Sharia (Islamic Law) in Great Britain

Agema

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bagodix said:
Agema said:
Most Muslims in the UK are peaceful, friendly people who respect the UK's laws.
Not really.
That's an illuminating intellectual and logical response. I can really see how you backed up your well-reasoned and detailed explanation of your conclusions with evidence and an open mind.
 

Gingerman

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Well it seems I'm a few years late in joining this discussion but better late than never.

Islamic, Christian etc law etc has no place in a modern country. Why? well a religious law condoning the beating of wives and in some cases murder of them really doesn't ride well as well, its barbaric. Should Muslims have the choice of being charged under Sharia law? no they are in Britain and should be tried under British law not under some stupid book (that goes for all religions, well except maybe the Buddhists yet to see them massacre folk).

Now do I believe that western culture is better than most eastern ones? yes. Why? let me see whats more cultured stoning a 13 year old girl for saying no to being forced into a marriage or being in a culture in which women can become the leader of the country? I think that pretty much sums it up. Now I do realise most muslims aren't fundamentalists but their view on their holy book is quite strong so to speak (Anyone remember that little cartoon that got them annoyed?) so yeah folk like that I'm not going to be tolerant with. Now I do have a few muslim friends at work and I respect them as they well to put it bluntly aren't idiots therefore dont believe in stoning people, or beheading those who insult Islam so to speak.

Also I live in Glasgow, I've seen the Life of Brian on sale in quite a few places over the years so where did you pull that fact from?
 

Gileseypops

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I think this is a step in the wrong direction. Not only does it infringe on the country's current laws, but it also creates divides in cultures. If Muslims now have their own laws and courts, this is going to divide them further from the rest of society. Also the courts are famous for overlooking mistreatment of women which means domestic violence will not be punished properly in a lot of cases.

Also (though I conveniently cannot remember the persons name...I saw him on the news a few months ago), a head of a muslim community group said that many muslims do not actually want sharia law in the UK, and one of the reasons they enjoy british culture is the absence of sharia law. So this is going to divide even the muslim population depending on whether they want to settle disputes in Sharia courts or British courts....either that or compell them to adopt sharia law in fear of being excommunicated from muslim society.

And i know it's already been said, but anybody living in england should respect english laws, as I like to think the english would when visiting or migrating to any other foreign country. By all means people are entitled to their cultures, but divising a parralel legal system that ignores the values of the country just seems a bit disrespectful to me.

xx
 

Gileseypops

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Froobyx" post="18.71605.3708674 said:
And then there's political correctness, over here, we can no longer sing the nursery rhyme "Ba Ba Black Sheep" It's now "Ba Ba Rainbow Sheep" to stop coloured people from being offended. There're loads more but I'm just so rarghh about this thread that I lost track.

I actually think it's disgusting that people from different countries come over here and then treat it like it's their own country.. White people get called racist, but when it's the other way round, the coloured people aren't racist the white people still are! And then we're the ones that get punished for it. The government is so scared of being called racist imo that it'll do anything in it's power to stop them all getting offended.

There's an amusing exercise when a person accuses you of being racist for a purely objective comment...

Lets say you say something casual that somebody has been deemed as racist (like on scrubs when JD calls Turk 'Brown Bear' etc), ask them why exactly it is racist, and try to get them to say something on the lines of 'because he's black'...or whatever. Then simply point out that THEY are the racists because they are judging both you and the other person primarily on race.

If you do it right, their face is priceless. :)

xx
 

TheMatt

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Albert_Wesker657 said:
WHY WHY WHY?

Why should there laws legally Binding? I mean what the heck?.

If say, tons of english people, went to a country full of islams, And asked for there laws to legally binding, The islams would say no. So why the hell are giving them the right to there laws in OUR country. Its not right IMO
because it is the nature of western society to bend over and take it from just about anybody.

We're paying for our past transgressions you see.
 

Agema

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They've done surveys on how many Muslims feel in the UK. These surveys are all easily Googlable, although some sites have adapted their use for anti- or pro-Muslim propaganda so have different commentaries on them.

In response to the London bombings, for instance, merely 1% of Muslims surveyed thought it was "right". Several surveys suggest at least 60% of Muslims prefer British to Sharia law. (Support for Sharia is heavily concentrated amongst 16-24-year-old males, who are prone to being disaffected, rebellious and hormonally afflicted.) 84% of Muslims are happy with their treatment in Britain, 28% think the government has done too much to make them feel comfortable.

There are only about 1.5million Muslims in Britain, and considering the vast majority seem to be pretty content with the way things are now, we're hardly facing a huge threat.
 

Chipperz

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bagodix said:
Sharia does not deserve even the tiniest amount of legitimacy, and the same could really be said about Islam itself.
...aaaaaaaaaaaand then you went and spoiled it all, by saying something stupid like a raaacist...

OT - Even as a semi-religious person, I still believe God has no place in law. I think the Jewish Orthodox tribunals are just as bad as the Sharia Courts, because they encourage religions acting independantly which leads to people buying papers like The Sun and the Daily Mail (for all you Americans out there, they're kind of like Fox News : The Comic!), which is a BAD THING.
 

Agema

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bagodix said:
Agema said:
That's an illuminating intellectual and logical response. I can really see how you backed up your well-reasoned and detailed explanation of your conclusions with evidence and an open mind.
"You just gotta have an open mind" is wishy-washy feel-good emotional nonsense that doesn't mean anything.
The process of collecting evidence and then making a decision without bias is intellectual competence, not "wishy-washy emotional nonsense". At any rate, you are evidently a troll with nothing useful to say.
 

cuddly_tomato

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Agema said:
Let's be quite clear: there is no Shariah law in the UK.

