Sexy fantasy armor...

[CloudAtlas]

China, India and a whole bunch of other 3rd world countries have extremely traditional gender roles and they are popping out babies like no tomorrow.

China has a rapidly aging population as well, it's population growth is on the decline since quite a while, and the Chinese population is projected to peak within the next decades. So, no, China is not popping babies like no tomorrow, and hardly is a good example for your case.

The difference between Japan and your 3rd world countries is that in Japan, women are well-educated and are able to make a decent living on their own. However, thanks to traditional gender roles that still persist, women are expected to stop working as soon as they're married - at the latest as soon as they're getting kids. That is why more and more Japanese women don't want to pursue serious relationships - it's not that they don't like children, not necessarily, they just don't want to give up their jobs.

To break it down simply.

Japan are also a country that I highly doubt is going anywhere, they are working on multiple solutions to the birthing issue and giving women equal treatment/rights could very well be part of that solution - but I don't see how it will change their outlook on sexualisation in videogames.

As soon as Japan is tackling its more serious issues, as it probably will sooner or later - the cracks in its society are already huge and will only get bigger - I wouldn't be surprised if Japanese feminists too will turn towards the rampant sexualization in Japanese media.

In any case I never said Japan was a perfect country, just that western nations could learn a thing or two from it. I.e. respecting all demographics equally, not over-reacting to everything gender/race/etc-related and understanding that sexualized characters in videogames are perfectly fine because there is a big market for them.

1. Japan is not exactly a paragon when it comes to racism issues, so you might not want to bring that example.
2. Isn't that exactly what the western female video gamer demographic wants and doesn't quite get? To be respcted equally? And how can you feel equally respected if your gender is objectified that often in games they'd like to enjoy, if they're often there for nothing but titilation?
Or are you suggesting that boy gamers are a demographic that is respected in Japan but not here?
You know, you comment on these topics an awful lot, but do you even understand why people have a problem with sexualization? Aren't you always arguing that women in fact don't deserve to be respected if the market - i.e. boys - doesn't want to see them respected? And aren't you kinda defending that an awful lot?

 

[Aaron Sylvester]

As soon as Japan is tackling its more serious issues, as it probably will sooner or later - the cracks in its society are already huge and will only get bigger - I wouldn't be surprised if Japanese feminists too will turn towards the rampant sexualization in Japanese media.

Won't be particularly smart of them to do that, it would be very short-sighted of them.

2. Isn't that exactly what the western female video gamer demographic wants and doesn't quite get? To be respcted equally?

Western female video gamer demographic? As far as the industry is concerned, said demographic is already VERY WELL catered to by Pop Cap games, Facebook and mobile games/apps. No sexism or sexualization to be found in those games.

And how can you feel equally respected if your gender is objectified that often in games they'd like to enjoy, if they're often there for nothing but titilation?

Which games are you talking about exactly

Or are you suggesting that boy gamers are a demographic that is respected in Japan but not here?

Male gamers get plenty of respect everywhere.

You know, you comment on these topics an awful lot, but do you even understand why people have a problem with sexualization?

Oh I understand. There is a group gamers & feminists who don't understand why sexualization exists to begin with, why it sells and want things to conform to their wishes and expectations. Fair enough, I get that.

Aren't you always arguing that women in fact don't deserve to be respected if the market - i.e. boys - doesn't want to see them respected? And aren't you kinda defending that an awful lot?

Not really : /
I don't really "defend" anything to be honest, I let market and consumer trends speak for themselves. I simply need to point at them
People throw around words like sexism and misogyny while not understanding that society itself is built on a foundation of NOT treating the genders 100% equally to each other. The entire foundation needs to change if you want to see a change in games. Media & entertainment is simply a tiny branch of society as a whole.

Calling sexism in videogames a "problem" is not seeing the forest for the trees. Or more like not seeing the forest for the twigs and leaves.

 

[CloudAtlas]

As soon as Japan is tackling its more serious issues, as it probably will sooner or later - the cracks in its society are already huge and will only get bigger - I wouldn't be surprised if Japanese feminists too will turn towards the rampant sexualization in Japanese media.

Won't be particularly smart of them to do that, it would be very short-sighted of them.

Why? Please enlighten me with your undoubtedly profound insights into the Japanese psyche and society.

2. Isn't that exactly what the western female video gamer demographic wants and doesn't quite get? To be respcted equally?

