Sexuality in games

[josemlopes]

So yeah, this my first thread about this sort of thing, I know the Escapist already has plenty and I feel sorry that I created one more but this is something that I wanted to say for some time and a recent conversation with a friend brought up these points .


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So the first thing is that I dont think that the sexuality of the characters should be brought up unless needed for story purposes (give justification of the characters actions to each other). This goes both ways be the characters heterosexual or homosexual, the heterosexual is more prevelant but no one likes it when its a forced romance and that is what it usually is, making the character have an homosexual romance for the same reasons its still a forced romance that doesnt help anyone.

I saw recenly some dev talking about how he wanted to make a certain character (cant remember wich but I dont think it was the protagonist) a strong, independant gay hero. Thats all fine and dandy but even though they werent allowed to make him gay the character was still a bucket of bland, making him gay would still just make him a bland gay character. The words "strong" and "independant" are buzzwords that I cant really blame a writter or dev for using them, anyone that writtes a story wants their characters to be well defined and well written, its not their fault that their arent writting gold each time they pick up a pen.


Back to the original point, in games where the hero must save the world and shit most of the times there isnt any clear indication of the main hero sexual preferences, games like Gears of War, Call of Duty, Portal, basicly any game where the main character doesnt have a romance subplot. In those games we could have been told in an dev interview that the main characters were gay and it would have been the exact same games, with what we are shown we couldnt even write in a wiki page about them if they are straight or not because we simply dont know.

In Gears of War I think it works great as it is, the only characters with clear sexuality shown are Dom and Baird, with Dom it gives a lot of justification of his actions and what happens to him in GOW3, with Baird it just shows how much of a loveable douchebag he is.


I think the sexuality of a character only needs to be shown if its important for the story (Deus Ex: HR, Max Payne, Brutal Legend), if him being straight or gay actually influences how the story unfolds. With that you cant just really make a character gay for the hell of it (and straight, like I said forced romances suck for everyone) and if it isnt an important part of the story then dont make a big fuss about it (well done with a gay in The Last of Us with Bill and with a straight in Gears of War 3 with Baird, and poorly done with The Last of Us DLC).

For what most games cover (wars and conflict for power) I think that most kinds of romances are just pandering for any kind of audience, be it the audience that wants to see tits or the audience that wants to see gays. I think that wanting to see more characters of a certain type for the hell of it just doesnt justify it, and saying that we need "strong and independant" anything doesnt really help much either as it isnt some easy task that writters and devs just forget about for the lulz.

I the end I think that those characters are great for any kind of audience to relate to, you dont really need the character to come out full blown gay for an homosexual player be able to relate to him in the same way that you dont need the main character to grab a girl by the ass for a straight player to relate to him. Arent most games about "us" (the player) being in a bigger conflict like a war? Not about us being a straight person in a war or a gay person but just a person in a bigger conlict?

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So yeah, lets hope this doesnt get out of control or something.

 

[nomotog_v1legacy]

If you only included things that were needed for the plot, you would end up with a rather boring story. A good story (well, any story) is filled with a lot of details that in the end don't matter or don't affect the plot, but they help flush out the world or the characters.

 

[josemlopes]

If you only included things that were needed for the plot, you would end up with a rather boring story. A good story (well, any story) is filled with a lot of details that in the end don't matter or don't affect the plot, but they help flush out the world or the characters.

In my post I say that a romance subplot can be used (or at least majorly focused on) it if adds anything meaningfull to the story (I even give examples), something that most dont.

If its something that really doesnt matter dont make a big fuss about it.

 

[nomotog_v1legacy]

If you only included things that were needed for the plot, you would end up with a rather boring story. A good story (well, any story) is filled with a lot of details that in the end don't matter or don't affect the plot, but they help flush out the world or the characters.

In my post I say that a romance subplot can be used (or at least majorly focused on) it if adds anything meaningfull to the story (I even give examples), something that most dont.

If its something that really doesnt matter dont make a big fuss about it.

Then I don't think you made a very clear point. The impression I got from reading your post was, that you didn't want to see a characters sexuality defined unless it entered the plot. Was that right?

I don't think everything needs a romance subplot myself (They can be nice some times and they can even be the main plot.), but sexuality isn't just limited to romance. It comes up in a lot of places.

 

[huckleberryhound]

I don't think i'd get into a game with a Gay protagonist, just like i never create a female character when i have the option...I prefer my characters Male, with rippling biceps, glistening Pectorals, and arseless Chaps...oh, wait.

