafted satire on how some peoples' ideas and views of the world are so shallow that they're incapable of thinking deeply about any issue, but will obsess about superficialities.

 

[lechat]

You have half of the quote there. The first part of the quote is "I'm not gay..." What made the quote funny is the assumption of denying you are homosexual makes you a homophobic. When all these characters were doing was just affirming their sexual orientation. The 90's was a different time. People were really quick with political correctness to condemn you for misspeaking about social issues. Not like today, where we are all relaxed and understanding whenever anyone misspeak in public.

I think you part way got to the question I am trying to get too.
On one hand you have a couple of guys freaking out that someone might think they are gay but then quickly adding that there isn't anything wrong with it.
If you are that concerned that someone might think you are gay then surely there is "something wrong with that"

I should probably add that it's been about ten years since i seen the episode so I may be remembering it wrong.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

"Not that there's anything wrong with it" sounds like the kind of catch-all PC disclaimer someone like Jerry and George would use.

 

[KissingSunlight]

You have half of the quote there. The first part of the quote is "I'm not gay..." What made the quote funny is the assumption of denying you are homosexual makes you a homophobic. When all these characters were doing was just affirming their sexual orientation. The 90's was a different time. People were really quick with political correctness to condemn you for misspeaking about social issues. Not like today, where we are all relaxed and understanding whenever anyone misspeak in public.

I think you part way got to the question I am trying to get too.
On one hand you have a couple of guys freaking out that someone might think they are gay but then quickly adding that there isn't anything wrong with it.
If you are that concerned that someone might think you are gay then surely there is "something wrong with that"

I should probably add that it's been about ten years since i seen the episode so I may be remembering it wrong.

I'll be honest. It's been a while since I've seen that episode too. I do remember Jerry and George was over-compensating about being heterosexual. If I remember, there was a reporter from a college newspaper that was interviewing Jerry. She thought that Jerry and George was a gay couple.

 

[happyninja42]

You have half of the quote there. The first part of the quote is "I'm not gay..." What made the quote funny is the assumption of denying you are homosexual makes you a homophobic. When all these characters were doing was just affirming their sexual orientation. The 90's was a different time. People were really quick with political correctness to condemn you for misspeaking about social issues. Not like today, where we are all relaxed and understanding whenever anyone misspeak in public.

I think you part way got to the question I am trying to get too.
On one hand you have a couple of guys freaking out that someone might think they are gay but then quickly adding that there isn't anything wrong with it.
If you are that concerned that someone might think you are gay then surely there is "something wrong with that"

I should probably add that it's been about ten years since i seen the episode so I may be remembering it wrong.

I think the punchline is simply based around the preconception that "All straight guys hate/are afraid of homosexuals" And thus, if they are in a situation where they feel the need to declare "I'm straight", they probably assume someone is going to think they're homophobic. So they counter that assumption with the disclaimer about there being nothing wrong with it.

It makes sense to me, as I live in the South, where it's not as easy to be openly pro-gay without having people look at you weird. Some places are better than others, but I have heard at least a dozen times, some random dumbass say out loud "It's Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve." That's not just a joke phrase, people actually say it, and I've heard it.

I've had to use the "not that there's anything wrong with that" myself actually, when I had a couple gay guys ask me out. In their mindset, the fact that I was ok with their orientation, automatically meant I had to be gay, because to them, straight guys just didn't accept them. And when I said "sorry man, I'm straight", they started to freak out about the mistake, and I had to calm the situation with a generic statement of "it's cool though, I'm not offended by you asking me or anything, I just don't swing that way." And they were genuinely stunned by that statement, and the fact I was still sitting with them at a social situation. They were like "oh...um, ok then." And then we went back to talking like regular people.

So I get the mindset of why a disclaimer of "not that there's anything wrong with that" would be needed in the American culture, as I've seen it in action.

Still wasn't funny with Seinfeld, because that show sucked.

 

[Zen Bard]

I think you guys are missing the point. The joke was a double jab at both political correctness and homophobia.

It took a shot at the PC world of the nineties because literally every time George and Jerry expressed their concern about being mistaken for a gay couple, they followed it up with "not that there's anything wrong with that." It suggests that you can't express a potentially controversial opinion without some kind of safety net.

At the same time, it mocked homophobia since George and Jerry are effectively saying "hey, there's nothing wrong with it...as long as it's not applied to me."

