Sexy fantasy armor...

[The Lunatic]

You're assuming both the violence and sex are being consumed at the same time.

They're not. They're simply both present and ready to be consumed.

Just because I'm holding a beer in my left hand and a steak in my right doesn't mean I'm doing what you're saying.

I mean by your logic I have a deeply held association between violence and gorgeous sunsets because both of those are present on my screen at the same time frequently in my modded Skyrim.

Just because two things are both there at the same time and even getting mixed (the beer and steak do mix in your stomach) doesn't imply that's their purpose for being there nor any association between them.

This analogy isn't really making sense at this stage.

Given nobody has answered the question I asked, instead continually dodging the question.

I'll instead say this. State another form of media in which you would find heavily sexualised women doing violent acts.

If the answer isn't some creepy B movie or snuff porn, I'll be impressed.

By all means. I'll entertain the idea, that somehow, having an incredibly overly sexualised women beating the shit out of people is somehow separate from sexual gratification, if you can come up with an example where it's not the intent of the media.

 

[V da Mighty Taco]

I am not throwing the term burka around out of context, when my friend and coworker was forced to wear one or be killed and risked her life and the lives of those she cared about to free herself from such things and would still be killed today if she attempted to return to visit her own family I do believe I use the term quite accurately. What I find ridiculous and insensitive is to downplay the effect on the lives of the women who have endured and continue to endure such things. No woman should be shamed into hiding her body. There is nothing shameful about a womans body.

Maybe it is a mater of perspective, my pov as a female native american I see too often women are forced to conform to others beliefs public and private shaming of women, men trying to tell their girlfriends what they should wear and see people actually being uncomfortable with women's skin even in games? It is absurd. Maybe they need exposed to MORE nudity to desensitize them to the fact that naked isn't shameful.

When discussing traditional medieval settings, how could they also have Romans, Greeks, Celts and Gauls without having nudity being standard when in reality it was? I was under the impression that was considered Europe as well.

This right here is the entire problem with your argument - you are arguing against something entirely different than the topic at hand and strawmanning people's arguments to do so. The entire point to the whole "sexy armor" debate is not in any way about shaming women, but about the writer's not treating women in general the same way they do men. People want gender equality here, which couldn't be any farther from condemning women. If male warriors consider it practical to wear semi-realistic, unsexualized armor in battle, then so should women warriors. That's ALL people are arguing here - not that women can't be sexualized at all, just that they shouldn't be sexualized at times when men being sexy wouldn't make sense either. Wanting consistency in a fictional universe and wanting women to hate themselves in reality are two entirely different things.

 

[Ariseishirou]

I say it'd all dependent on the world/setting. If every one is wearing sexy and skimpy and death-armor? Go right ahead! If the world has full plate mail and normal non-skin armor for one gender and a battlethong as the armor for the other gender? Forget that shit, my huge disbelief suspension maker thing just says "This is stupid."

Yeah I'm exactly the same way. Dudes are wearing fur loincloths and chicks are wearing chainmail bikinis? Sure, whatever, it's clearly just an escapist fantasy world instead of a realistic one. If "durr hurr but it's lighter and lets them move and shows how awesome they are in battle" is an argument in favour of skimpy boob plate in your world, it would apply equally to male warriors. Armour is heavy. They'd be much more comfortable running around in gitch.

This is why I don't get up in arms about Soul Caliber, really. Sure, there's Ivy, but just about every hot dude has a shirtless fanservice mode, so whatever. It's that kind of game.

Likewise, if some armour is going to be realistic, I want it all to be realistic, a la Dark Souls. It's really only the "dudes in massive plate armour, chicks in chainmail bikinis" art that bothers me. I suppose the reverse would as well, but I've literally never seen it.

 

[Hagi]

You're assuming both the violence and sex are being consumed at the same time.

They're not. They're simply both present and ready to be consumed.

Just because I'm holding a beer in my left hand and a steak in my right doesn't mean I'm doing what you're saying.

I mean by your logic I have a deeply held association between violence and gorgeous sunsets because both of those are present on my screen at the same time frequently in my modded Skyrim.

Just because two things are both there at the same time and even getting mixed (the beer and steak do mix in your stomach) doesn't imply that's their purpose for being there nor any association between them.

This analogy isn't really making sense at this stage.