What there is, is room in the existing national law for an arbitration process, where a third party mediates the dispute. Arbitration can only occur in a limited number of occasions - it's applicable only for some civil disputes. All parties must freely agree to the process.

If two people freely choose an arbitration by an third party mediator who uses Shariah law as a yardstick, I don't see what the problem is. Fairly obviously, anyone who faces severe disadvantage (for instance Shariah divorces which heavily favour the men) can simply refuse arbitration and take the case to the courts.
And thus I find myself an island of intelligence in a sea of ignorance. Agema gets himself (or herself) a cuddly toy (or barbie doll) of his (or her) choosing.

EDIT: Chipperz, you get a cuddly toy too. I posted as I was typing.

On "Islamification of Britain":- It's horse shit. Or cow shit. Or kangaroo shit... or any other kind of shit you care to mention. It isn't happening. ONE Islamic cleric might say something stupid, then every UK tabloid will sieze it and run with massive headlines:-

"MUSLIMS SET TO TAKE OVER ENGLAND! Queen to be renamed Sheba."

When was the last time anyone was "Islamified" against their will? Is there a single tea shop owner in Dorset who has to tell her customers: "Sorry dear, we're not allowed to serve a scone until after dark as it's Ramadan." Do radio stations have to start the day: "Allaaaaah ? ah-aaaah allaaaaaah. Good morning, this is BBC Radio Sussex calling you to prayer." The most important government policy in recent years was probably the decision to go to war in Iraq, a move vehemently opposed by almost every Muslim in the country. I suppose that proves it all eh? Politicians are so scared of offending Muslims now they ignore them just as much as they ignore the rest of us. This whole anti-Islam crap has gone beyond ridiculous and is obviously racist. I don't think that all the people saying it are racist, I think most of them are just thick. They read this crap in a racist tabloid and believe it.

On all this "OMG Relijohn iz badz!".

Secular law means that the state does not endorse a religion or enforce a religious practice upon its citizens. Secular does not mean that the law pretends that religion doesn't exist. Truly secular laws have to recognize religion as a legitimate human endeavour. People need legal protection and so forth. Let me give an example.

Easter Sunday! We have some atheists, and some Christians.

The Christians want the day off work. A secular society would recognize their freedom to observe their religious practices, so would protect them from being fired if they took that day off.

The atheists want to work. A secular society would not force their citizens to take the day off work either, and if the boss forced everyone to take the day off they would still be entitled to a full wage that day. The law would simply provide the legal framework to protect the rights of people to observe religious freedom.

A theocracy would force everyone to take the day off, (as was done in the past). An atheist state would force everyone to work, regardless if they were religious or not. Neither of these are secular.
 

Agema

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bagodix said:
Agema said:
The process of collecting evidence and then making a decision without bias is intellectual competence, not "wishy-washy emotional nonsense".
No, seriously: it does not mean anything.

At any rate, you are evidently a troll with nothing useful to say.
You have no reason to call me a troll, which makes you a troll.
I'm afraid I'm not interested in behaving like a five-year-old.

If you're unable or unwilling to justify outrageous and inflammatory statements with any kind of evidence, especially after I have requested you do, there's no point me treating you as anything other than a troll. So apologies, but if you don't wish to put anything of value into the thread, I'll just ignore you from now on. Is that okay?
 

Doug

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Albert_Wesker657 said:
WHY WHY WHY?

Why should there laws legally Binding? I mean what the heck?.

If say, tons of english people, went to a country full of islams, And asked for there laws to legally binding, The islams would say no. So why the hell are giving them the right to there laws in OUR country. Its not right IMO
Well, Jewish law is allowed in such cases as well, I believe - its not criminal law, its civil law, and even then, it has to be both parties agreeing to it.

That said, I think its all too easy for the more isolated individuals (i.e. beaten wives) to be pushed into allowing Sharia. Especially in the cases of first generation immigrants.
 

IckleMissMayhem

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My POV on issues like this has always been "You're welcome to come over and integrate fully into society. If you aren't willing to do that, GTFO."

Religion should have nothing to do with Politics, Education, Laws, Medicine etc - in that far-off 'ideal' world.
 

Agema

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Doug said:
Albert_Wesker657 said:
WHY WHY WHY?

Why should there laws legally Binding? I mean what the heck?.

If say, tons of english people, went to a country full of islams, And asked for there laws to legally binding, The islams would say no. So why the hell are giving them the right to there laws in OUR country. Its not right IMO
Well, Jewish law is allowed in such cases as well, I believe - its not criminal law, its civil law, and even then, it has to be both parties agreeing to it.

That said, I think its all too easy for the more isolated individuals (i.e. beaten wives) to be pushed into allowing Sharia. Especially in the cases of first generation immigrants.
That may occur and is a problem. However, there's no reason Christian, Sikh, Hindu, atheist and Jewish husbands can't beat their wives into accepting certain arbitrations.

There's an obvious problem with the fundamental concept of equality before the law if we were to ban Sharia arbitrations, and not others.
 

SnowCold

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Imitation Saccharin said:
Now would that be French Canadian or English Canadian? Newfie or Prairie? Aboriginal or colonist?
I'm probblly gonna make myself look like an idiot, but aren't aboriginals native Austarilians?
 

Agema

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SnowCold said:
Imitation Saccharin said:
Now would that be French Canadian or English Canadian? Newfie or Prairie? