Shadowrun Returns, aka, when a game is made by graphic artists...

GabeZhul

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I got around to finally try out Shadowrun Returns, and boy, am I conflicted...

For a little background: At first I didn't know this was a Kickstarter game, as I simply don't follow that particular scene. In fact, I have only learned of the game's existence from the review here on the Escapist.

On the other hand, I am quite familiar with the P&P Shadowrun game. I myself didn't get a chance to play it but I read one of the source-books (I don't know which edition) and I spent quite some time rummaging through the equipment catalogs just for the sheer novelty of it.
I also disliked the way P&P systems had been adopted into real time gameplay in most if not all CRPGs of the genre, so when I heard that it would have proper turn based combat with cover mechanics and hit-chances like X-COM, my interest suddenly spiked.

Still, I waited for a few weeks so that there would be a few patches out, but then I finally got around to playing it a few days ago... and I am somewhat disappointed, and I think I know the reason why: This game is made by artists. As in, it has great writing, the 2D art is great, the character portraits are actively fun to look at... but because of sub-par programming and corner-cuts, the game simply lacks the spark that would make it really good.

Now then, my problems in bullet points:

-No manual saves:
I simply don't get this. Last time I checked, it's 2013, and this is a linear but generally expansive RPG with long dialog trees... and it only uses autosaves? Personally I didn't have much problem with it, but I have heard people losing up to an hour of progress for a single unlucky critical hit at the very end of a level, and I myself had times when I had to get up from my machine from extended periods and couldn't turn off the game because the auto-save was behind me by half an hour of intense battles I sure as hell didn't want to redo.

Apparently this was a budget and/or time issue, but then I looked around and it turned out that someone apparently managed to implement manual saves using only the editor's functions, so there's that.

Also, I found it kind of funny how they only just, with ver. 1.0.4 managed to fix the savegame-bloating that was plaguing the game from day 1...

-Crappy cyberware:
Honestly, this hurts me the most. The most important thing about Shadowrun for me was the concept of switching out body parts of cybertech and customize the hell out of said tech. In this game, however, you not only doesn't get to customize your mechanical arms or legs, the selection of the ones you can use is also extremely limited and generally weak.

Then there is the issue of the Essence rounding (for the uninitiated, Essence is the value representing your spiritual integrity in the setting, the lower it gets the more you became like a machine and lose your soul, and if it were to reach zero it would mean you are practically dead). The problem is, in this game the system always rounds your remaining Essence downwards, meaning that if you start the game as Decker or a Rigger who have a datajack on the get-go, an implant that has a 0.5 essence cost, then you will only have 5 instead of the standard 6, limiting your cyberware options even further.

Also, for some reason I cannot even fathom, instead of a modifier the game applies the rounding to your character's core Essence value instead, meaning that the rounded values are lost forever.

This means cyberware, practically THE core component of Shadowrun, mostly useless except for maybe two late-game implants for a very few specific builds, which is simply inexcusable.

-Crappy equipment:
Once again, take a look at the source-books. The P&P game had hundreds of weapons, not to speak about the neat little things a creative gamer can use to wreak some havoc (loading DMSO into squirt-guns and water-balloons, anyone?). Instead we have six tiers for every weapon type that get added one after the other as you complete the main questline (railroading much?) and instead of mix-and-match armor sets we have simple "costumes". Words cannot explain how disappointed I got once I realized this.

-Rough edges:
This game is unfinished, plain and simple, and the further you go in, the more obvious this becomes. For starters, there are two skill-trees that give no special abilities or bonuses beyond simple stat-increases (even though their description says so), all weapons have the same range, limited cyberware-option, linear structure with no open world or free roaming (again, in a CRPG, which is practically the hotbed for this feature), uninspired level design, etc.

Also, as far as I have gathered, some of these issues are related to the game being developed for tablets. I got this info from some modders complaining about how the much toted editor gimps a large number of options so that the game could run on tablets, so I guess I might as well add "botched editor" to the list of issues.