Not sure how to write the next part without falling into the "I'm not Homophobic...but". I have no problem with Gay guys jumping around the plot, but if a game was marketed as "Play a guy who can dance with impeccable dress sense, i'd probably wait for the Zombie mod. Same reason i don't play FF Games.

What i mean is, the nameless guy in FEAR could be a Gay cross dressing Acrotomophiliac for all i know, but unless a get i cut scene where he enters a restaurant with Oscar Pistorius it won't put me off the story.

 

[josemlopes]

Then I don't think you made a very clear point. The impression I got from reading your post was, that you didn't want to see a characters sexuality defined unless it entered the plot. Was that right?

I use Bill from TLOU and Baird from GOW as examples as even if there are moments where they use it only to flesh out a character at least they dont hang on to it for too long and make a big deal out of it.

Its a bit like the Hobbit movie with the added romance subplot, it doesnt change the rest of the story in anyway but the scenes around it are very long for something so meaningless, it could have just showed small details that they were somewhat into eachother (showing us that there could be love between races; that was the point of it, right?) instead of showing long scenes of them expressing their feelings.

 

[nomotog_v1legacy]

Then I don't think you made a very clear point. The impression I got from reading your post was, that you didn't want to see a characters sexuality defined unless it entered the plot. Was that right?

I use Bill from TLOU and Baird from GOW as examples as even if there are moments where they use it only to flesh out a character at least they dont hang on to it for too long and make a big deal out of it.

Its a bit like the Hobbit movie with the added romance subplot, it doesnt change the rest of the story in anyway but the scenes around it are very long for something so meaningless, it could have just showed small details that they were somewhat into eachother (showing us that there could be love between races; that was the point of it, right?) instead of showing long scenes of them expressing their feelings.

Bill was kind of neat in the last of us. I kind of felt like his sexuality was something of an Easter Egg. It is vaguely implied from the moment you meet him, but never out right stated. Though the bill side story was kind of meaningless to TLOU plot (fun though). Like only a few parts of TLOU actually matter in anyway. (You didn't like left behind's way of handling it?)

I think the point of the romance in the hobbit was to pad out what should have been one movie into a trilogy.

I think there can be stories where it's a good idea to hang on a characters sexuality and make it a big deal. Generally in stories were romance is kind of the point, but that can go without saying I guess.

 

[josemlopes]

I think there can be stories where it's a good idea to hang on a characters sexuality and make it a big deal. Generally in stories were romance is kind of the point, but that can go without saying I guess.

I actually think that games more focused on romance should eventually become a thing like they are in movies (not yet since the tech isnt exactly there or it will just be another Mass Effect romance).

Visual novels are a thing but I feel that a lot of it is just missing (probably a budget lol). I mean, it wouldnt be that out of place to have a game where you just hang around with people (where hijinks ensue) and at least try to get the best possible ending for everyone involved using yours words and actions (romance being a possibility). That would be a game that I would honestly like to see some day. A bit like if The Sims had an actual story and dialog with a beggining, a middle and an ending.

 

[Lieju]

Romance in general doesn't fit everywhere.

But depicting relationships and sexuality is more than that.
For example, seeing a married couple in the game. Maybe the parents of the protagonist.
Maybe a character makes an off-hand remark on how they find someone attractive or cute. Maybe an NPC refers to another NPC as their 'husband' when giving you a quest.

In some games, that are very cartoonish or don't have many characters, it might not come up at all.

But if you have a game with human interaction, it's unrealistic it wouldn't come up. Especially if we are talking about something like an RPG.

People just don't notice when it's heterosexual relationship being depicted this way.

Also, a character's sexuality being vague is all fine and good, but I am somewhat disturbed how often I hear the argument that a well-written gay character is someone who you can plausibly deny being gay.

How many games can you name that don't have any heterosexuality either? I can think of simulators, and maybe stuff like Kirby-games, where I don't think the majority of characters are even male or female.

 

[nomotog_v1legacy]

I think there can be stories where it's a good idea to hang on a characters sexuality and make it a big deal. Generally in stories were romance is kind of the point, but that can go without saying I guess.

I actually think that games more focused on romance should eventually become a thing like they are in movies (not yet since the tech isnt exactly there or it will just be another Mass Effect romance).