Given nobody has answered the question I asked, instead continually dodging the question.

I'll instead say this. State another form of media in which you would find heavily sexualised women doing violent acts.

If the answer isn't some creepy B movie or snuff porn, I'll be impressed.

By all means. I'll entertain the idea, that somehow, having an incredibly overly sexualised women beating the shit out of people is somehow separate from sexual gratification, if you can come up with an example where it's not the intent of the media.

Movies, TV shows, anime, comics, books. Pretty much everything really?

I mean where the heck did you think the chainmail bikini came from? I'll tell you, it's not games.

Simplest example, Red Sonja. She's featured in all of the above except anime (and please don't tell me to give a concrete example out of anime, you can't possibly be that sheltered).

 

[MCerberus]

but I don't believe its worth drumming up so much controversy over, like with Dragon's Crown.

What was the controversy? A couple of magazines gave them middling-to-good reviews, justified only in part by saying the girls were offputting.

Aaaaaactually, that's nowhere close to practical.

Plate armour was not designed to just put metal between your flesh and the sharp things. That's helpful, but there's more to it than that.

It was shaped in such a way as to deflect blades and points, to make them turn off to the side rather than taking the full impact.

In terms of modern armour, there's still that practicality issue, too. I've found a couple of companies offering "form-fitting" armour (which still doesn't have the full contour), and I sort of wonder if there's any efficacy there. They say it doesn't compromise protection and maybe it doesn't, though it's a different era. Still, most female combat armour has been modified for changes internally rather than to give women a form-fitting, boob shape.

A couple of things, if you look at that "Controversy", the outfits were noticeable, because they were designed to be. When a reviewer has to say "Come on, seriously?", then it's fair game to knock off points. But it became more than that, because of course it has to.

Second, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't "form fitting" modern armor "it fits women"? The US military in particular has a problem where pretty much all of its stock is based off a narrow range of male dimensions, making it impractical but "better than nothing" for female soldiers to wear.

 

[The Lunatic]

Movies, TV shows, anime, comics, books. Pretty much everything really?

I mean where the heck did you think the chainmail bikini came from? I'll tell you, it's not games.

Simplest example, Red Sonja. She's featured in all of the above except anime (and please don't tell me to give a concrete example out of anime, you can't possibly be that sheltered).

Uhmm... I really don't think you're quite aware of what kind of skyrim mods he's talking about if you think Red Sonya is sexualised compared to those.

 

[Thaluikhain]

What bugs me about the "putting women in burkas" thing is that I don't otherwise disagree with her whole premise. I'm fine with the idea of socketed armour where you can put the best mods on any armour you damn well please. The problem comes in with this repeated insistence that I'm somehow oppressing women (and on par with a rather misogynistic culture) because I want my characters to wear sensible clothes. Which sort of undermines the choice afforded by armour sockets/slots in the first place. Not to mention, that's its own brand of shaming.

There's a lot of that regarding the burqa itself.

In some places, women are forced to wear the burqa, regardless of what they might choose. Many people object to this, and many of those who do demand that women be forced not to wear it instead, regardless of what they might choose.

There is something of a problem there.

 

[Hagi]

Movies, TV shows, anime, comics, books. Pretty much everything really?

I mean where the heck did you think the chainmail bikini came from? I'll tell you, it's not games.

Simplest example, Red Sonja. She's featured in all of the above except anime (and please don't tell me to give a concrete example out of anime, you can't possibly be that sheltered).

Uhmm... I really don't think you're quite aware of what kind of skyrim mods he's talking about if you think Red Sonya is sexualised compared to those.

I'm fully aware of the kind of Skyrim mods he's talking about.

Are some of them more sexualised than Red Sonja? Certainly (then again, many sexy armor mods are not). But are you seriously going to stand here and claim Red Sonja isn't heavily sexualized, inspired by completely different motivations than the desire to see a hot big-breasted woman in as skimpy clothing as basically possible?

You asked for a heavily sexualised woman doing violent acts in another medium, I gave you one.

If you want more extreme they're not hard to find at all. Red Sonja ain't a stereotype for nothing, trust me when I say that there's absolutely no shortage at all of people taking that stereotype much further in pretty much every single medium.

