Let me just say that I am enjoying this discussion quite a lot, it's nice to talk to someone who isn't a raving Bethesda fanboy and actually supports their claims.
War Penguin said:
Mothership Zeta? Okay, look, I'm not going to talk about any DLC in Fallout 3 or New Vegas, I'm talking about the base game. Just thought I'd get that out of the way because in another argument you made, there were DLC characters, but we'll cross that bridge when we get there.
Again, I'm afraid I'm a little lost on what you're trying to say. Are you saying that Wild Wasteland in New Vegas denounces the events of Mothership Zeta in Fallout 3? I need a little more clarification before I can continue with this argument.
Okay I don't want to go into DLC too much either but basically; Aliens were not canon in F1/2, F3 made them canon, Wild Wasteland retconned that by making them only appear with WW (J. E. Sawyer said that WW was not canon).
How am I being condescending? I'm not denying that you've played through Fallout 3 and did research. Otherwise, if I thought you didn't, I wouldn't have bothered to have this discussion with you. But that's not the point, back to the main discussion.
Fair enough, one of your statements just seemed that way, never mind.
And maybe I did pick a bad example; You did bring the quest into an interesting light for me, but I still didn't think it was as properly executed as it was in "Those." "Those" was in it's own little world that didn't require the support of the main story. "Can You Find it in Your Heart" needed that support, which I thought crippled it in story telling. In "Those," a boy needs some help because of fire breathing ants which were made by a crazy scientist. That's all you needed. It was all told in a neat little story. In "Can You Find it in Your Heart," it required much more back story that wasn't as tight as it was in "Those." I guess you could make the argument that it give the sense that much more connected, therefore alive. And you know what? I'd be fine with that answer. But to me, the story wasn't as nicely and clearly told as it did in "Those."
Yes that's true but that's the thing, you can't just take everything by face value you have to look at the grand picture, then if you do you will see why "Can You Find it in Your Heart" is more interesting than you first thought. Don't get me wrong I'm not necessarily saying "Those!" was a
bad quest, just that it really didn't do anything to support the Fallout world, but enough about giant ants.
Chief Hanlon? The guy who made false field reports? Okay, I agree, he was interesting to talk to, but he was gone ten minutes after I first met him [small](by gone I mean... well, bang)[/small].
He still had a lot of information to give though. He is one of the best sources of information for why the NCR are not as good as everyone thinks. He gives you a lot of backstory about the First Battle of Hoover Dam and also gives his opinion on the current major NCR leaders. He also talks about how the rangers and NCR first made contact with Hoover Dam and the Legion and how he lead them to victory.
He's a great source of info for a lore junkie and even talks about the NCR's campaigns into Mexico.
Marcus? I only found him memorable because of Fallout 2, nothing more.
He was a peaceful, intelligent mutant that is actually trying to build a civilisation for mutants and create peace between mutants and the NCR (cosidering how much the NCR hate mutants e.g. Mean Sonofabitch). The closest thing in F3 was Underworld, a paranoid city of ghouls who didn't seem to be making much attempt of negotiation compared to Marcus and also doesn't have as much background lore. When talking to Marcus he gives you a lot of information aboutt he formation of Jacobstown and how it came about and even mentions the Chosen One from Fallout 2 which is nice. However, I admit that after exhausting dialogue and doing his quest he becomes useless, would've been nice to have him as a comapanion again. Also his opinions on the current situation are nice to listen to.
Col. Moore? I saw her as nothing more than a hard-ass colonel, very generic.
She's a good representation of what the NCR is doing wrong. She is very pro-military and very anti-diplomacy, a major weakness for the NCR that has caused them to be so hated by so many communities. Her answer to everything is just more guns or kill them, a very negative, barbaric and backwards approach to forming a republic and one that will clearly lead to the end of the NCR if it continues.
President Kimbal? When did you actually see him? I only saw him when he was making that speech and was trying to prevent his assassination. I saw no character in that.
It isn't just what you encounter personally, but also what other people say about them. Although you only see him once he is mentioned by other people in conversation. It can be gathered that Kimball is a president obsessed with his own legend and the legend of the NCR, he is thick-headed and clearly does not see the error of his ways and when it comes right down to it really doesn't care for his own country. If you listen to his entire speech at the very end he says a very private thing without realising the microphone is still on that basically shows he doesn't care aboutt he soldiers or anyone and that as long as the NCR stay glorious then so will he.
