Sexy Shelob...why? Just why?

[Metalix Knightmare]

Snip

No, they just look creepy as fuck. I mean seriously, would you EVER trust a man that looks like this?

http://www.rpgfan.com/pics/smtn/ess-051.jpg

He looks like a goddamn James Bond villain.

How do you know he has a weakness for attractive women? There was a grand total of two in the first game and one only lasted for five minutes. What, because he was married and has a dead wife he has a weakness for attractive women? That's making Talion out to be an even more one dimensional character than I thought he was, and I thought he was a pretty one dimensional character. And I'm sorry, runaway slaves? I admit it's been awhile since I played Shadow of Mordor, but I missed the part where Talion sat down the escaped slaves and gave them all story time on his tragic backstory. And Shelob can conduct interrogations on top of shape shifting? Sure, why not. Anymore powers you want to give her that blatantly contradict her character? If an escaped slave made his way into Shelob's lair, she wouldn't interrogate him. She's just eat him. I have to say, there's around half a dozen "ifs" we have to go through in order to make this situation halfway plausible, each pushing things further into the absurd than the last. IF Talion has a weakness for women, IF Shelob knew this, IF someone learned about it, IF they made their way into Shelob's cave, and IF she had a means and a desire to get it out of him. Oh, and Shelob doesn't even vaguely look like Talion's wife. If she did, we'd probably get something more like this.

https://youtu.be/5rzCRucQzeY?t=2m19s

There's people being stupid and then there's just being flat out braindead. If Talion falls for this, he's officially in the latter category.

If that's the case, then this can all be officially filed under "a waste of my fucking time." Because what would be the fucking point then?

I'm sure to you, I do. Because I've actually talked to women about sexuality, their sexuality, and they seem to disagree with you on that one. I'll take their views, the views of the actual women who know more about female sexuality than you do, over yours. Then again, they don't seem to equate female sexuality with tits in video games, nor do they seem to think that pointing out female characters are often the victims of tired and cliched writing, on top of mainly being sources of fanservice, is against female sexuality. Hell, they agree with me on my criticisms. The actual women whose sexuality you say I have a problem with. Oh the lootboxes, if only I could care about two things at once, oh wait, I can and I do.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.1004674-Middle-Earth-Shadow-of-War-Will-Sell-Loot-Boxes-as-Microtransactions#24081181

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.1004674-Middle-Earth-Shadow-of-War-Will-Sell-Loot-Boxes-as-Microtransactions#24081228

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.1004674-Middle-Earth-Shadow-of-War-Will-Sell-Loot-Boxes-as-Microtransactions#24081285

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.1004674-Middle-Earth-Shadow-of-War-Will-Sell-Loot-Boxes-as-Microtransactions#24083122

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.1004674-Middle-Earth-Shadow-of-War-Will-Sell-Loot-Boxes-as-Microtransactions#24083235

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.1004674-Middle-Earth-Shadow-of-War-Will-Sell-Loot-Boxes-as-Microtransactions#24083271

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.1004674-Middle-Earth-Shadow-of-War-Will-Sell-Loot-Boxes-as-Microtransactions?page=2#24083433

Don't insult my intelligence. More than you already have that is. I'm not so simple that I'm incapable of caring about more than one thing at a time. For the record, me complaining about microtransactions has not stopped me from caring about the vandalized Holocaust memorial in Boston.

It's not about her showing skin. It's about them taking a giant man eating spider and deciding that she needed to be an attractive women that's easy on the eyes. Seriously, how fucking lazy and unimaginative are writers to keep coming up with shit like this? It's a tired and boring cliche, and now they're just going out of their way to crowbar it in, in a situation where it REALLY doesn't make any sense, and you need around fifteen contrivances to make it work. For fuck's sake, games can do better than this kind of hack writing.

EVERYONE looks creepy as fuck in that era of Shin Megami Games. Honestly, I kind of miss it.

As for how I know he has a weakness for attractive women? The fact that he was grooving for that lady in the first game to the point that the ghost had to come in and basically tell him "dude, your family, including your wife, died like last week and you're basically a zombie. Knock it off."

Also, games in general are a waste of time. That's half their point. Letting you kill time in an entertaining way. The same can also be said of all media. Help you kill time and be entertained while doing so.

Also, I've talked to women about their sexuality too. More than a few of them honestly LOVE seeing and playing characters like Bayonetta and even Ivy. Granted, some of them were from the older schools of feminist thought where women actually being able to show they are in fact sexual beings was awesome, but then you had a couple of lesbian acquaintances who honestly drool over them more than I do, and then there are women who just love the idea of being a, in their own words, "a badass, sexy *****." It's basically their power fantasy.