That said, it is not a bad game. At least visually it is very, very appealing and the 2D artists really did a marvelous job, but even the art has its hiccups (the spell and special effects are on Baldur's Gate level, and in this case comparison to that game is decidedly not a good thing).

I would say it's worth a look if only for the relatively interesting core plot of the game and some really fun and likable characters (Mr. Kuwe, the huge, well mannered and soft-spoken troll bouncer immediately became one of my favorites in this game), but it lacks in so many aspects that I would rather call the game "Shadowrun Ultra Lite". It's okay, tasty even, but it doesn't fill you up at all and just leaves you even hungrier for the main dish that will probably never come.

Hopefully the modding community will remedy some of these issues, but still, a bit of a let-down.
 

Smooth Operator

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Shadowrun Lite is probably a fair assessment, or "Budget RPG" to make it more general.
You really can't get that far with polish when you are working with so little funds, sure a garage dev might stretch it because he gets no paycheck but a company does have it's wages to pay.

Hopefully mods will go big with this one so I can some day finish the damn thing without pulling my hair out.
 

GabeZhul

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Mr.K. said:
Shadowrun Lite is probably a fair assessment, or "Budget RPG" to make it more general.
You really can't get that far with polish when you are working with so little funds, sure a garage dev might stretch it because he gets no paycheck but a company does have it's wages to pay.

Hopefully mods will go big with this one so I can some day finish the damn thing without pulling my hair out.
This is part of the reason why I say this game was made by graphics designers instead of programmers. I don't know much about the development history of the game, but just by looking at the polished graphics and the general lack of polish that went into everything else and I think I can make an educated guess about where most of the modest amount funds they got have gone...
 

LookingGlass

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As someone who finished the game yesterday, I can't really disagree with any of your points. That said, I very much enjoyed my 12.5 hour playthrough.

I played on normal and only died twice by my count, so the lack of manual saving didn't really affect me. I was a shotgun-wielding mage and spent all my points on those two categories (and body/health), and I found the number of and variety of available spells and shotguns adequate but not exceptional. So I guess I sidestepped some of the issues with equipment and skills (I wanted to put points into decking, but saw no reason to since they always had to provide you with someone who could do it in case you couldn't). I tried to install some cyberware the first time I visited a merchant, but it gave me a warning about how it would kill my magic abilities so I didn't touch the stuff the rest of the game. Other than about an hour of the SNES game, this is my first Shadowrun experience, so I wasn't too bothered by not getting to customise all this stuff. I just wanted to play through a cyberpunk story, with how rare games in that genre are.

I knew from other internetters that it was a compeltely linear RPG when I started it, so I was prepared for that and at the time that was all I wanted. I backed it and followed its development so I knew that this was a game produced in a small amount of time by a small team. I think as long as you go into the game realising that it's a $20 game for a reason, there's plenty of fun to be had.

The only things that really bothered me were:
- At the very end one of my mercs died and I couldn't figure out how to use the Doc Wagon card to revive him.
- Why the hell am I stuck in turn-based combat mode (instead of exploration mode) after all of the enemies are dead? There were a bunch of places where this happened and it just slows you down needlessly.

These guys got $1.8M to fund their game. Wasteland 2 got $2.9M and Project Eternity got $3.9M. I'll be very interested to see the differences in scope between each of the three once they're all released.
 

Darks63

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I hear you on the auto save only thing. It makes the game less of a pick up and place as you have time type title. When playing i can't say when i would be able to stop playing which i don't like especially if something comes up.


Though with the modding and more to be added i hope it can grow into something really cool to play here hopin.
LookingGlass said:
The only things that really bothered me were:
- At the very end one of my mercs died and I couldn't figure out how to use the Doc Wagon card to revive him.
- Why the hell am I stuck in turn-based combat mode (instead of exploration mode) after all of the enemies are dead? There were a bunch of places where this happened and it just slows you down needlessly.
The item use in combat was confusing and the tutorials don't cover it at all. The stuck in combat thing was usually due to their being one enemy left somewhere in the level and it not letting you break combat which is a bad feature should work more like the old fallouts. The place it is really annoying is in the matrix where even after you kill everything you have to turn base run to jack out rather than just jacking out wherever.
 