Visual novels are a thing but I feel that a lot of it is just missing (probably a budget lol). I mean, it wouldnt be that out of place to have a game where you just hang around with people (where hijinks ensue) and at least try to get the best possible ending for everyone involved using yours words and actions (romance being a possibility). That would be a game that I would honestly like to see some day. A bit like if The Sims had an actual story and dialog with a beggining, a middle and an ending.

You know you don't even have to go full visual novel. Imagine a game like Army of 2 40th day only a Slam and Reous(sp?) are dating and maybe their relationship is on the rocks. It could be kind of novel have the two of them work through a rocky spot in their relationship in between blowing away bad guys. You get some nice humor from the placement of every day relationship talk next to out of control action and it could really help flesh the two and their relationship.

They did do a sims game with a plot. I think a few actually. I know there was a thing on the PS2 port that had you create a sim and then lead them through a kind of loose story.

 

[Zhukov]

Also, a character's sexuality being vague is all fine and good, but I am somewhat disturbed how often I hear the argument that a well-written gay character is someone who you can plausibly deny being gay.

Uh huh. It often seems like people are saying, "Oh, it's fine to have gay characters. But not too gay! Just so long as I can totally disregard their sexuality, then it's okay."

Perhaps a better way to put it would be, "Gay characters should (like all characters) have more to them than their orientation. So they are character who happen to be gay rather than characters who exist to be The Gay Guy." (Or The Gay Chick I suppose, although, for some mysterious reason, lesbians don't seem to draw quite the same ire.)

...

As for the main topic, I find it kinda weird to just ignore sexuality because... reasons. Sex happens. Relationships happen. Obviously not everything needs a romantic subplot or a couple of sex scenes, but there's nothing wrong with including such things as details for your world and characters, even if they aren't central to the plot.

Also, not every game is about saving the world in a war and not every game should be. We're loaded to the fucking gunwales with games about saving the world in a war.

 

[josemlopes]

You know you don't even have to go full visual novel. Imagine a game like Army of 2 40th day only a Slam and Reous(sp?) are dating and maybe their relationship is on the rocks. It could be kind of novel have the two of them work through a rocky spot in their relationship in between blowing away bad guys. You get some nice humor from the placement of every day relationship talk next to out of control action and it could really help flesh the two and their relationship.

They did do a sims game with a plot. I think a few actually. I know there was a thing on the PS2 port that had you create a sim and then lead them through a kind of loose story.

Basicly, yeah.

There are some games where the relationship is crucial for the development of the story (Red Dead Redemption, Call of Juarez 2, The Darkness) and there are certainly ways of making a gay relationship matter for the story (enough to make it become an element you couldnt do without), making a character gay because "progressive" really isnt one of them.

How many games can you name that don't have any heterosexuality either? I can think of simulators, and maybe stuff like Kirby-games, where I don't think the majority of characters are even male or female.

A lot actually. Im not really going to count characters that basicly dont have feelings because of story related shit (Hitman, Halo) or are complete mutes (Doom, Fear) because they either dont have any personality or their lack of sexual preference is artificial.
So with that you got the Ghost Recon games, Rainbow Six too, Lost Planet 2 (multiple playable characters),Gears of War, Dark Sector (recently played it so its fresh in my memory), most Call of Duty characters like Price and Soap, the Army of Two, Brothers in Arms (I think, dont remember exactly), Left 4 Dead and probably some more. These are all games that I played so I cant really judge on something that I never played and since the other amount of games where the characters dont speak (with some few exceptions like Half-Life 2) leave it all up to the player I think that its a lot more then just Kirby or simulators

Also, not every game is about saving the world in a war and not every game should be. We're loaded to the fucking gunwales with games about saving the world in a war.

I know, I even say that in another post but since most of the actual games are about that I dont think that those games really need all that much attention on romance as it usually comes of as pandering (not all as I also said before with examples like Max Payne, Call of Juarez 2 and Brutal Legend)

 

[Lieju]

How many games can you name that don't have any heterosexuality either? I can think of simulators, and maybe stuff like Kirby-games, where I don't think the majority of characters are even male or female.

