Shadowrun Returns, Dragonfall and Hong Kong

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vallorn

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Since they have now been out for a while I thought it was time for a retrospective on how the new series of Shadowrun games has progressed so far. First, the low down for you chummers, the games have been funded through Kickstarter for the Harebrained Schemes studio to produce with Returns and Hong Kong getting their own campaigns and Dragonfall being a stretch goal for Returns. You feel me omais?

The setting is a classic Cyberpunk one, corps ruling the world, people signed up for SINs so they can be tracked and take part in that system, and SINless underclasses both just trying to make ends meet and performing black ops jobs as 'deniable assets' for the corps. It's a drekking nasty place to be chummers I'll tell you that much. What makes it worse or better is that Magic is back, see, the world's mojo runs in 5000 year cycles and the last 5000 years up till 2000AD have been a low ebb called The Fifth World, we're now in The Sixth World for all the good that does us, kids get born as Orcs, Trolls, Dwarves, Elves or regular humans, all of which get lumped into the new group named "Metahumanity" and some are born with the power to control the ever growing flow of mana in the world.

Outside of humans we have dragons returning and lording over people, buying corps and doing what dragons do as well as things in the Astral reals and the deep corners of The Matrix (this setting's version of The Internet, only, not 2d but VR) subtly manipulating things to their own ends.

Now that you have the scoop on how things are omais, let's get into the games, just remember. Always watch your back, Never trust a Johnson, and NEVER do a deal with a dragon. Stay safe chummers.
Shadowrun Returns
The game that started these ones off, kickstarted by Harebrained Schemes, they billed this game as being an RPG in the classic sense, so, does it hold up?
Main campaign: Kind of a letdown, linear and mostly there to show off the setting and let the PC meet a load of insanely important in universe characters, however, it does tie into the main universe's plot somewhat well and it's definitely gripping in a way. I'd give it a 7.5/10 if I was pressed.

Strengths: First game of the series, some excellent tools for modders and they made damn good use of them, From The Shadows, Run is a spectacular work.

Weaknesses: No real characterization for anyone outside of the PC's most immediate circle and you never get to bring them along on runs.

Shadowrun: Dragonfall

Main campaign: Set in the anarchist Berlin you get to experience a much more open ended and "classic" feeling Shadowrun experience than Returns's main campaign. It's just... better in every way, better level design, better characters, better gameplay. It's what a lot of people would call the quintessential game from this studio.

Strengths: Your runners are a team that you get to interact with between missions, and they are fantastic as an array of characters in this setting should be.

Weaknesses: It doesn't really innovate much in the underlying mechanics from Returns, the "hub" area is nice, as is the better characterization. Aside from that, it's not really stretching beyond what Returns did.

Shadowrun: Hong Kong
They did a whole new campaign for this title and released this year Let's get down to it!
Main campaign: A much weirder campaign than Returns and Dragonfall, esoteric astral happenings, nutty megacorp conspiracies and some concepts unique to the Hong Kong setting that I REALLY don't spoil. It's characters are either better than or worse than Dragonfall's companions, some are excellent while others spend most of their time just explaining why they happen to exist in the setting. It's still brilliant but if you are expecting "Another Dragonfall", don't. It's really similar in some ways, but different enough that you will regret if it you expect more of the same.

Strengths:They completely reworked how Decking works, pay attention to it if you decide to play it, they also reworked a few other things but nothing as serious as the utter overhaul that Decking got. Some love the change, some don't. But it's definitely a change and I personally prefer it.

Weaknesses: The characters aren't quite as fleshed out as Dragonfall's were but then it's a bit more hit and miss all around, some hub characters that you expect to have different things to say every time you pop in after a run just end up having 3-4 different parts and so you can easily run out of that extra plot stuff going on before getting near to completing the main plot.

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With that all said and done, what do you all think of the games? Do you like them? Do you hate them? Do you prefer one over the others? Let's all have a chat about em omais!

P.S. Bonus points for slipping some shadowtalk into your post.
 

Jandau

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Personally, I felt they showed how Kickstarter is supposed to work. They said what they were going to do, they set reasonable goals and requested appropriate funding, then delivered in good order, with the final product being quite solid.

I like the games, all three of them. There is a definite upwards trend in gameplay refinement as the series progresses, which is always nice to see. The core gameplay is straightforward and simple, but effective. Visuals are simple and stylish, showing you can have expressive and immersive locations without a massive budget. Writing did peak with Dragonfall (Eiger FTW!), but Hong Kong was still good (my pet Ghoul Samurai!).