Also, I never said you couldn't focus on more than one thing. Just that whenever fanservice and sexuality comes up, I can almost time the EXACT moment you'll come barging in.

And you're right. Games CAN do better writing than that. Planescape Torment and KOTOR 2 showed that off quite well. You know what else can do better writing as well? Movies, books, TV shows, plays, comics, and so on. I'm sorry to be the one to tell you this Er, but good writing in ANY media tends to be the exception and not the norm, particularly when it comes to big expensive blockbusters.

As an aside, this actually isn't NEARLY as lazy as you claim it is. Lazy, would've been keeping Shelob as a Spider that does little more than eat everything and lay eggs. With this though? Now they have to give her personality and motivations. She would've been easier to write as the spider.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

Which kind of doesn't really fit in with your claim that he looks non threatening.

And that translates to him being thick enough to fall for an obviously evil woman trying to trick him...how?

I don't consider fun to be a waste of time. Having my time being used up by a generic seduction plotline that will go nowhere? That is a waste of my time, because it is neither fun, nor engaging.

And what do you know, the women I talked to liked playing Bayoneta too, because it turns out Bayoneta isn't the same kind of writing that we're talking about right now, nor is Bayoneta a symbol of the style or quality of writing of women in most games. Seriously, most of them can't hold a candle to her. And if we're talking about "sexy badass bitches" I really don't think this take of Shelob is what they had in mind. And the women I talk to are of the school of thought of "sexualized women are fine, but can we please get some variety? And when a woman is sexualized, can it match her personality?" Hell, my female best's friend's favorite game, which she feels does a good job of having variety in female characters, is Suikoden. Which has characters like this.

Spoiler

https://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/suikoden/images/a/ac/Oulan01.gif/revision/latest?cb=20100226040742

https://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/suikoden/images/c/cb/Hanna01.gif/revision/latest?cb=20100228140950

https://yurination.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/kisara.jpg

And like this

Spoiler

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/suikoden/images/3/37/S3_Chris_Lightfellow.png/revision/latest?cb=20140709163528

https://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/suikoden/images/2/22/Lorelai-1.gif/revision/latest?cb=20101216043717

https://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/suikoden/images/6/65/Queen01.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20100408003652

Note the lack of a stupid looking breastplate on the silver haired one. Also, the redhead with the muscles, Oulan, fits the bill of a sexy, badass ***** much more than 90% of sexualized women in gaming. And she's not even a *****, she's honestly pretty laid back and nice.

Then why the fuck did you bring it up? Oh, when a topic I care about comes up I get involved. How fucking dare I! I can't help but notice you tend to pop up in those conversations too. You know what that proves? The exact same thing it proves when I pop up. Fuck. All.

Good writing tends to be the exception? Oh, so you admit this isn't good writing. Thank you. Also, now that I have been uninformed that good writing tends to be the exception, let me tell you how my attitude towards bad writing has changed. It has not. I call out shit writing when I see it, and the fact that the bar is low overall means fuck all to me.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

Snip

Which kind of doesn't really fit in with your claim that he looks non threatening.

And that translates to him being thick enough to fall for an obviously evil woman trying to trick him...how?

I don't consider fun to be a waste of time. Having my time being used up by a generic seduction plotline that will go nowhere? That is a waste of my time, because it is neither fun, nor engaging.

And what do you know, the women I talked to liked playing Bayoneta too, because it turns out Bayoneta isn't the same kind of writing that we're talking about write now, nor is Bayoneta a symbol of the style or quality of writing of women in most games. Seriously, most of them can't hold a candle to her. And if we're talking about "sexy badass bitches" I really don't think this take of Shelob is what they had in mind. And the women I talk to are of the school of thought of "sexualized women are fine, but can we please get some variety? And when a woman is sexualized, can it match her personality?" Hell, my female best's friend's favorite game, which she feels does a good job of having variety in female characters, is Suikoden. Which has characters like this.

Spoiler

https://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/suikoden/images/a/ac/Oulan01.gif/revision/latest?cb=20100226040742

https://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/suikoden/images/c/cb/Hanna01.gif/revision/latest?cb=20100228140950

https://yurination.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/kisara.jpg

And like this

Spoiler

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/suikoden/images/3/37/S3_Chris_Lightfellow.png/revision/latest?cb=20140709163528

https://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/suikoden/images/2/22/Lorelai-1.gif/revision/latest?cb=20101216043717

https://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/suikoden/images/6/65/Queen01.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20100408003652

Note the lack of a stupid looking breastplate on the silver haired one. Also, the redhead with the muscles, Oulan, fits the bill of a sexy, badass ***** much more than 90% of sexualized women in gaming. And she's not even a *****, she's honestly pretty laid back and nice.