GabeZhul

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Darks63 said:
The item use in combat was confusing and the tutorials don't cover it at all. The stuck in combat thing was usually due to their being one enemy left somewhere in the level and it not letting you break combat which is a bad feature should work more like the old fallouts. The place it is really annoying is in the matrix where even after you kill everything you have to turn base run to jack out rather than just jacking out wherever.
Ah, yeah, I completely forgot about that... I honestly don't know how decking and the matrix should work in motion, taken that my only hands-on experience with a Shadowrun session was watching my cousin and his friends play when I was a kid, and they had a house-rule for abstracting the entire hacking thing down to a single skill-check (as I have learned later, hacking in Shadowrun is pretty much a several hour long session within the session where the other characters can only sit around and watch while the decker goes on his own side-adventure), but I am pretty sure it was not supposed to look like this.

The matrix in SR is pretty much a series of arenas where you have to fight a random assortment of ICUs before you can move to the next, and you have to do the entire thing, moving and data-accessing included, in the turn based system while on the outside people will probably try to bash your head in (which also baffled me, since I thought there were different time-scales when it came to hacking and it was generally over in seconds in "real time"). Also, it was counter-intuitive to try and play as a decker in this game since you don't even get to hack into the matrix until about halfway through the main storyline, so sinking karma and money into that skillset would gimp you for the majority of the game.

As for items and their use, what killed me was that you couldn't heal, either by magic or by health-packs, outside of battle. It just boggles the mind how they could skim over such an obvious thing...

Finally, I actually looked into the modding scene, and while there a re a few promising titles, the system is still counter-intuitive, the Essence-rounding and the slot-based cyberware still gimps one's possibilities and it will be months before we would see any proper, full mods for the game. Hopefully by that time some resourceful people would reverse-engineer the editor as well so we could some truly unrestricted mods.
 

LookingGlass

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Darks63 said:
I hear you on the auto save only thing. It makes the game less of a pick up and place as you have time type title. When playing i can't say when i would be able to stop playing which i don't like especially if something comes up.


Though with the modding and more to be added i hope it can grow into something really cool to play here hopin.
LookingGlass said:
The only things that really bothered me were:
- At the very end one of my mercs died and I couldn't figure out how to use the Doc Wagon card to revive him.
- Why the hell am I stuck in turn-based combat mode (instead of exploration mode) after all of the enemies are dead? There were a bunch of places where this happened and it just slows you down needlessly.
The item use in combat was confusing and the tutorials don't cover it at all. The stuck in combat thing was usually due to their being one enemy left somewhere in the level and it not letting you break combat which is a bad feature should work more like the old fallouts. The place it is really annoying is in the matrix where even after you kill everything you have to turn base run to jack out rather than just jacking out wherever.
Regarding jacking out of the matrix, I randomly read on a forum somewhere after I was two-thirds of the way through the game, you can "eject" from the matrix at any time. If I remember correctly, there's a big red doesn't-look-much-like-a-button-but-it-is in the bottom left corner of the screen. I actually used it in the middle of combat once because I over-extended myself and was about to die at the hands of 3 enemies. It pops you back out to the real world and ends your current turn, but that's about it as far as I could tell.
 

Vern5

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LookingGlass said:
Darks63 said:
I hear you on the auto save only thing. It makes the game less of a pick up and place as you have time type title. When playing i can't say when i would be able to stop playing which i don't like especially if something comes up.