Western female video gamer demographic? As far as the industry is concerned, said demographic is already VERY WELL catered to by Pop Cap games, Facebook and mobile games/apps.

And as far as female gamers themselves are concerned?

And how can you feel equally respected if your gender is objectified that often in games they'd like to enjoy, if they're often there for nothing but titilation?

Which games are you talking about exactly

First you're suggesting that there are many games with sexualized female characters because that's what the market wants, now you're suggesting that they don't exist... despite the market wanting them and that being all that matters? What is it now?

Or are you suggesting that boy gamers are a demographic that is respected in Japan but not here?

Male gamers get plenty of respect everywhere.

So which demographic were you talking about that is supposedly respected in Japan, but not here? Don't evade the question.

You know, you comment on these topics an awful lot, but do you even understand why people have a problem with sexualization?

Oh I understand. There is a group gamers & feminists who don't understand why sexualization exists to begin with, why it sells and want things to conform to their wishes and expectations. Fair enough, I get that.

Are you kidding me? Are you telling me that feminists - which includes ME - don't understand WHY sexualization exists? Why men like to look at sexualized women? Are you really really sure about this statement? Do you want to intellectually insult me?

Aren't you always arguing that women in fact don't deserve to be respected if the market - i.e. boys - doesn't want to see them respected? And aren't you kinda defending that an awful lot?

Not really : /
I don't really "defend" anything to be honest, I let market and consumer trends speak for themselves. I simply need to point at them
People throw around words like sexism and misogyny while not understanding that society itself is built on a foundation of NOT treating the genders 100% equally to each other. The entire foundation needs to change if you want to see a change in games. Media & entertainment is simply a tiny branch of society as a whole.

Okay, again: Are you telling me that feminists who complain about sexism in video games don't understand that society isn't treating genders equally and that this reflects in video games, being a product of said society?

And, no, media is not just a tiny branch. Media doesn't exist in a vacuum. Media is the product of the society which it produces, which naturally reflects on the media, and media in turn can have a heavy influence on how people think. Don't make a fool out of yourself and deny that.

Calling sexism in videogames a "problem" is not seeing the forest for the trees. Or more like not seeing the forest for the twigs and leaves.

No feminist complaining about sexism in video games will ever claim that this is the worst injustice against women in this world. However, seemingly in contrast to you, they generally understand that media doesn't exist in a vacuum and consequently... well, you know the drill.

But I guess a closing argument reminiscent of the fallacy of relative privation is a fitting ending for a post of such quality.

 

[Aaron Sylvester]

Why? Please enlighten me with your undoubtedly profound insights into the Japanese psyche and society.

Because it's so minor and irrelevant. Core changes in society will automatically reflect in everything else, it's pointless fussing over the symptoms and side-effects.

And as far as female gamers themselves are concerned?

Hmm good question. I guess I'll change my stance there - it's OK for female gamers to continue complaining, since I'm a firm believer of change by masses. If there are enough of them complaining then maybe something will happen, I can't influence that so it can happen at it's own pace *shrug*

First you're suggesting that there are many games with sexualized female characters because that's what the market wants, now you're suggesting that they don't exist... despite the market wanting them and that being all that matters? What is it now?

Yeah my mind keeps wandering back to the question of why this thread even exists. So far I have not seen very much from your side other than an automatic assumption "it's a problem" without mentioning any specifics. It's probably why Anita Sarkeesian hasn't released a video in the last 7-8 months, she's most likely realized how increasingly irrelevant her "analysis" was to the entire gaming industry today and struggling to find ways to keep things interesting.

So which demographic were you talking about that is supposedly respected in Japan, but not here? Don't evade the question.

Oh right - the male gamers who love sexualisation and fanservice in their games. I feel that westeners insult them a bit too easily, calling them immature sexist teenagers who just want masturbatory material. They get insulted despite being a completely valid demographic, and people see fanservice as something wrong that amounts to sexism.

Are you kidding me? Are you telling me that feminists - which includes ME - don't understand WHY sexualization exists? Why men like to look at sexualized women? Are you really really sure about this statement? Do you want to intellectually insult me?

Well to be fair, if you understand why it exists then you should understand why it will always be around.

Okay, again: Are you telling me that feminists who complain about sexism in video games don't understand that society isn't treating genders equally and that this reflects in video games, being a product of said society?