Gen. Oliver? Reminded me of Patton, minus the personality. That was probably because of the laughably bad performance of the voice actor, though.
That basically who he is; Patton but without the military capability. He is very similar to Moore in that he is more focused on military matters and becoming a legend than he is fighting for his own people and soldiers. He is arrogant and basically Kimball's lacky. He is especially interesting to talk to when siding with House or Yes Man because he refuses to believe that he has lost and shows just how thick-headed he is. Yes I admit his voice wasn't that great but his lines were, and his uniform, and seeing him throw off Hoover Dam was hilarious.
Col. Hsu? Other than caring for his soldiers, I thought was your standard military officer, just as generic as Moore.
He is almost the opposite kind of officer Moore is, he cares for his troops and does not act rash. He is one of the very few high ranking NCR officers who isn't thick-headed or entirely militaristic and along with Chief Hanlon is one of the few small hopes for the NCR's military victory.
Caesar? Okay, I'm not going to deny it, I loved Caesar. I thought he was bursting with personality and character and was the coolest guy in the game. I still disagreed with his politics, but that does not make him a bad character.
Nice to see someone who doesn't go "He hates women, he is a bad character, kill him I don't want to listen to what he has to say!". I to disagree with
some of his beliefs but he does do everything in a kind of "ends justify the means" kind of way.
Joshua Graham? Okay, I thought the lore of the Burned Man was an interesting one. He had a really cool back story and he really seemed to have an influence on the Legion.
...and he's voiced by Keith Szarabajka, which is an instant win.
Julie Farkas? I thought she was incredibly boring. At least Moira Brown had personality to her, Julie Farkas sounded like she was bored out of her god damn mind whenever she talked.
She is depressed, she hates what the NCR have caused and hates how nobody can ever get along. She is a symbol of hope that eventually the people of the Mojave and Nevada can live good lives once again, however, this is also a fault as it makes her too optimistic but that is balanced out by her cautiosness and lack of trust for others (except for the courier).
Papa Khan? I admit, he had some character to him. He seemed much more calm compared to the rest of the Khans, which made me much more interested in him. He was no Caesar, but he was worth talking to.
Yes, it was nice to see a calm and collected leader of a raider group who was also ambitious and confused. He is a good leader who cares for his members, but he is also blinded by what happened at Bitter Springs and requires extensive proof to break off his alliance with Caesar.
Oh, and he's voiced by Ian Gregory, another instant win.
Regis? You mean that one Khan that followed Benny when he shot you? Because that's all I remember of him.
Nope, Regis is Papa Khan's right hand man. His most trusted advisor and one of the very few Khans who does not hold a grudge against the NCR for what they did at Bitter Springs. Yeah sure he hates what happened, but at the same time he realises that can't let the past block the future.
Mr. House? I guess he was pretty cool but he seemed too much like the Illusive Man from Mass Effect 2 and Andrew Ryan from Bioshock. Idealistic but mysterious. Interesting, but in no way original, I've seen this character too many times before.
Well I haven't played ME2 so I can't compare, however, I think it's unfair to compare him to Andrew Ryan. He was a great character but he was based on Objectivism and the teachings of Ayn Rand, Mr House is based on Howard Hughes. Howard Hughes was obsessed with planes and eventually became cut off from the outside world, House is obsessed with robots and advanced technology and also eventually becomes cut off from the real world. I thought he was a very interesting character that offered a lot of backstory as to how Vegas survived and how he, unlike the NCR, truly cares for New Vegas and treats it like his own child.
Legate Lanius? He suffered the same fate as President Kimball: You barely saw any of him so you can barely judge him.