A lot actually. Im not really going to count characters that basicly dont have feelings because of story related shit (Hitman, Halo) or are complete mutes (Doom, Fear) because they either dont have any personality or their lack of sexual preference is artificial.
So with that you got the Ghost Recon games, Rainbow Six too, Lost Planet 2 (multiple playable characters),Gears of War, Dark Sector (recently played it so its fresh in my memory), most Call of Duty characters like Price and Soap, the Army of Two, Brothers in Arms (I think, dont remember exactly), Left 4 Dead and probably some more. These are all games that I played so I cant really judge on something that I never played and since the other amount of games where the characters dont speak (with some few exceptions like Half-Life 2) leave it all up to the player I think that its a lot more then just Kirby or simulators

The main character in Hitman might be asexual killing robot, but are you claiming there are no mentions of heterosexual relationships in the games? Because you'd be wrong. I haven't played Lost Planet, so I'm not sure.
But didn't Gears of War have a whole subplot about that one guy's wife who died or something?

And heterosexual relationships were mentioned at least in Left for Dead when they talk about their friends and past and stuff.

I'll give you original Doom, though.

 

[josemlopes]

How many games can you name that don't have any heterosexuality either? I can think of simulators, and maybe stuff like Kirby-games, where I don't think the majority of characters are even male or female.

A lot actually. Im not really going to count characters that basicly dont have feelings because of story related shit (Hitman, Halo) or are complete mutes (Doom, Fear) because they either dont have any personality or their lack of sexual preference is artificial.
So with that you got the Ghost Recon games, Rainbow Six too, Lost Planet 2 (multiple playable characters),Gears of War, Dark Sector (recently played it so its fresh in my memory), most Call of Duty characters like Price and Soap, the Army of Two, Brothers in Arms (I think, dont remember exactly), Left 4 Dead and probably some more. These are all games that I played so I cant really judge on something that I never played and since the other amount of games where the characters dont speak (with some few exceptions like Half-Life 2) leave it all up to the player I think that its a lot more then just Kirby or simulators

The main character in Hitman might be asexual killing robot, but are you claiming there are no mentions of heterosexual relationships in the games? Because you'd be wrong. I haven't played Lost Planet, so I'm not sure.
But didn't Gears of War have a whole subplot about that one guy's wife who died or something?

And heterosexual relationships were mentioned at least in Left for Dead when they talk about their friends and past and stuff.

I'll give you original Doom, though.

I was actually talking especially about the protagonists, in Gears of War being Marcus Fenix for example, and how there are plenty of games where you can play as a character that leaves their sexuality up to the player. Having an entire game ignore any kind of relationship between every character doesnt really make mush sense for any type of player, I mean, they all have a mother and a father. My main point was how there isnt much reason on force feeding a romantic subplot almost entirely for the purpose of labeling a character as straight or gay.

 

[Lieju]

I was actually talking especially about the protagonists, in Gears of War being Marcus Fenix for example, and how there are plenty of games where you can play as a character that leaves their sexuality up to the player. Having an entire game ignore any kind of relationship between every character doesnt really make mush sense for any type of player, I mean, they all have a mother and a father. My main point was how there isnt much reason on force feeding a romantic subplot almost entirely for the purpose of labeling a character as straight or gay.

And my point specifically was that you don't need to shoehorn in a romantic subplot for the game to depict sexuality.

I mean, they all have a mother and a father.

???

Because single parents don't exist, and people in homosexual relationships can't have kids?

 

[josemlopes]

I was actually talking especially about the protagonists, in Gears of War being Marcus Fenix for example, and how there are plenty of games where you can play as a character that leaves their sexuality up to the player. Having an entire game ignore any kind of relationship between every character doesnt really make mush sense for any type of player, I mean, they all have a mother and a father. My main point was how there isnt much reason on force feeding a romantic subplot almost entirely for the purpose of labeling a character as straight or gay.

And my point specifically was that you don't need to shoehorn in a romantic subplot for the game to depict sexuality.

I mean, they all have a mother and a father.

???

Because single parents don't exist, and people in homosexual relationships can't have kids?

I know, and thats why I didnt include things like Duke Nukem. And the "everyone has a mother and father" had nothing to do with who can have kids or not, you said that those games had in some way heterosexual relations and so it was because for every character to be born a man and a woman had to have heterosexual sex (well, unless everyone had artificial insemination). It was more of a joke, it wasnt supposed to be taken seriously.

 

[Lieju]

I was actually talking especially about the protagonists, in Gears of War being Marcus Fenix for example, and how there are plenty of games where you can play as a character that leaves their sexuality up to the player. Having an entire game ignore any kind of relationship between every character doesnt really make mush sense for any type of player, I mean, they all have a mother and a father. My main point was how there isnt much reason on force feeding a romantic subplot almost entirely for the purpose of labeling a character as straight or gay.