Feminists who complain about sexism in video games - no, they definitely don't understand how deeply rooted things are in society. If they understood that then they wouldn't even consider sexism in videogames an actual problem, they would understand it's merely a symptom. Complaining about symptoms is pointless.
It's like complaining about children in Africa not getting enough clean water - no shit, WHY are they in that situation to begin with? Their governments are corrupted to shit, no jobs, no economy, etc. Address that and everything else follows. By all means deliver clean water to save whatever lives can be saved, but understand that it's not going to change anything in the long run.

Wait, wrong example - feminists who complain about sexism in videogames aren't even getting to the "delivering" stage, all they can do is express their frustration.

And, no, media is not just a tiny branch. Media doesn't exist in a vacuum. Media is the product of the society which it produces, which naturally reflects on the media, and media in turn can have a heavy influence on how people think. Don't make a fool out of yourself and deny that.

Media has nowhere near as much a heavy influence on how people think compared to people's thinking influencing what happens in media. People create media, media doesn't create people. Don't make a fool out of yourself and deny that.

No feminist complaining about sexism in video games will ever claim that this is the worst injustice against women in this world.

Whoa whoa whoa, that is flat-out wrong. There are tons of feminists who purely concentrate on videogames and nothing else. It's why we have shitstorms to begin with about videogames even MENTIONING the topic of rape, or armor being too sexy. It's why this thread exists lol.

 

[sumanoskae]

Personally, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with designing a character for sex appeal.

 

[Aaron Sylvester]

Personally, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with designing a character for sex appeal.

People are complaining that TOO MANY female characters are designed for sex appeal. However they have not defined how many is "too many" for them, or even brought up examples to prove how prevalent it is. That's why they are getting nowhere.
For some people even 5 out of 100 games could be too many. Who knows : /

 

[Karadalis]

Take note: at least half of the games you have up here are made by Japanese developers who have an entirely different sexualization problem.

It's a problem to you. In Japan (or really most non-western nations) people don't consider it a problem. In fact it's accepted and embraced, which is the opposite of a problem.

Japan has no sexualisation problem, you are the one who has a problem with them sexualizing characters. Big difference. If there was a problem we would be reading about the japanese populace protesting against this certain type of portraial... but there is none.

So how about you stop projecting your own moral code onto a completly different culture with different values and simply accept that the japanese are what they are.

Well, if the Japanese themselves accept what they are, and stay the way they are, they won't be around for much longer, thanks to their extremely low birthrates. Which is a problem, wouldn't you agree? And young guys preferring to jack off to sexualized anime characters instead of hitting on real girls are partially responsible for that (but I guess not as much as the generally sexist Japanese society with its rigid traditional gender roles).

Low birth rates have nothing to do with sexualized characters in games/manga/anime... how do you even come to the conclusion to connect those two? I mean if that was the case then the US would be in decline too because more and more people get to fat.

It has more to do with their lifestyle of putting work first before their personal lives. Furthermore Japan is the country with the highest suicide rate amongst teenagers because the pressure is just so great on the kids to not screw up and succeed in school to get a good job that they cant take it, if happens over and over again that entire groups of kids meet up just to commit suicide. Furthermore living space is so expensive in most of japans cities (kinda given since in the end its an island nation) that several generations usually live under the same roof.

Heck i wouldnt be in the mood of baby making if my ma and pa and granny are in the next room playing scrabbles while the kids sleep in the other room and the walls are so paper thin you can hear every fart.

Nothing of that however has anything to do with sexy game characters. Seriously... the mindbending that is necesary to connect sexy video game characters to low birth rates is astounding to say the least.

You yourselfe gave the best example that has nothing to do with gaming/anime/manga: Women in japan dont want to give up their job so they dont want kids.

Where exactly does your "sexy Game/anime characters responsible for low birth numbers" figure in in all those examples?

Furthermore japan is a really crowded island and in most cities there isnt enough living space available.. so i highly doubt lower birth rates are actually a bad thing in the long run for them since there allready seem to be to many japanese for the island to begin with.

Honestly the gaming/anime culture is the most advanced and socialy accepting part of japan to begin with, with the greatest diversety and the least traditional stereotypes, thats why they are such a big thing in japan, cause everything ELSE is so backwards traditional and stuck in gender role mud.

In anime everyone including the girls can be the hero or villain, you have openly gay characters and drag queens in some of them and people of every race and/or social standing. Now personality of the characters and overall story are laden with stereotypes i give you that... guess all that diversety doesnt automatically mean excelent writing *shrugs*

 

[CloudAtlas]

Why? Please enlighten me with your undoubtedly profound insights into the Japanese psyche and society.