It might not be your taste, to be honest it's not really mine either, but that doesn't mean it's some vile perverted thing that must surely be about sexual gratification from violence. It just means people like fictional sex. It just means people like fictional violence. Both being present at the same time doesn't mean they're automatically related and mixed.

If you find yourself incapable of grasping something so utterly simple, something so omni-present in our culture since basically forever, then I'm honestly not sure what to say...

 

[CloudAtlas]

Second, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't "form fitting" modern armor "it fits women"? The US military in particular has a problem where pretty much all of its stock is based off a narrow range of male dimensions, making it impractical but "better than nothing" for female soldiers to wear.

The US military has problems with body armor for their female soldiers because men just tend to have larger frames. The armors are just too large for the women overall. Body armors tailored towards female frames would be more form-fitting in the sense that they fit better to female frames, but form-fitting in this context is usually used to describe sort of elastic, skin tight attire. But even when female soldiers get body armors perfectly tailored towards their frames, they will still be bulky and not 'emphasize the female form' or anything like that. They won't look "sexy" like, say, Mass Effect's FemShep's armor, for example.

 

[The Lunatic]

Snip

Clearly you have no idea what I'm talking about.

But, if I ever need 1950s standards for sexualisation, I'll give you a bell.

Also, I said he was "Creepy", really not that massive of a slight. I'm a furry. I'm probably most people's idea of creepy too. The rest is entirely of your thinking, I'm afraid.

Unless you're about to admit you've hacked his PC and personally gone over his modlist or somehow put surveillance in his room then I'd like to know just how you'd know what kind of mods it is that he talked about when he said sexy armour considering the guy never even gave his definition of said concept.

Given we're all apparently allowed to make sweeping assumptions, I'm going to say, yes. I definitely did this.

 

[Hagi]

I've plenty on the Skyrim Nexus. I've seen plenty on Loverslab.

I know extremely well what kind of mods are out there.

From the skin-tight leather outfits to the chain-mail bikinis. From the panties and lingerie to all kinds of piercings and chains. From schoolgirl outfits to cowbells. From entire assortments of various 'plugs' to mods that make just about every single body part that could conceivably jiggle do so and then some more.

The purpose of all of these remains exactly the same as the purpose of Red Sonja's bikini. To titillate, to arouse, to excite and to lust after.

The combination of titillation, lust and erotica with violence, blood and death has been pretty much present in every society we know of. And it's never been the same as sexual violence, as violence for the sake of sexual gratification.

It's merely the combination of what's generally seen as two of our most base instincts, to fight and to fuck. Simply because they're present at the same time, in the same piece of fiction does not automatically mean they're mixed.

 

[DarkhoIlow]

I like both kinds really, but I lean towards the "non practical ones".

I find those more fascinating than practical armor. I want to see how far would some people go without getting the "this is simply too explicit to show in a mature game".

 

[Piorn]

Sexy armor has it's place as a visual story telling medium.

Like when a character is too occupied with looks instead of practicality, you can make an interesting point about vanity by having him/her stabbed in the e.g. gigantic cleavage hole of the armor right in the heart.
Or an extravagant magic user who doesn't need armor and makes his magic as much of a show as a fight.
Or when the culture has grown so decadent that the armor has lost any practical meaning and is only used ceremonially.

Nothing is inherently bad.

 

[Artemicion]

Whether there is something wrong with you liking that or not is not the question.

The question is whether a world is better for being designed in such a way, in a way that satisfies your preferences. Skyrim might be "less boring" for you if many of its women wear ridiculous sexualized armors, but it certainly is less internally consistent for it. Because Skyrim very much tries to portay a "realistic" world, and incidentally an equal opportunity world too, and ridiculous sexualized armors, for only one gender at that, just have no place in such a world. It destroys immersion.

OH NO MY IMMERSION ANYTHING BUT THAT NOOO. Actually immersion, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. I'm not saying sexy armor makes it more immersive for me, but I'm no less immersed by it's presence. Also, whose question is that? It's not mine, and it's not the original poster's.

Also also, there are plenty of lore-friendly sexy armor and clothing mods. Whenever someone hears "sexy armor mod" they immediately jump straight to the Slave Leia, which is simultaneously humorous and idiotic. You don't have to be naked to be sexy, and sexy doesn't always mean naked.

Trading off internal consistency for titillation might be worth it for you personally, but that's it. Don't suggest that it would be realistic (as you do in the following posts) or that Skyrim's world might be objectively better for it.