Though with the modding and more to be added i hope it can grow into something really cool to play here hopin.
LookingGlass said:
The only things that really bothered me were:
- At the very end one of my mercs died and I couldn't figure out how to use the Doc Wagon card to revive him.
- Why the hell am I stuck in turn-based combat mode (instead of exploration mode) after all of the enemies are dead? There were a bunch of places where this happened and it just slows you down needlessly.
The item use in combat was confusing and the tutorials don't cover it at all. The stuck in combat thing was usually due to their being one enemy left somewhere in the level and it not letting you break combat which is a bad feature should work more like the old fallouts. The place it is really annoying is in the matrix where even after you kill everything you have to turn base run to jack out rather than just jacking out wherever.
Regarding jacking out of the matrix, I randomly read on a forum somewhere after I was two-thirds of the way through the game, you can "eject" from the matrix at any time. If I remember correctly, there's a big red doesn't-look-much-like-a-button-but-it-is in the bottom left corner of the screen. I actually used it in the middle of combat once because I over-extended myself and was about to die at the hands of 3 enemies. It pops you back out to the real world and ends your current turn, but that's about it as far as I could tell.
That is a manual "jack-out" button. It pulls you directly out of the Matrix but its stuns you in the process since its so mentally jarring for the Decker. It's useful for when you're either about to die (you loser) or if you've just finished a matrix objective and need to quickly get back into meat-space to continue the mission.

I feel like people really complain about this game too much; it's really well-done considering how small its budget was. Hell, most of the complaints stem from players not knowing what they're doing.

For example, not every Runner should use cyberware. Street samurai, Deckers and Riggers are sort of encouraged to use cyberware (I know that Eye-enhancement came in handy for me) but that Essence score is only vital for magic users. In short, if you're picking out cyberware for your mage then you've already fucked up. Also, the weapons you have access to per mission are completely adequate in the hands of a skilled player.

Shadowrun's main problem is its interface. Runners can obstruct clickable items onscreen and there are more than a few glitches with the interactive objects and movement at times. The auto-save function seems odd but I'm sure someone will come up with a workaround in a few months.

Anyway, this game has far too many whiners attached to it.
 

Atmos Duality

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I agree with all of your points, but I will illuminate one point about Cyberware and Essence:
The Rounding system for Essence is just to keep the Magic stat calculated properly, since that's exactly how it works for awakened characters in the PnP system (I've run my share of SR3 games; still my favorite PnP game).

Calculate loss, then round down to nearest essence.
 

GabeZhul

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@Vern5: But then again, thanks to the Essence-rounding you get situations like the aforementioned issue of Riggers and Deckers starting out with one less Essence instead of 0.5, limiting their cyberware options, or that you can get into situations where you end up with up to two full points of Essence wasted as a street-samurai because of the rounding errors.

Also, again, one of Shadowrun's greatest appeals was that you could customize your cyber-gear to no end. Like, say, I have seen people putting chemical injectors into their cyber-arms that wouldn't show up on weapon scanners while at the same time they would have a lockpick in their index finger, a cutting laser in their middle finger and a extendable blade in their elbow. That is the kind of creativity and customization that is replaced with a single slot for mediocre synthetic arms with a botched essence-value.
And just to counter the already played "it's an indie game for $20" claim, a good portion of these issues are stuff that a single dedicated coder could fix in a couple dozen hours, a weekend tops. Hell, we have already seen huge weapons catalogs added to the game (which can only be used if they are integrated into a story mod because they have static vendor lists and thus new gear cannot be automatically integrated into them, another thing that a programmer could fix in a few hours), so it cannot be that hard.

To cut it short: If you are making a Shadowrun game, the priority list should look something like this: Cybertech (since this is what makes cyberpunk unique) -> Weapons (since the huge amount of weapons and gear was what made Shadowrun a really imaginative system) -> Setting (since cyberpunk is rare and thus people would get interested in it) -> System (translating the P&P system into a turn based CRPG should have been only a question of man-hours) -> Story (not a high priority since the setting itself is unique enough nowadays to carry even a mediocre plot) -> Graphics (since for an indie game, this is the one things people would most likely forgive)

Now look at the game, and what we got was exactly the opposite: Graphics first, plot second, setting third, system fourth and weapons and cybertech barely even registered on the scale. This is pretty much a the problem, the game ended up being style before substance, and while it's not bad, it's certainly disappointing overall.
 