These games are no Witcher 3 or Skyrim, but they aren't trying to be. They are meant to be smaller-scale affairs and work perfectly within those confines. If the games were bigger or longer, they'd lack gameplay depth to support the extra runtime. But as they are, they are beautiful little gems.

However, I'm worried about the series going forward. The current incarnation is nice, but it's in danger of outstaying its welcome. What I mean by that is that all three games have the same basic structure - You stumble into the plot, something nasty goes down, you go shadowrunning to raise funds and prepare for the big nasty, you face the big nasty and win the day. The series needs to be shaken up a bit, either by having a new take on it (maybe by playing something other than a Shadowrunner) or by realizing it on a larger scale (tricky for a relatively small dev like Hairbrained). In general, I'm glad they put it on ice for now. I'm very much looking forward to their Mechwarrior game and have high hopes for it. But I wouldn't mind them breathing some additional fresh air into the Shadowrun universe.

Also, I wouldn't mind someone else taking a crack at the license. Imagine a Telltale Shadowrun game. Or a CD Projekt one (yes, Cyberpunk 2077, I know, but it's not the same). Or something like Dishonored in that setting...
 

Fat Hippo

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I enjoyed all of them. Sometimes it's nice to have a smaller RPG. You make a character, you get 20 or so hours of building that character, meet some people, play some decent turn-based combat, and get a story that's wrapped up nicely by the end. Not everything needs to be a series of epic 80-hour RPGs. These games won't blow your mind, but they're overall solid, and you know what you're getting. And there's nothing wrong with that.
 

MonsterCrit

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CAn't say i'm overly thrilled.

Shadowrun Returns. Good but not much replay value honestly.. Also difficulty settings don't seem to do jack. MAtrix combat was outright annoying. And it was too busy giving handjobs to the fans of the Snes shadowrun games.

WHen it works it's not too bad but it could have been better.

Dragonfall....

Well not much fan handjob here so that's an improvement. A bit more depth in classes. but for crikes sake this game is one step away from being called a visual novel.

Hong Kong....
The MAtrix sections are now basically the mandatory stealth missions now. And as for the game. It's basically the same as before. the TBC is nice but again rather easily proven and again, this has even more text and dialog than the last one. This actually could count as a visual novel. This actually works against the whole thing since honestly i have no desire to read and click through that much dialog again,.. just to experience a slight alteration in game play.
 

Mister K

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I am yet to play Hong Kong, but I liked Shadowrun: Returns and Dragonfall. I like that they have actual turn based combat, and also that character creation is pretty damn flexible. You want to create a "Muscle Wizard"? You can. Shotgun-wielding hacker? You can. Persuasive magical martial artist? You can. Although, I think people who like to backstab don't have the option to do so in the game.

However, SR:R I found to be worse than DF in story aspect. Not only it didn't have intersting companions for your character, the plot itself took a huge dive in the end. I mean, I am looking into a death of my former colleague. I've found the killer. EARTH-CONQUERING SPACE BUGS OUT OF NOWHERE!

But still, I enjoyed those games and I do hope I'll like Hong Kong.
 

Mister K

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Jandau said:
(Eiger FTW!)
While I agree that Eiger is cool and all, old punk-band member turned shaman Dietrich and sick-ass combat medic with razor-sharp claws Glory are (IMO) cooler both in the combat and story wise. Doesn't make Eiger any worse though.

But to hell with Blitz.
 

Mangod

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Jandau said:
However, I'm worried about the series going forward. The current incarnation is nice, but it's in danger of outstaying its welcome. What I mean by that is that all three games have the same basic structure - You stumble into the plot, something nasty goes down, you go shadowrunning to raise funds and prepare for the big nasty, you face the big nasty and win the day.
Well, that's traditionally been how Shadowrun campaigns work; some milk run that accidently (or intentionally) leads to much bigger things.

Jandau said:
The series needs to be shaken up a bit, either by having a new take on it (maybe by playing something other than a Shadowrunner) or by realizing it on a larger scale (tricky for a relatively small dev like Hairbrained). In general, I'm glad they put it on ice for now. I'm very much looking forward to their Mechwarrior game and have high hopes for it. But I wouldn't mind them breathing some additional fresh air into the Shadowrun universe.
Any suggestions for what they could do differently? Campaign-wise, I mean.

Personally, I figure you could do something where you're CorpSec, the guys that Shadowrunners usually leave behind them in droves of corpses, trying to protect your Corp (and paycheck). Mirror-verse campaign, so to speak.
 