Because it's so minor and irrelevant. Core changes in society will automatically reflect in everything else, it's pointless fussing over the symptoms and side-effects.
(?)
Hmm good question. I guess I'll change my stance there - it's OK for female gamers to continue complaining, since I'm a firm believer of change by masses. If there are enough of them complaining then maybe something will happen, I can't influence that so it can happen at it's own pace *shrug*

First you say it's "pointless fussing over" sexism in games because it's "so minor and irrelevant", then you say "it's OK for female gamers to continue complaining". Interesting.

And isn't it upon every person playing video games themselves to decide what irks her/him, what aspects she/he finds important enough to be worth caring about? I mean, it's certainly not upon you, is it?

So which demographic were you talking about that is supposedly respected in Japan, but not here? Don't evade the question.

Oh right - the male gamers who love sexualisation and fanservice in their games. I feel that westeners insult them a bit too easily, calling them immature sexist teenagers who just want masturbatory material. They get insulted despite being a completely valid demographic, and people see fanservice as something wrong that amounts to sexism.

Well, the word fanservice has not without reason a negative ring to it. Often enough, giving fans what they want is not the same as what makes a world or story good. It's satisfying indulgence, a certain kind of indulgence, at the expense of other qualities.

And that's not even touching up the problem that giving those kinds of fans what they want (titillation) happens at the expense of what other kinds of fans want (not being objectified or not having their immersion destroyed, for example... you know always depending on the game in question).

Are you kidding me? Are you telling me that feminists - which includes ME - don't understand WHY sexualization exists? Why men like to look at sexualized women? Are you really really sure about this statement? Do you want to intellectually insult me?

Well to be fair, if you understand why it exists then you should understand why it will always be around.

Maybe. But we've come a long way already when it comes to treating women as the equals they are. Not that the gaming industry, and its audience, has been particularly helpful in this endeavour.

Okay, again: Are you telling me that feminists who complain about sexism in video games don't understand that society isn't treating genders equally and that this reflects in video games, being a product of said society?

Feminists who complain about sexism in video games - no, they definitely don't understand how deeply rooted things are in society. If they understood that then they wouldn't even consider sexism in videogames an actual problem, they would understand it's merely a symptom. Complaining about symptoms is pointless.

So complaining about the sexualized portrayal of female characters is pointless because it is only a symptom of a deeper problem? Didn't you just say that there is nothing wrong with this sexualized portrayal, hence that there is no problem?

Wait, wrong example - feminists who complain about sexism in videogames aren't even getting to the "delivering" stage, all they can do is express their frustration.

Them expressing their frustration gets other people to deliver, though. I'm getting tired of this, but: Didn't you just say earlier that "it's Ok for female [and other] gamers to continue complaining, since [you are] firm believer of changes by masses", i.e. that you believe that complaining about stuff is able to provoke change if enough people complain?

If you have to contradict yourself as often as you do in order to make an argument, that might be an indication that your argument is not very good to begin with. Just something to consider.

And, no, media is not just a tiny branch. Media doesn't exist in a vacuum. Media is the product of the society which it produces, which naturally reflects on the media, and media in turn can have a heavy influence on how people think. Don't make a fool out of yourself and deny that.

Media has nowhere near as much a heavy influence on how people think compared to people's thinking influencing what happens in media. People create media, media doesn't create people.

Oh well. If you say so. I'm sure you know better than all those people studying media and stuff for a living.

No feminist complaining about sexism in video games will ever claim that this is the worst injustice against women in this world.

Whoa whoa whoa, that is flat-out wrong. There are tons of feminists who purely concentrate on videogames and nothing else. It's why we have shitstorms to begin with about videogames even MENTIONING the topic of rape, or armor being too sexy. It's why this thread exists lol.

Someone complaining about one thing doesn't mean she/he cares about nothing else. If a feminist complains about video games, that is probably simply because this feminists happens to be a gamer and is thus personally invested in the matter.
I mean, you obviously care in some way about people complaining about stuff you apparently don't find worth complaining about, otherwise you wouldn't spend so much time debating it in forums. Should I take this as indication that you believe this is more important than the children dying in Africa? No? I thought so. Now do everyone a favour and don't apply your faulty logic to others.