SquidSponge

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Ahahahahaha, autosave only? Do I look like a console gamer to you? I was considering getting this game. Was.

Seriously though? Can't say I know much about Shadowrun specifically, but it does sound like they take a few liberties with the cyberware system. And, as much as I personally resent being told when I can and can't save MY damn game (thanks Obama consoles, for popularising the checkpoints system), it sounds like the biggest problem with autosave dependence is the huge amount of time between saves. Are there at least several slots? Because if you have 3-10 save slots that go every 5mins (or pop after plot-essential conversations) in town, or every couple of rooms in combat areas, that's an easy fix. A "save and exit" option seems like it'd fix many peoples' woes, but I suppose if they implemented that they'd be able to put in a manual "save and nothing" option, so this would be a moot point.
 

GabeZhul

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Atmos Duality said:
I agree with all of your points, but I will illuminate one point about Cyberware and Essence:
The Rounding system for Essence is just to keep the Magic stat calculated properly, since that's exactly how it works for awakened characters in the PnP system (I've run my share of SR3 games; still my favorite PnP game).

Calculate loss, then round down to nearest essence.
But in P&P you only do that for the calculations and when you switch out for other stuff (say, deltaware with less essence cost) you get back the differential as buffer that you can use for more cyberware. Here the rounded down portion is lost for good, and while I haven't experienced it myself (since my character only had a jack and an eye, installed at different times and costing 3 Essence in total already), I have heard of people switching out a basic cyberware for an alpha one, and losing essence on the deal. No matter how you look at that, there has to be some issues with the calculations there...
 

GabeZhul

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SquidSponge said:
Ahahahahaha, autosave only? Do I look like a console gamer to you? I was considering getting this game. Was.

Seriously though? Can't say I know much about Shadowrun specifically, but it does sound like they take a few liberties with the cyberware system. And, as much as I personally resent being told when I can and can't save MY damn game (thanks Obama consoles, for popularising the checkpoints system), it sounds like the biggest problem with autosave dependence is the huge amount of time between saves. Are there at least several slots? Because if you have 3-10 save slots that go every 5mins (or pop after plot-essential conversations) in town, or every couple of rooms in combat areas, that's an easy fix. A "save and exit" option seems like it'd fix many peoples' woes, but I suppose if they implemented that they'd be able to put in a manual "save and nothing" option, so this would be a moot point.
I would still recommend giving the game a try, but yeah, the autosave system can get annoying. In practice you only get auto-saves when you see a loading-screen, which are relatively close together, in about 5-15 min intervals, but the problem is that the longer interval generally means more battles, which generally means a bigger chance for your character to get offed by a badly timed critical and having to start it over again. Now, if the stage also has side-quests and you happen to spend some time deciding how to spend your Karma then you can easily end up with losing 30-40 minutes of progress, which is not fun.

But then again, the game itself is not bad once you distance it from its roots and look at it as a stand-alone "Budget RPG", but then calling it "Shadowrun Returns" is a bit of a false advertisement, isn't it? :p
 

SquidSponge

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I guess I'm a prime candidate for this game then, knowing the general premise of Shadowrun but little in the way of details. Maybe if I modded in manual saving. But I was jesting before - the save system is rather offputting, but the real reason I didn't buy it (finances aside) is the old-school isometric view - never did really get along with it. Couldn't even force myself to complete Baldur's Gate, and I acknowledge how awesome that game was. Just personal preference on that really. I suppose I might get it in a Steam sale someday.

Going horribly off-topic, this Solve Media is a pain in the arse, it keeps giving me what I assume are references to American adverts. I don't even watch my own country's TV, so "Shower like a ______" means nothing to me, and I have no idea what company offers $50 free something when you sign up for whatever.
 