Yes, because all of those fictional references of mine are realistic, and I also said that Skyrim is objectively better because of my sexy armors.

I don't have a problem debating my opinions, but I definitely do have a problem with people putting words in my mouth. Don't do it.

Personally, I find the third one to be troubling. Can you explain what's "boring" about not having sexy armour?

Oh no. Skyrim may very well still be boring WITH sexy armor. It's not the sexy armor that makes it not boring, it's the addition of more content. I make it less boring for me with sexy armor (among new houses, quest lines, followers, enemies, and many, many, many other things). Perhaps I should have more accurately defined that my post was of my preference alone.

Also, I said he was "Creepy", really not that massive of a slight. I'm a furry. I'm probably most people's idea of creepy too. The rest is entirely of your thinking, I'm afraid.

Maybe instead of posting ad hominem attacks in the forum, you actually start a debate with a valid argument. If you did that, I wouldn't consider your attitude to be incredibly bigoted. Though it was pretty funny when you said this:

James Bond? Jason Borne? These people are just buff heroes, they're not sexualised, they're just in shape.

I guess being athletic is sexualisation now. Gee, who knew.

Nevermind the fact that James Bond [http://thesuitsofjamesbond.com/?p=2868] is a sex symbol, you go so far as to say that men can't be sexy, they can only be in shape. I actually LOL'd at the blatant ignorance on show.

Who the fuck are talking about? Because it's not Dead Raen. He never said he got "sexual gratification" form killing people in this thread. You're straight up attacking a straw-man right now.

Seriously, where the hell did this sexual gratification from murdering people come from?

 

[elvor0]

Nevermind the fact that James Bond [http://thesuitsofjamesbond.com/?p=2868] is a sex symbol, you go so far as to say that men can't be sexy, they can only be in shape. I actually LOL'd at the blatant ignorance on show.

Yup, this scene is totally not sexy:

People get funny about men being sexulized in that way though, I've seen casino royale on american channels a couple of times, and that bit where he actually comes out of the water, for some reason been cropped so it's an upper body shot as opposed to a full body, presumably so men don't catch the gay from seeing Daniel Craigs pouch.

However, I'll agree that men don't get the "piece of meat" view to any of the same degree. The only ones I can think of off the top of my head are Batman in Batman Forever, Snake and Raiden in Metal Gear, and James Bond in that one scene. James Bond may be a Sex Symbol, but he's not Sexualized, nor in the same way women are. Women fancy him because he's good looking and cool as fuck, beside that one scene the camera doesn't oogle his body like women get. To my memory Jason Bourne didn't get gratuitous arse or crotch shots either.

 

[WanderingFool]

For me, I like good looking armour that is actually practical (and no, even if it's full plate, boob plates aren't practical) and could properly work. A lot of designers don't seem to understand that there are plenty of examples of proper historical armour that both looks visually appealing or is exotic that could work in fantasy games. You don't need silly, over-the-top designs that only people who can suspend the largest of disbelief could get into.

Of course, if you're into purely fictional armour, that's fine, to each their own. But to me, there has to be at least some degree of practicality to it for me to take it seriously. Same goes for weapons.

I feel the same way, while I can like and maybe even enjoy sexy armor, Doesnt change the fact that a suit of armor that looks like a fucking walking tank when worn by a guy, suddenly looks like like something designed by Victoria Secret when worn by a girl.

Also, I cant stand huge swords like this:

Spoiler

 

[CloudAtlas]

Actually immersion, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.

Only to some extent. Immersion (not only, but also) depends on internal inconsistency, which is not subjective. How sensitive you are to specific violations of internal consistency, THAT is in the eye of the beholder.
And as it happens, many people became quite sensitive when it comes to unreasonable female armors, thanks to discussions like these. They just notice it immediately.

Also, whose question is that? It's not mine, and it's not the original poster's.

It was your statement. You stated there's nothing wrong with someone liking sexy armors. I stated that this is not the question here. Which it isn't.

Also also, there are plenty of lore-friendly sexy armor and clothing mods.

No, there are no lore friendly "sexy armor" mods (i.e. mods featuring distinctily sexualized armor) for Skyrim. In the world of Skyrim, all female warriors wear reasonable armors (apart from mild boob cups). Female characters in general are (almost) not sexualized whatsoever in Skyrim; the most you get in terms of titilation is a bar maid with cleavage.
Thus, no "sexy armor" will be be consistent with what you see in Skyrim otherwise, and consequently no "sexy armor" can be lore friendly.

 

[Nickolai77]

Sexy fantasy armour's also a really cheap advertising gimmick to get the attention of guys as much as it is a design feature, and both have been overused to the extent that it has now become a prominent issue in how women in video games are portrayed. Advertisers and certain video game developers are both equally to blame here.

There is a time and a place for "sexy fantasy armour"- In porn obviously, but also in certain games which are a bit comedic, tongue in cheek or satirical in their general style. What I don't like though is seeing sexy fantasy armour in more serious games, because there's no need for it, it's lazy design and it often objectifies female characters which puts of females in real life from playing those sorts of games.

It's perfectly possible to make attractive, tasteful and practical female armour. I'm certainly not against female characters being designed in a way which compliments the female form- the key thing however is that it should be designed in a tasteful way if you're making a serious game.

 

[mecegirl]

Naked will not work for a member of a S.W.A.T team for instance. Nor would exposed breasts(male or female) or an exposed midsection(male or female). There are too many bullets flying around to forgo at least some padding. And that's what bullet proof vests and the like were made for. Yes, they cover up the body. But how is that a bad thing?

It's amusing to picture a woman being asked to wear a bullet proof vet and her responding that it's no better than trying to put her in a Burka, though.

I wanted to make a point, but when looking at the rest of what you said, I thought I'd make a second one, as well. The whole "some groups go topless" thing is definitely true. Even in the Northeast of what's now the US it wasn't uncommon for women of indigenous tribes to go topless: in appropriate weather. I mean, yeah, this goes to what you said about women and climate: just because women weren't ashamed of their breasts doesn't mean they went around in the middle of a Noreaster completely naked.

But more to my original point, based on this.

What bugs me about the "putting women in burkas" thing is that I don't otherwise disagree with her whole premise. I'm fine with the idea of socketed armour where you can put the best mods on any armour you damn well please. The problem comes in with this repeated insistence that I'm somehow oppressing women (and on par with a rather misogynistic culture) because I want my characters to wear sensible clothes. Which sort of undermines the choice afforded by armour sockets/slots in the first place. Not to mention, that's its own brand of shaming.

It gets really touchy when the subject intersects with Middle Eastern women and their choice to cover themselves. By all means forcing the burka on anyone is wrong, but that has little to do with why some women choose to wear say a hijab. Some western feminists can be very pushy with their beliefs, when really all that matters is if an individual has free choice to follow their own path. So to say that they have to bare themselves in order to be truly liberated is no different than saying that one has to always be covered. Just like a woman who chooses to wait until marriage to have sex is just as "sexually liberated" as a woman who has chosen to have multiple partners.

In this case though we aren't even really talking about what a woman would wear in everyday life, but what she would wear to do a specific task. And preferring one type of fantasy armor over another is just a preference. Some people may prefer a Conan type of world and the armor that comes with it. Others may prefer a Aragorn type of world and the armor that comes with it. It's no different from preferring a dystopian future to a utopian future. It's only an issue because content creators will create an Aragon type of world and only have the women dress like they come from a Conan type of world(the same would work for the opposite situation but we never see the opposite situation). As if we aren't supposed to notice the difference and question why she is dressed for the wrong climate and type of combat. Unless she is a recent immigrant she would adhere to whatever armoring conventions are common in her culture. Not wear what the men wear but with strategically placed cutouts.

 

[Aaron Sylvester]

I disagree with people who say that sexy/revealing armor is wrong and should be abolished from games at all costs.

I welcome sexy impractical armor in fantasy-themed games (e.g. fantasy MMOs or RPGs) where realism is not really a priority.
People who point at sexy armor saying "that's not practical!" or point at heels saying "how can she fight in that?!" are probably missing the point of videogames, especially when they'll happily ignore the fact that said character is throwing magic spells, running at supersonic speeds or swinging around a car-sized sword.

Of course this is something that entirely boils down to preference, I'm OK with people saying they want a few more options with full-covering female armor. Express your opinion and the developers/artists may take the ideas onboard if enough people want it. But don't demand it as if it's your right or "gamer entitlement" as we know it