 

[Aaron Sylvester]

First you say it's "pointless fussing over" sexism in games because it's "so minor and irrelevant", then you say "it's OK for female gamers to continue complaining". Interesting.

It's pointless fussing over sexism in videogames, it's minor and irrelevant, which is exactly why I'm OK with female gamers to continue complaining about it - because it doesn't really matter. Is that not making sense to you?

And isn't it upon every person playing video games themselves to decide what irks her/him, what aspects she/he finds important enough to be worth caring about? I mean, it's certainly not upon you, is it?

Exactly. I stand by decision by masses, consumer trends, etc.

Well, the word fanservice has not without reason a negative ring to it. Often enough, giving fans what they want is not the same as what makes a world or story good. It's satisfying indulgence, a certain kind of indulgence, at the expense of other qualities.

Which is perfectly profitable and therefore acceptable. There is no good or bad in fictional entertainment, there is only what sells and what doesn't.

And that's not even touching up the problem that giving those kinds of fans what they want (titillation) happens at the expense of what other kinds of fans want (not being objectified or not having their immersion destroyed, for example... you know always depending on the game in question).

Then those people are free to seek another game. It's impossible to satisfy everyone. As pointed out a thousand times already, it's nowhere near as prevalent as you make it out to be.

Maybe. But we've come a long way already when it comes to treating women as the equals they are. Not that the gaming industry, and its audience, has been particularly helpful in this endeavour.

Why should they be helpful? Women haven't done anything particularly note-worthy for gaming and technology as a whole. These fields are still completely and utterly dominated by males. Equal opportunity and equal rights, that's what women have so far. It doesn't determine how involved women decide to get with stuff like gaming and game development, and as far as I've seen it's not something most girls even think about becoming. Blame society, blame upbringing, blame whatever...that's how things are right now, that's reality.

So complaining about the sexualized portrayal of female characters is pointless because it is only a symptom of a deeper problem? Didn't you just say that there is nothing wrong with this sexualized portrayal, hence that there is no problem?

I have to keep calling it a "problem" when I'm talking to you so you can understand me. Just keep it in the back of your mind that I don't consider ANYTHING in fiction as a problem. Merely tropes and trends reflecting reality.

Them expressing their frustration gets other people to deliver, though. I'm getting tired of this, but: Didn't you just say earlier that "it's Ok for female [and other] gamers to continue complaining, since [you are] firm believer of changes by masses", i.e. that you believe that complaining about stuff is able to provoke change if enough people complain?

If enough people complain, yes. I do believe however that this particular trend will never go away because there is PLENTY of demand from people who enjoy it in their games.

If you have to contradict yourself as often as you do in order to make an argument, that might be an indication that your argument is not very good to begin with. Just something to consider.

You're the one constantly trying to find contradictions where they don't exist. My thought process is extremely simple FYI, nothing particularly contradictory or "deep" about it.

Oh well. If you say so. I'm sure you know better than all those people studying media and stuff for a living.

That's what they want to do for a living, good on them. Relevant how?

Someone complaining about one thing doesn't mean she/he cares about nothing else. If a feminist complains about video games, that is probably simply because this feminists happens to be a gamer and is thus personally invested in the matter.
I mean, you obviously care in some way about people complaining about stuff you apparently don't find worth complaining about, otherwise you wouldn't spend so much time debating it in forums. Should I take this as indication that you believe this is more important than the children dying in Africa? No? I thought so. Now do everyone a favour and don't apply your faulty logic to others.

Hmm you're right in that sense - I kinda AM spending way too much time debating this here, far more than what the topic is worth. A bunch of others here hold a similar stance to mine so I'll let them continue.

 

[CloudAtlas]

So complaining about the sexualized portrayal of female characters is pointless because it is only a symptom of a deeper problem? Didn't you just say that there is nothing wrong with this sexualized portrayal, hence that there is no problem?

I have to keep calling it a "problem" when I'm talking to you so you can understand me. Just keep it in the back of your mind that I don't consider ANYTHING in fiction as a problem. Merely tropes and trends reflecting reality.

A statement made from a position of privilege I presume.

Maybe. But we've come a long way already when it comes to treating women as the equals they are. Not that the gaming industry, and its audience, has been particularly helpful in this endeavour.

Why should they be helpful? Women haven't done anything particularly note-worthy for gaming and technology as a whole.

Women have done nothing noteworthy for technology and are thus not deserving of equal treatment by men involved with technology. Okay.