GabeZhul

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Ah, if we are at isometric views, this reminded me of something: Am I the only one who had to scratch his head at the game's implementation of cover? Namely how it refuses to acknowledge doorframes as cover? My X-COM reflexes always told me that I should position one man on the left and one on the right of the door before entry, possibly one on overwatch as well, but then it turned out that this gave me no cover advantage while obscuring my line of sight and allowing the enemies on the other side to make potshots at me with grenades, leading to the situation where barging right through the door with no mind for cover was more useful than a tactical entry. Kind of silly design decision, if you ask me...
 

Atmos Duality

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GabeZhul said:
But in P&P you only do that for the calculations and when you switch out for other stuff (say, deltaware with less essence cost) you get back the differential as buffer that you can use for more cyberware. Here the rounded down portion is lost for good, and while I haven't experienced it myself (since my character only had a jack and an eye, installed at different times and costing 3 Essence in total already), I have heard of people switching out a basic cyberware for an alpha one, and losing essence on the deal. No matter how you look at that, there has to be some issues with the calculations there...
Upgrades work as you describe in SR3, but Shadowrun Returns only cares about essence in terms of Magic.
I'll have to see if there's an error for additional essence loss where there shouldn't be any (since I haven't played with cyberware much) but from what I've seen so far, Essence is using the Magic stat calculation currently.
 

loc978

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GabeZhul said:
As for items and their use, what killed me was that you couldn't heal, either by magic or by health-packs, outside of battle. It just boggles the mind how they could skim over such an obvious thing...
...you actually can, by either... and could at launch. Simply go to your inventory screen, click the spell/medkit, click "activate" where it pops up, and it'll give you a list of wounded party members to choose from.

Mind you, I don't disagree with most of your points, that one is just wrong.
 

Vern5

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GabeZhul said:
so it cannot be that hard.
It can always be that hard. I've worked with a few programmers and it always looks easier when some modder starts making corrections in programming but the difference in perspective means everything.

GabeZhul said:
To cut it short: If you are making a Shadowrun game, the priority list should look something like this: Cybertech (since this is what makes cyberpunk unique) -> Weapons (since the huge amount of weapons and gear was what made Shadowrun a really imaginative system) -> Setting (since cyberpunk is rare and thus people would get interested in it) -> System (translating the P&P system into a turn based CRPG should have been only a question of man-hours) -> Story (not a high priority since the setting itself is unique enough nowadays to carry even a mediocre plot) -> Graphics (since for an indie game, this is the one things people would most likely forgive)

Now look at the game, and what we got was exactly the opposite: Graphics first, plot second, setting third, system fourth and weapons and cybertech barely even registered on the scale. This is pretty much a the problem, the game ended up being style before substance, and while it's not bad, it's certainly disappointing overall.
I'm having trouble understanding why the cyberware is so important. I honestly forgot about it once I got my advanced eye and the sub-dermal armor because most of the upgrades were not worth sacrificing a perfectly useful limb. Most of the items you listed as important to a Shadowrun game would be considered tertiary in any other crpg. Also, we didn't really get graphics as a primary consideration. If we had, then the game would be in full 3D.

The most important thing to a Shadowrun game is its Shadowrun setting. Without a heavy dose of Shadowrun's lore and mechanics, then Shadowrun Returns would have just been a game as opposed to a Shadowrun game. Of course, that's a lot of lore to pump into a single engine and a 12 hour campaign; some sacrifices would need to be made in order to facilitate that.
 

GabeZhul

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loc978 said:
GabeZhul said:
As for items and their use, what killed me was that you couldn't heal, either by magic or by health-packs, outside of battle. It just boggles the mind how they could skim over such an obvious thing...
...you actually can, by either... and could at launch. Simply go to your inventory screen, click the spell/medkit, click "activate" where it pops up, and it'll give you a list of wounded party members to choose from.

Mind you, I don't disagree with most of your points, that one is just wrong.
Huh, weird. I tried that and there was no activation prompt...
Let me check that, be right back. :)