Then why the fuck did you bring it up? Oh, when a topic I care about comes up I get involved. How fucking dare I! I can't help but notice you tend to pop up in those conversations too. You know what that proves? The exact same thing it proves when I pop up. Fuck. All.

Good writing tends to be the exception? Oh, so you admit this isn't good writing. Thank you. Also, now that I have been uninformed that good writing tends to be the exception, let me tell you how my attitude towards bad writing has changed. It has not. I call out shit writing when I see it, and the fact that the bar is low overall means fuck all to me.

Actually, it doesn't hurt my claim at all. Again, EVERY character looks like that. Even the ones ostensibly on your side. He doesn't look particularly threatening when compared to literally every other character.

It translates into he'd be more easily manipulated by an attractive woman than he would anything else. It's apparent that he doesn't think as clearly as he should with attractive ladies than he does with others.

Just because you're having fun doesn't mean it's not a waste of time. You could be doing something more productive such as studying new subjects to help you with your job, or gathering litter or something like that. If you have fun while doing something constructive then awesome. Doesn't change the fact that when you're gaming you're not doing something to better yourself or your community. You're just killing time and having fun while doing it.

We already have a lot of variety with female character designs Er, fanservicey designs tend to take center stage more due to the primary audience for a lot of games being men, but that doesn't stop a lot of modest designs from mingling in so I don't know why you get so bent out of shape over it. Also, that last outfit in the second group strikes me as pretty bad. She's got pants that looks like it doubles as a shirt. What even is that? It's too baggy to be a leotard. What's with that grey vest even? OH WAIT! The pants and shirt are separate colors! Geeze, I'm colorblind! Still want to know the point of the vest though.

And I bring it up because, as I've said before, I've met Nuns who don't get as bent out of shape about this subject as much as you do. It's honestly more than a little concerning. And the only reason I pop up as much as you do is because I actually get a real kick out of these conversations of ours. I also have to wonder WHY an overabundance of sexy women in games bothers you so much.

Plus, I have to do SOMETHING to entertain myself before my work shift starts, and I don't want to get REALLY into a game only to have it interrupted.

Also, at no point did I ever claim this was good writing. Outside of RPGs, I don't really expect much of writing in games. Also, I'd go so far as to say Tolkien's original writing for Shelob is worse writing than this. It hints that there's more to her than just being a big spider, but never does much with it. (Breaking a cardinal writing rule there, show, don't tell.)

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

So basically it's the same line of reasoning you pull with bad writing, the bar overall has been set pretty low.

This still requires him to have zero self awareness and to be as dumb as a sack of hammers. I mean, the Wrath is flat out telling him not to trust Shelob, and the Wrath has done a lot more to earn Talion's trust than be easy on the eyes.

I beg to differ. And none of this changes the fact that a stupid, asinine, badly written sub plot that goes nowhere is not fun, nor is it engaging.

You know, every time someone brings up the weak and tired excuse that men are the primary audience for games, I roll my eyes. Remember the stereotype in the 90s and early 2000s that nerds were lonely virgins who were easily tantalized by titties? Can we please not use that stereotype as a defense? The idea that men are so easily enticed by tits and that that will easily pull us in (the old sex sells defense) really sells our gender short. Yeah, some modest designs, but way too many over sexualized characters are thrown in in situations where it just doesn't fit, and many cases often contradicts their character. Because I actually give a fuck about the quality of games, is that too alien a thought for you to understand? Frankly, I don't get why you get so bent out of shape about me having an opinion you don't like. If I wanted to not deal with oversexualized women in gaming, I'd have to be very selective in what games I bought. If you wanted to not deal with my opinion, you'd just have to slap me on your ignore list. So what's the deal? And the fact that you don't personally care for Lorelai's design really doesn't change the point that I made about Suikoden's approach to women...which you pretty much glazed over. Along with my response to your Bayonetta defense.

Maybe you should stop stereotyping nuns. I went to Catholic school from first grade through eighth, and they're pretty chill people. It wasn't Vice Principle Jane or Principle Loraine, it was Sister Jane and Sister Loraine. You say "I've met nuns that aren't as bent out of shape" like it means anything. They don't act like sex is teh evils anymore. And I've already covered this up above.

Doesn't really seem like you're having a good time.

Well good for you, having low standards for games. I don't. I know they can do better and I don't settle for sub par. Oh, there's more to her than being a giant spider, instead we get stock seductress #1249. Hey, if we're getting something else other than a giant spider, can we get something that's actually more interesting than a giant spider? Because despite your claim that she was "just" a giant spider, Peter Jackson's take on something that was "just" a giant spider had a hell of a lot more impact on me and audiences around the world than this boring and unoriginal mess.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

(Breaking a cardinal writing rule there, show, don't tell.)