The entirety of your statement here speaks volumes about your attitude. I'm just gonna let this sink without further commenting on it.

 

[Karadalis]

So complaining about the sexualized portrayal of female characters is pointless because it is only a symptom of a deeper problem? Didn't you just say that there is nothing wrong with this sexualized portrayal, hence that there is no problem?

I have to keep calling it a "problem" when I'm talking to you so you can understand me. Just keep it in the back of your mind that I don't consider ANYTHING in fiction as a problem. Merely tropes and trends reflecting reality.

A statement made from a position of privilege I presume.

Maybe. But we've come a long way already when it comes to treating women as the equals they are. Not that the gaming industry, and its audience, has been particularly helpful in this endeavour.

Why should they be helpful? Women haven't done anything particularly note-worthy for gaming and technology as a whole.

Women have done nothing noteworthy for technology and are thus not deserving of equal treatment by men involved with technology. Okay.

The entirety of your statement here speaks volumes about your attitude. I'm just gonna let this sink without further commenting on it.

And you seem to think that you speak for all women aparantly.

Have you ever been to a gaming or RPG convention lately? Have you seen what most female cosplayers dress as?

The notion that women far and wide actually object sexy/sexualized characters is just something made up by wanna be feminist bloggers.

Or do you really believe that these cosplayers in their sexy outfits where forced by male gamers to dress up like that?

Fact is there are plenty of women who enjoy sexy female characters and even dress up as them... furthermore people like you are allways only focusing on the idea that somehow a sexy female character in gaming is automatically reduced to her boobs when infact most of these characters (atleast in the west, asian games didnt had any influence on those for a long while) are usually very complex and interesting. (Viconia from baldurs gate 2 comes to mind, an agressive sexual drow wich has a suprisingly deep character, and this is an example from almost a decade ago!)

There is nothing wrong with sexy aslong as there is a personality to go with, and in most western games there is... same goes for most asian titles nowadays.

All these decisions to not make female chars the main focus on boxarts nad as protagonists simply stems from a target audience issue. Female gamers aparantly simply dont buy enough AAA games to varant marketing pointed specifically at them. Most female gamers dont even play triple A titles.. wich leaves the few that do kinda in the dust but thats how life goes.

 

[CloudAtlas]

And you seem to think that you speak for all women aparantly.

That would be rather presumptuous seeing that I am not even one.

Have you ever been to a gaming or RPG convention lately? Have you seen what most female cosplayers dress as?

The notion that women far and wide actually object sexy/sexualized characters is just something made up by wanna be feminist bloggers.

I'm not sure whether cosplayers are a representative sample of the whole population of potential and actual female gamers, but leaving that aside, I'm not sure if feminists far and wide actually have this notion.
But evidently a certain share of female gamers is not happy about it, by their own accord. And many male gamers, like myself, aren't either.

furthermore people like you are allways only focusing on the idea that somehow a sexy female character in gaming is automatically reduced to her boobs when infact most of these characters (atleast in the west, asian games didnt had any influence on those for a long while) are usually very complex and interesting. (Viconia from baldurs gate 2 comes to mind, an agressive sexual drow wich has a suprisingly deep character, and this is an example from almost a decade ago!)

Uhm, if a developer draws attention to a female character's boobs by emphasizing said boobs (often not very subtly), you can hardly complain when the viewer's attention wanders exactly where the developer lead it.

 

[nomotog_v1legacy]

Personally, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with designing a character for sex appeal.

This is true. Sexy isn't bad. It's just sexy. For me, sexy becomes a problem when it starts being so present thatit inserts itself where it has no business being. You know like when a undead can't look like a undead because it's more important that they have a body you can ogle (yes I do have an example of this), or when you're out cutting holes in armor because it's more important that your knight looks sexy then to look like a knight (people have tons of examples of this).

 

[yundex]

If you have to contradict yourself as often as you do in order to make an argument, that might be an indic you apparently don't find worth complaining about, otherwise you wouldn't spend so much time debating it in forums. Should I take this as indication that you believe this is more important than the children dying in Africa? No? I thought so. Now do everyone a favour and don't apply your faulty logic to others.

Hmm you're right in that sense - I kinda AM spending way too much time debating this here, far more than what the topic is worth. A bunch of others here hold a similar stance to mine so I'll let them continue.