For a "show about nothing", it was actually pretty clever in that way.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

You have half of the quote there. The first part of the quote is "I'm not gay..." What made the quote funny is the assumption of denying you are homosexual makes you a homophobic. When all these characters were doing was just affirming their sexual orientation. The 90's was a different time. People were really quick with political correctness to condemn you for misspeaking about social issues. Not like today, where we are all relaxed and understanding whenever anyone misspeak in public.

I think you part way got to the question I am trying to get too.
On one hand you have a couple of guys freaking out that someone might think they are gay but then quickly adding that there isn't anything wrong with it.
If you are that concerned that someone might think you are gay then surely there is "something wrong with that"

I should probably add that it's been about ten years since i seen the episode so I may be remembering it wrong.

I am not sure that there was anything wrong with that, they didn't want people to think they were a couple due to the way that George and Jerry bickered and got along like a couple would and the show itself was based on peoples tendencies to make assumptions. People making assumptions was a huge part of the show, much of the show was assumptions from examining human behavior and awkward situations.. so the way George and Jerry acted like an old married couple would make people assume they were an " item", Both Jerry and George wanting to attract women instead of being presumed to be a couple, would want to make sure people understood they were not together, but wanted to make sure they were not behaving in a non PC manner, by pointing out that they happen to not be gay. They intentionally added over correction of Political correctness to increase the awkwardness of the situation since that is what the shows focus was. They added excess awkwardness to most situations, not just this one, so I do not think it was inappropriate given the way situations were presented in the show.

I ALSO remember an episode where Jerry was offended that the sales guy didn't think he and Elaine were a couple ( even though she was his ex), but he was taking it as being offensive to assume that he couldn't be dating her and the guy was " showing him up " by flirting with her in front of him. The show plays much on assumptions and how people react to them in awkward ways, so I would think that would fit right in with their narrative. They didn't just act awkward about people thinking they were gay, they acted awkward about everything from dating the nudist girlfriend , Elaine trying to figure out what race the guy she was dating was to people mistaking Elaine as being presumed to be dating George or Jerry at different times.

Taken out of context, one might get the idea that they were overly focusing on "Gay being okay" when that was not necessary to point out, however given the show itself and how it intentionally made awkward situations even more awkward regardless of it being gay, hetero, race related, boob job.. they did this with all situations not just this one intentionally to increase the awkwardness, so it was inline with the show itself.

 

[Qizx]

I don't quite get the question I think... are you asking if the characters in Seinfeld actually did see something wrong with being gay? If that's the question, then yeah, they kind of did. Not because they had any particular objection to homosexuality, but because they were so shallow that they had a hard time dealing with anything that wasn't neatly contained within the well-established societal norms that basically ruled their lives. That's partly why it's such a clever episode (and show in general): it was a well-crafted satire on how some peoples' ideas and views of the world are so shallow that they're incapable of thinking deeply about any issue, but will obsess about superficialities.

Wut?
Sorry but where do you get the idea that they did see something wrong with being gay? They saw something wrong with people THINKING they were gay when they aren't.

OT: I still don't know exactly what your questions is, but it seems like you're asking if that episode was not PC?

If you are that concerned that someone might think you are gay then surely there is "something wrong with that"

I would deny that notion. I don't want people thinking I'm French, even though there's nothing wrong with French people. I don't want people thinking my favorite color is orange, nothing wrong with people who's favorite color is orange.
People don't like having things ascribed to them that they don't believe/aren't.

 

[Politrukk]

No there was nothing wrong with that.
And even if there was, it was a product of its time.

I don't quite get the dredging up of old shows just to be standing there in wait with the accusatory look trying to find something wrong with it all.

I mean hell if you're going to dredge something up in that sense why hasn't anyone dredged up mammy two shoes?


TLR
I sort of find your question irrelevant, whether they intended harm or good with the joke back then doesn't really matter anymore in the context of society today.

 

[ObsidianJones_v1legacy]

At the time, there were very few gay role models on tv that were gay and what was considered manly.

Jerry and George (especially George) spent a lot of episodes trying to prove their manliness. Remember Jerry trying to prove he won the race? Remember George pushing people out of the way in a fire? Even in the 'Sensitive 90's', Jerry and George stood out as examples of no where near manliness.