I love Lanius, one of my favourite characters. Although you only meet him once, that one meeting is enough to give you a good sense of his personality. Throughout the game people like Caesar and Vulpes comment on how they think Lanius is dangerous and is a savage beats who has no care for anything. What surprised me is that he wasn't liek that, he cares greatly for his troops and takes the battle into consideration. Compare him to Oliver, Moore and Kimball, they are convinced that they can keep going and expand the NCR and especially Oliver who can't even be bargained with when spoken to because he has no respect for the courier. Amazingly, Lanius is not like this, if talked to enough he admits that yes, the Legion cannot keep expanding and will eventually lose, he has something that Kimball, Moore and Oliver lack - honour. He can be convinced to step back and stop the attack and he then states that he respects the courier and that he is a very strong person who is much better than the leaders of the NCR. I wouldn't call him "civil", but when it comes to battle he is more respectful and calm when ti comes to confrontation, even offering to fight 1v1 with the Courier (compared to Oliver who sets up traps, barriers and is protected by rangers).
Doctor Henry? Okay, pretty cool, too, but he had some flaws. I liked that he showed some sympathy for the Nightkins, but since they were mutants and he was a former Enclave member, where did all of his care for these creatures come from? He was raised to hate mutants, why is he liking them all of a sudden?
Henry is smart, he wasn't a complete believer in the Enclave unlike Moreno and knew what he was doing.
Orion Moreno? Just another former Enclave member, but lacking as much story as Henry.
He gives some good (if not biased) insight to life under the NCR and how they took away his home and constantly made his life worse.
McNamara? I thought he was contradicting. He wouldn't accept Veronica's proof or claims that the Brotherhood needed to evolve but he would side with the NCR? What?
One thing I loved about McNamara is that he is the complete opposite of Lyons from F3. The BoS in F3 were horrible, they were too perfect; altruistic knights-in-shining-armour that helped the poor and weak and sacrifice their men for the good of the wasteland. That isn't the same BoS from F1/2, what happened to the xenophobic conservative assholes from those games? McNamara went back to the good ol' BoS we loved to hate, he was an interesting character because he didn't know what to do, he was losing the war with the NCR and thought what he was doing was right because it was in the codex. He represents conformity and Veronica is his opposite. he cares for his people, but does not know how to care for them in a practical way and his is so unsure of himself that he will not even consider Veronica's proposal.
Also, just a side note but "I Could Make You Care" is one of my favourite quests.
Ulysses? Again, another mysterious character. I can't say much about him.
That's what makes him interesting, although he does not appear in the game directly (haven't played Old World Blues yet), he is mentioned by people. Nash at Primm mentions the courier before us saw our name and said to give it to him, in Dead Money Christine mentions meeting a courier who said that he was looking for someone from his past and in Honest Hearts Joshua says that he thought the Legion would thier courier (Ulysses is with the the other Caesars Legion characters in the Collectors Edition deck of cards) so it can be assumed he is referring to Ulysses.
And where did you get the idea that that was the method for filtering out radiation? I may not know much about that, but I know it has to be more complex than that!
Nope, it's as simple as drilling some holes in the bottom of a bucket, placing some rocks at the bottom, then a cloth, some dirt, another cloth and then pourinf the water into it. The water will be filtered through the dirt and rocks and come out through the holes and into whatever device you have underneath (like a water bottle or another bucket).
Don't tell me all of that actually made gameplay feel different. Sure, maybe companion wheels and perks and traits changed things up a little bit, hardcore mode did add a challenge or two, and a none luck based speech system was quite noticeable. But did that really affect the way you held and fired a gun? Sure, all of that was all nice and good, but it barely had an affect on the over all gameplay.
They were still there, also I forgot to mention low intelligence dialogue and different bullet types and creation. Yeah sure they're all mostly small and minor but there are more new things in New Vegas then there are in some other sequels. In Halo 2 the only significant difference was duel weapons and some multiplayer tweaks. However, when it comes to New Vegas everyone is always all "New vegas added nothing and is just glorified DLC".
This is so untrue in so many different ways.
evilneko said:
Why bother arguing with him? He's an Interplay Fallout diehard, probably a regular at NMA, and under no circumstances will be convinced. Subjective subject is subjective.
No I'm not an Interplay fanboy, especially since Black Isle was closed down and most of the good people at Inerplay left. Also I've only ever visited NMA once to download the Van Buren demo. I do not think F1/2 are the greatest games ever made and I admit they have faults, so does New Vegas. Fallout 3, however, has way more faults and few redeeming qualities for me.