I feel ya, I just have to say that you have the patience of a saint with these people. Me and my wife both understand that men and women are not equal by any stretch, like the feminists and beta males would love people to believe. Not only is she different physically but she differs in almost every way she relates to the world around her. This isn't a bad thing, it's the sole reason for those god damn butterflies. And while she may not be a gamer, I asked if she gave a shit and to no ones surprise I get a "no". Anecdotal evidence for the win, but I still count the negative "re: Sarkeesian" videos by females 10 to 1, and I still sit here, waiting for all of those objectified non feminist gamer girls to show me the light.

I'm just rambling at this point, but I suppose I could ask some more women for their opinion at work today.

 

[sumanoskae]

Personally, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with designing a character for sex appeal.

This is true. Sexy isn't bad. It's just sexy. For me, sexy becomes a problem when it starts being so present thatit inserts itself where it has no business being. You know like when a undead can't look like a undead because it's more important that they have a body you can ogle (yes I do have an example of this), or when you're out cutting holes in armor because it's more important that your knight looks sexy then to look like a knight (people have tons of examples of this).

But this is still an important distinction; sex appeal isn't the issue, if every character was designed to asexual it would be just as problematic. The overabundance of sexualization is a symptom, not the disease itself.

The reason that developers keep cutting holes in knight armor is because they've convinced themselves that only certain kinds of people play their games and that those people will be more likely to buy their games if they design their characters a certain way.

I don't think their assessment is accurate; the gaming community is growing in diversity. Besides, I am myself a heterosexual man and I know I'm not any more likely to buy a game because it has hot chicks in it, nor do I think anyone else is. This isn't the 80's anymore, pornographic material is readily available to anyone with an internet connection; I can't imagine that any significant amount of people will spend $60 on what they could have for free.

The problem is just greed and good old fashioned bad business; product over art.

 

[nomotog_v1legacy]

Personally, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with designing a character for sex appeal.

This is true. Sexy isn't bad. It's just sexy. For me, sexy becomes a problem when it starts being so present thatit inserts itself where it has no business being. You know like when a undead can't look like a undead because it's more important that they have a body you can ogle (yes I do have an example of this), or when you're out cutting holes in armor because it's more important that your knight looks sexy then to look like a knight (people have tons of examples of this).

But this is still an important distinction; sex appeal isn't the issue, if every character was designed to asexual it would be just as problematic. The overabundance of sexualization is a symptom, not the disease itself.

The reason that developers keep cutting holes in knight armor is because they've convinced themselves that only certain kinds of people play their games and that those people will be more likely to buy their games if they design their characters a certain way.

I don't think their assessment is accurate; the gaming community is growing in diversity. Besides, I am myself a heterosexual man and I know I'm not any more likely to buy a game because it has hot chicks in it, nor do I think anyone else is. This isn't the 80's anymore, pornographic material is readily available to anyone with an internet connection; I can't imagine that any significant amount of people will spend $60 on what they could have for free.

The problem is just greed and good old fashioned bad business; product over art.

A good deal of characters are designed to be asexual and that is kind of a problem. I thought about talking about this in my last post, but cut it for time. Well we may have a lot of characters in sexy armor. The amount of characters who are sexual is much much smaller. It's often a weird paradox with a lot of these characters. They will look sexy well being almost militantly asexual.

And ya the other stuff I agree with, but I will add I think that that thinking has kind of backfired. If I see a sexy picture on the cover of a game. That makes me less likely to buy it because I have expedience in how a lot of bad games use to use sex aggressive appeal as a cover for being bad.

 

[yundex]

You know what is hilarious about the SJW-Tumblr brigade? They are all fat and ugly and that is why they are pissed off feminists. Want proof? Go to any website allowing comments with a photo of a female cosplayer who is fat and/or ugly. Notice that the SJW-Tumblr brigade will praise her. Now I want you to look for a photo of a hot attractive cosplayer. Notice how suddenly the SJW-Tumblr brigade will then say crap like "You are whoring yourself for the patriarchy! Gender traitor!"

I've always held this thought in the back of my mind as well. Ever since I was child, i've wondered why feminists are almost always exactly what you've described. I remember my dad telling me that when he was growing up, feminists were telling him that they were pissed off because men weren't interested in them, and hated the fact that most women didn't have to work. One day I will stop with these anecdotes, and provide an interesting article about women who want to go topless in NY.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-life/10880647/Topless-women-campaign-to-Free-The-Nipple-why-on-earth-do-women-want-to-walk-around-topless-in-public.html