And my point specifically was that you don't need to shoehorn in a romantic subplot for the game to depict sexuality.

I mean, they all have a mother and a father.

???

Because single parents don't exist, and people in homosexual relationships can't have kids?

I know, and thats why I didnt include things like Duke Nukem. And the "everyone has a mother and father" had nothing to do with who can have kids or not, you said that those games had in some way heterosexual relations and so it was because for every character to be born a man and a woman had to have heterosexual sex (well, unless everyone had artificial insemination). It was more of a joke, it wasnt supposed to be taken seriously.

I was talking about stuff like the characters talking about past relationships they've had, or some male character referring to their 'wife' or something. Sexuality and romantic relationships just naturally pop up in conversation every now and then.

It's just that people don't notice it when it's heterosexuality.
But if a homosexual relationship is portrayed in a completely similar way then suddenly OH NO THEY ARE FLAUNTING THEIR SEXUALITY GRR.

 

[Ratty]

If you're trying to make a living, breathing world your characters can't be, as one writer so succinctly put it, "automated quest kiosks" who appear to only exist to serve the plot. The NPCs need to have their own lives and their own interests away from the storyline and the player character. For most people, their sexuality and lovelife is a big part of who they are.

What many straight cisgendered people don't realize how casual and open they are about their own relationships, either in public affection for their partner or in talking about their home life. So that when gay or trans people talk about or publicly enjoy their relationships, which mean just as much to them as straight people's do, there's a tendency in some straight people to get super offended. As if 2 gay people holding hands or lightly kissing in public, or a gay person who talks about something funny their partner did at home, is somehow pornographic when it's not even worth noting when a straight person does the same thing.

This leads to the assumption that gays not hiding their relationships in fiction means the writers are being "gratuitous" or "pandering" rather than reflecting how humans actually act naturally, when they're not being driven by fear of violence or prejudice "into the closet". Bottom line, most of the people who complain about this "gratuitous gay pandering" wouldn't blink if the same innocent actions were done by straight characters.

 

[norashepard]

The problem here is that when sexuality isn't mentioned, people automatically assume the character in question is straight. So, of course, there are thousands upon thousands of straight characters. For a game to quickly mention that a character is a lesbian and move on doesn't detract from the story in a major way, builds the character, and gives lesbians the happiness that comes from legitimately seeing yourself in your media.

And no, keeping it ambiguous isn't helpful either. It's like shows and books where they keep cheekily hinting that so and so is gay but never actually show him thinking about dudes romantically. That's not representation at all. At best it's using sexuality as a way to cynically bait gay viewers, or at worst, it's a joke.

This is the same for every minority thing. "Why does a character have to be black if race doesn't matter?" Because white is the default and already has a multitude of characters to its name, while being black (or another minority) is shown so rarely that it may as well not actually exist. Being black doesn't hurt the story, and makes black players/readers/viewers feel validated in their existence.

 

[Callate]

Let me go out on a limb here and say that what most games have in place for social dynamics, let alone sexual/romantic ones, kind of sucks.

Bioware is kind of the obvious point of comparison. Full points to Bioware that it tries to work something resembling actual story, plot, and characterization into most of their games, and even (with caveats) that it's tried, however ham-handedly, to include the possibility that characters might be bisexual or homosexual. But as I've said before, the "this option will lead to future romantic sub-plots!" portions of the dialogue tree tend to be handled with all the grace and subtlety of a one-man-band falling down five flights of stairs. You Are The Hero; heaven forefend anyone say "I'm not interested in guys", or "I'm not interested in girls", or "You're not my type", or "I'm actually far more interested in this other character in our party", or even "You only bring me along on missions where you need me to absorb large amounts of damage, and combining that with what you did back at that village, I think you're kind of a dick."

It actually somewhat makes me long for early Ultimas where dialogue, however stilted and limited, was at least far more under the player's control. It would be a start if, rather than "Click here to have this character have PG-13 sex with you five hours of gameplay from now" or even Skyrim-style "Click here to make this character your ***** spouse", you were actually permitted to initiate flirting with a character you were interested in, if and only if you wanted to make that part of your story. When you were ready, in circumstances and situations that it seemed appropriate to you, without pressure that you were going to miss out on important plot points or some weird bonuses for failing to appreciate the creators' work in implementing the feature.

...And possibly have the character say, "No, I'm not interested", or "We just saw a hundred people get massacred by monsters, what the hell is wrong with you."