They were insecure, always ready to prove themselves to people who shouldn't really matter, and frightened that their perceived male power would be constantly challenged. So, back to my first point, where being gay was 'unmanly', of course they would think something is wrong with it... while not really thinking anything is wrong with it. They have no problem with gays, but they have the problem with being considered gay and less of a man once again. George was frothing at the bit trying to prove that he was a man and offered to have sex with the reporter right there to prove he was straight and a man.

So if one considers abnormal fear of being misconstrued as something one would consider demeaning or harmful to their reputation to be 'something wrong with that', then yes... there was something wrong with that.

captcha: I see.

Damn you sentient bastard. I know you're coming for me.

 

[MajorTomServo]

They're just saying that they don't want to be identified as something they're not. And then they literally say that there's nothing wrong with it if you are.

I know the internet likes to diligently search for things to be upset about, but this is quite the stretch.

 

[jamail77]

So I get the mindset of why a disclaimer of "not that there's anything wrong with that" would be needed in the American culture, as I've seen it in action.

Still wasn't funny with Seinfeld, because that show sucked.

Excuse the upcoming rant, but finally I found someone else who didn't care for Seinfeld. Yes. This is what was wrong with that. To me, it was just stupid. People always say the show was remarkably clever and witty (or at least remarkably on point) to have these sort of jokes in what was otherwise, as someone else here described it, "a show about nothing". I don't. The show was so bare in its focus on the mundane routine of everyday life through the lens of such self absorbed people. I might sound pretentious, but it's not like I think something needs to be overly intellectual or overly insightful or overly complex to be good. I got what it was going for and I just find no merit in such things. To be honest, I just don't care for the format of a majority of sitcoms. The things I always find most funny tend to come out of everything BUT that genre interestingly.

 

[Buffoon1980]

I don't quite get the question I think... are you asking if the characters in Seinfeld actually did see something wrong with being gay? If that's the question, then yeah, they kind of did. Not because they had any particular objection to homosexuality, but because they were so shallow that they had a hard time dealing with anything that wasn't neatly contained within the well-established societal norms that basically ruled their lives. That's partly why it's such a clever episode (and show in general): it was a well-crafted satire on how some peoples' ideas and views of the world are so shallow that they're incapable of thinking deeply about any issue, but will obsess about superficialities.

Wut?
Sorry but where do you get the idea that they did see something wrong with being gay? They saw something wrong with people THINKING they were gay when they aren't.

OT: I still don't know exactly what your questions is, but it seems like you're asking if that episode was not PC?

If you are that concerned that someone might think you are gay then surely there is "something wrong with that"

I would deny that notion. I don't want people thinking I'm French, even though there's nothing wrong with French people. I don't want people thinking my favorite color is orange, nothing wrong with people who's favorite color is orange.
People don't like having things ascribed to them that they don't believe/aren't.

Well, as lechat suggested, their concern with not being thought to be gay, or at least the extent of that concern, does indicate that they saw something implicitly wrong with it. You might not want people thinking you're French, but would you experience the abject panic that George feels in that episode, if someone got the impression you were French? Would you feel uncomfortable going to see a production of Les Miserables, in the same way Jerry feels about seeing Guys and Dolls? It's unlikely.

I think you guys are missing the point. The joke was a double jab at both political correctness and homophobia.

It took a shot at the PC world of the nineties because literally every time George and Jerry expressed their concern about being mistaken for a gay couple, they followed it up with "not that there's anything wrong with that." It suggests that you can't express a potentially controversial opinion without some kind of safety net.

At the same time, it mocked homophobia since George and Jerry are effectively saying "hey, there's nothing wrong with it...as long as it's not applied to me."

For a "show about nothing", it was actually pretty clever in that way.

This is a good way of putting it, I'd say.

 

[lechat]

damn looks like tvtropes thinks there is something wrong with that.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NotThatTheresAnythingWrongWithThat

I still detect a slight hint of homophobia in that clip Not that there was anything wrong with that at the time obviously.

 

[The Madman]

Huh?

Jeez, kinda a stretch bringing Seinfield of all things up, a show that intentionally liked to dance on the brink of what was appropriate or not and consistently made a joke of that. It's just a jab at political correctness, that's all. A light hearted one at that. I'm sure there are far more modern and relevant things to discuss than a show from decades ago.

...not that there's anything wrong with that.

 

[spartenX]

I really think you're reading too much into a running gag the writers threw in because they were worried that they were coming across as homophobic.