Mangod

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Mister K said:
Jandau said:
(Eiger FTW!)
While I agree that Eiger is cool and all, old punk-band member turned shaman Dietrich and sick-ass combat medic with razor-sharp claws Glory are (IMO) cooler both in the combat and story wise. Doesn't make Eiger any worse though.

But to hell with Blitz.
I don't know, I kind of like Blitz. He talks a big game, but I think that's because he's filled with selfdoubt over that business with his ex.

Dietrich has the best line in that game, though. No debate.

PC: You can sing?
Dietrich: I was the front man for a punk band, boss. Fuck no, I can't sing.
 

BloatedGuppy

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vallorn said:
With that all said and done, what do you all think of the games? Do you like them? Do you hate them? Do you prefer one over the others? Let's all have a chat about em omais!
I thought they were stupid butt games coded by butts who like to smell butts.

Really though, they have a LOT of issues. Dragonfall was the best...a demonstration that they'd learned to work within the confines of their (abominable) engine, and deliver a marginally competent product. Hong Kong is more or less Dragonfall Redux, and is less impressive by virtue of being a year older and even more tired.

Two things really hold the game back. The engine is atrocious...I've said before and will say again that it is one of the worst engines in modern gaming. Static backdrops with almost no interactivity and loading screens everywhere. Would've had little shine on it fifteen years ago...as a present day offering it's an embarrassment.

The other problem is the mechanics. Those who have played the pen and paper game will be familiar with its long history and rich mechanics. All these were tossed aside for the CRPG for reasons unknown, and replaced with hideously streamlined, drab, dull mechanics that are suitable to bargain bin tactics games or $1 mobile apps.

This could have been somewhat salvaged if the writing had been particularly on point, but it's only okay. This is no Planescape...it's roughly on level with a campy fan-made Shadowrun adventure. Perfectly fine, nothing to write home about. Returns is actually quite awful, but Dragonfall and Hong Kong have their moments.

Pretty hugely disappointing translation of the IP to the digital medium. I'm frankly baffled by the game's small clusters of support, as I fail to see anything close to the merit they assign it. Wishful thinking?
 

Jandau

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Mangod said:
Any suggestions for what they could do differently? Campaign-wise, I mean.

Personally, I figure you could do something where you're CorpSec, the guys that Shadowrunners usually leave behind them in droves of corpses, trying to protect your Corp (and paycheck). Mirror-verse campaign, so to speak.
CorpSec, Lone Star, Ganger... hell, a cult leader would work. Basically, anything other than a Shadowrunner. And it would work within the format they established, with smaller, self-contained stories that play out inside 10-20 hours.
 

Dalsyne

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Shadowrun Returns: OH YES GLORIOUS 1999 STYLE CRPG OH HOW I MISSED Y- oh the interface is a little bad and the game's pretty simple I guess it's not a full return to form but SURE I'LL TAKE IT

Shadowrun Dragonfall: wow this is a big improvement I like the new story and the direction they're taking. But it still kinda suffers from most of SR's problems. Nonetheless this is amazing!

Shadowrun HK: THIS STORY IS SO GOOD JESUS CHRIST SO GOOD AND THE MISSIONS ARE SO GOOD AND THE COMPANIONS ARE SO GOOD AND I'M HAVING THE GREATEST TIME oh I'm bored of it and I abandoned it just before the last mission well that was unexpected.

Yeah, I think that's enough. Overall I really liked the new series and I hope they continue it sometime.
 

vallorn

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Dalsyne said:
Shadowrun Returns: OH YES GLORIOUS 1999 STYLE CRPG OH HOW I MISSED Y- oh the interface is a little bad and the game's pretty simple I guess it's not a full return to form but SURE I'LL TAKE IT

Shadowrun Dragonfall: wow this is a big improvement I like the new story and the direction they're taking. But it still kinda suffers from most of SR's problems. Nonetheless this is amazing!

Shadowrun HK: THIS STORY IS SO GOOD JESUS CHRIST SO GOOD AND THE MISSIONS ARE SO GOOD AND THE COMPANIONS ARE SO GOOD AND I'M HAVING THE GREATEST TIME oh I'm bored of it and I abandoned it just before the last mission well that was unexpected.

Yeah, I think that's enough. Overall I really liked the new series and I hope they continue it sometime.
SPOILERS.
I had to stop playing HK because I encountered a bug at the top of Tsang Tower where killing a very specific Captain results in the game thinking that my decker is dead and the mission flat out fails. And I have to kill him to move through...