There's a lesser known corollary for creating mystery and horror: imply, don't show.

Unfortunately, that doesn't really work out so when when claiming that a giant spider monster is more intelligent than the average monster.

snip

Eh, I'd continue on, but honestly I'm running out of steam here. Believe it or not Er, I actually do enjoy our conversations. It's always good to make sure one isn't forming a bubble around one's self.

I do have one question left in me though. Those women you brought up before that you said hated Lady Shelob, how many of them were actually planning on buying the game?

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

I do have one question left in me though. Those women you brought up before that you said hated Lady Shelob, how many of them were actually planning on buying the game?

Out of curiosity, are we talking "straw that broke the camel's back" or "single issue voter" sort of stuff?

Because, personally speaking, sexy Shelob's done nothing to entice me into buying a lootcrate enhanced single-player open-world game with bolted-on multiplayer produced by WB. If the writing turns out to be stellar, and roughly 10x more clever than it's looking, I could see picking it up after reviews.

Or are we going for an "if you aren't the target audience, you shouldn't criticize it" sort of thing?

 

[Erttheking]

(Breaking a cardinal writing rule there, show, don't tell.)

There's a lesser known corollary for creating mystery and horror: imply, don't show.

Unfortunately, that doesn't really work out so when when claiming that a giant spider monster is more intelligent than the average monster.

snip

Eh, I'd continue on, but honestly I'm running out of steam here. Believe it or not Er, I actually do enjoy our conversations. It's always good to make sure one isn't forming a bubble around one's self.

I do have one question left in me though. Those women you brought up before that you said hated Lady Shelob, how many of them were actually planning on buying the game?

My best friend actually did buy the first game and didn't complain about it outside of saying it was short and did seem interested until this and the microtransactions. As for the others? Haven't asked.

 

[Erttheking]

Haven't read the whole thread but in case it hasn't been posted yet, looks like this is the best explanation for now -

Spoiler

https://dvsgaming.org/monolith-explains-why-shelob-is-a-woman-in-middle-earth-shadow-of-war/

Oh and don't forget

Spoiler

 

[Kerg3927]

Of course, we also don't have a history of gay dudes torturing and murdering straight people for being straight. That kind of context matters.

And so that history gives anyone a free pass to hate straight people indiscriminately and insult them all they want without any backlash? Indiscriminate hate is indiscriminate hate, and it's wrong, period.

So everything is a zero sum game? In order for some people to be happy, others have to be made unhappy?

I wouldn't use the word "happy" because a quick scan of the internet or news and it's pretty clear that nobody is "happy," as in content with their situation. Everyone is always wanting more. More attention, more acknowledgement, more wealth, more representation... just more of something. And yes, the typical way to get "more" is to take it from someone else.

A multibillion dollar industry like video games can only afford to cater to one very specific market?

Never said that, but it is perfectly understandable if they place a greater emphasis on catering to the larger portions of their market, with the goal being to maximize sales. That's just business sense and common sense.

Minorities should just accept that they never will be the equals of those in power?

Depends upon what you mean by equal. Equal under the law, as in everyone has the same rights under the law? I think that's achievable, and has been mostly achieved in the West over the past century.

Equal as in wealth? No. Wealth is probably never going to equally redistributed.

Equal in government representation? No. There will never be a Congress or a Parliament in which there is an equal number representing every race and sexual orientation. Some group is always going to have more votes and thus more power. It can become more representative, but probably not equal.

Equal as in having a say in video game content? No. See prior question about the market. Developers are generally going to cater more to the groups with the most wallets, and less to groups with fewer wallets.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Of course, we also don't have a history of gay dudes torturing and murdering straight people for being straight. That kind of context matters.

And so that history gives anyone a free pass to hate straight people indiscriminately and insult them all they want without any backlash? Indiscriminate hate is indiscriminate hate, and it's wrong, period.

Wait, who's hating on dudebros? They're lovely people, just catered too maybe a tad much. Though I do feel I've done them a disservice, when it's the "change is censorship, even when it's three pixels on underboob and done for logistical reasons" crowd I generally have a problem with. Dudebros are ultimately more chill.

A multibillion dollar industry like video games can only afford to cater to one very specific market?

Never said that, but it is perfectly understandable if they place a greater emphasis on catering to the larger portions of their market, with the goal being to maximize sales. That's just business sense and common sense.

There are currently more adult women in the games market than teenaged boys, so if the market could shift toward that any day now, that'd be great.

Writing for a specific stereotype of teen boy for decades has led videogame writing to be in the dire straights it's in.