I like some of the HK changes but now that they seem to have a good grasp of how to make these games I think a bit more ambition being put into the UI and gameplay would be nice. And despite the RPG elements sometimes being light, it's still more of an RPG than Fallout 4 by miles.
 

Erttheking

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In order of my favorites

Shadowrun Returns, which I separate from the others by referring to it as Deadman's Switch, partially to avoid confusion and partially because Deadman's Switch is an awesome name. Decent. Didn't blow my mind but it held my attention. Writing was a mixed bag, the characters were bleh but the atmosphere was pretty damn good. Combat was ok, it did its job, and overall I walked away feeling satisfied, though not impressed. The overarching story was just ok too. Overall, nothing special, but I don't regret playing it, AND it introduced me to Shadowrun.

Shadowrun Hong Kong. The characters were much better than in Deadman's Switch (ESPECIALLY Rachter, Jesus Christ I love that guy) and the atmosphere, which was already pretty good, was mind blowingly terrifying. Everything about the Walled City made me scream NO! Gameplay was slightly more refined but still serviceable, but I play these games for story. This one had a pretty good story, although it felt a little bloated at times. Much better game.

Dragonfall: DEAR! GOD! I fucking love Dragonfall! The characters and story are just fucking amazing!
 

Oinodaemon

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HK has been my favorite so far, though it was the hardest for me to get into initially. That climax, though...not gonna spoil it, but when the shit finally hit the fan I was absolutely blown away. Then...well, it kinda petered out after that. Still great, though.
 

Souplex

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I enjoyed them all.
Dead Man's switch was good at the time, but after playing Dragonfall its painful to go back.

Everything positive that can be said about Dragonfall has been said, even the fact that Eiger is the best waifu. (I'm surprised, I figured the 'Pist would go for Glory, while I'm at it how do you pronounce Eiger? "Ay-ger"? "Eager"? "Eye-ger"?)
The problems with Dragonfall are thus: Extreme Karma shortage, campaign was clearly designed with a decker/rigger (Recker? Digger? Techmaster?) in mind for the player, everything has to be a choice between being professional and doing the right thing, encounters start with every enemy taking a shot at you before you're in cover.

While Hong Kong is overall an improvement over Dragonfall, it has some problems.
It is really buggy, way too verbose, money was ball-shrivelingly tight, and the characters are basically a retread in terms of personality. (Duncan = Eiger, Gobbet = Deitrich, Is0bel = Glory)

What I'd really like is a version of the 3 that lets you import (With like half the karma in each campaign for balancing purposes) and has dialogue acknowledging it. (Deitrich: So what brought you to Berlin? Carlos: Seattle got weird man, giant bug spirits weird.) (Duncan: Where've you been all these years? Carlos: I got locked away at a corporate blacksite, then busted out by some runners who I joined up with. Couldn't go back to my old life without bringing heat down on you.)
Also, where the hell are the magic tattoos? We've had NPCs talk about them at length in 2 games, and a magic-shopkeeper who is into tattoos.
 

Dornedas

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I never played Returns so I guess I just have to give my opinion on the other ones.
And I never played the pen and paper so I don't know whether or not the games are good adaptations.

Let's start with things that annoyed me in Hong Kong and Berlin:
The decking.
It was just not very interesting in both. It was even worse in Hong Kong because of the addition of stealth.
I mean I understand that they added it to make it more interesting but the grid based system and path finding is rather annoying when you are trying to quickly run away from the vision cones.

And generally the perspective during fights sometimes had me move in the wrong box.

Oh and enemies get the first round. But I'm not so sure if this was in both I remember that it really annoyed me during the Dragonfall Ghoul battles.
I ABSOLUTELY hate this in games. At least let my characters have some sort of reflex round you know.
Just to move them into cover and not have them stand around in the open, swinging their balls while they get shot at.

Can't think of more right now. Give me a break it has been, like, 4 months.

Now to the one I liked more. Dragonfall.
I quite liked the concept of being a sort of caretaker of your little hub while getting to know the different characters in there.
The fact that they added fleshed out NPCs that have nothing to do with the plot is a big plus in general.
This applies to companions, too. Except for the techie. The being a plus thing that is.
Oh and the fact that they said that you don't need to be a good singer to be in a punk band. It's funny because it is true.
I liked the fact that the characters sometimes used German phrases as a greeting or a Good Bye.
It makes the game-world believable. More games need to do this and I really missed it in Hong Kong.

What I don't believe though is the fact that the story expects someone from the "Kohlepott" (the Ruhr district) to save Berlin.
I mean realistically speaking if you asked someone from there to stop the destruction of Berlin he would laugh and order another "Pommes Schranke" (french fries with mayonnaise and ketchup).

Now let me talk about Hong Kong.
The NPC part still applies to this one.
Except that crazy Russian guy is by far the best companion. Some of the later conversations made me feel really uncomfortable but in a good way. In a "what he says is logical but I wan't it to be illogical so I can disagree" kind of way.
And I liked that there are a few missions that you can do without giving a single shot. I don't think there was one in Dragonfall but I could remember it wrong.
But this is also the reason why this game is not as good as Dragonfall.
At times there is simply TOO MUCH talking in the game.
I mean you can spend around 4 hours talking in the hub area without going to a mission. Because if you go to a mission then you might miss on some of the talking and who knows what then might happen to the characters in the hub area.
Which is GOOD because it means the NPCs are interesting enough for me to care about them but it is also BAD because it can really drain your endurance and your will to continue with the talking.

Oh and Hong Kong is worse because I stopped playing it. Don't really remember why. Something on a mission pissed me off immensely.
 

DementedSheep

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Deadmans switch I enjoyed but it's not brilliant. I like it for the setting, music and plot to some extent though the characters are light and I would have preferred they hadn't used the evil bug spirit cult and kept it more murder and corporate conspiracy. The combat isn't very good. It's shallow and I hate that you can't do anything out of combat and enemies move first. You have walk into the middle of rooms you know are full of enemies and get shot in the face before you can do anything. It is particularly evident in the mods that tried to make it harder because the combats too shallow for meaningful challenge so "harder" tends to mean a lot of enemies that all open fire on you first turn so you have to pump body.

Dragonfall is miles better story and character wise but mechanically I still don't like it so the combat is something I play to get to the rest of the game. They seemed to have taken the criticism that deckers don't do enough in the opposite direction a bit too much.

Hong Kong I've not played yet.

Hmm my post sounds a bit more negative than intended. I do like the games, what it dose well it dose really well.
 

Dalsyne

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vallorn said:
I like some of the HK changes but now that they seem to have a good grasp of how to make these games I think a bit more ambition being put into the UI and gameplay would be nice. And despite the RPG elements sometimes being light, it's still more of an RPG than Fallout 4 by miles.
No argument there. I feel like it's more of a shoddy skeleton to volumes of writing than an actual, fully featured game. A shame, and it makes me wary of their new Mechwarrior game. They really need to hire someone who knows how to design a UI.
 

pookie101

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enjoyed them all. playing shadowrun returns actually felt to me the closest a game has come to capturing the feel of playing table top module
 

The Madman

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Damned good games I'd say. One aspect which I really like about the recent Shadowrun games and which hasn't really been mentioned though is the roleplaying.

Hong Kong especially is really good in this regard in large part thanks to the inclusion of Duncan, a character with a previous history with the player-character and who is often used as a proxy to help the player flesh out their own characters personality and past. Through Duncan and your current actions you're given the opportunity to shape the protagonist into something a bit more unique than your typical cardboard rpg hero while still allowing them to feel a part of the overarching story. Greedy, selfish, selfless, honest, with a troubled past or an optimistic future, you're given the tools in-game to help shape those aspects of the character and I really appreciate that in an rpg. Ultimately it doesn't always mean much but it still helps in terms of world-building and immersion in a way more bland rpg protag options do not.

I really like it when rpg's give me those sorts of options and it's becoming depressingly rare as most rpg go the way of Mass Effect or even Witcher 3 with pre-established protagonist... which I want to stress isn't a bad thing, I think both Shepard and Geralt are great, but I do like a little diversity every here and there and games which allow me to both make my own hero and play them accordingly have become surprisingly sparse. I'm not counting games like Skyrim or Wasteland 2 where you can make a protag but then they're about as interesting as a slice of bread either.

Anyway to name a few off the top of my head really good in this respect:

-Vampire: Bloodlines
-Alpha Protocol
-Knights of the Old Republic 2
-Arcanum
-Fallout 1&2

And now Shadowrun: Hong Kong and, to a slightly lesser but still admirable amount, Dragonfall. That doesn't make either game perfect by any stretch I might add, I can think of plenty of niggling problems I have with the recent Shadowrun games, but it's just something I've found myself really admiring about them.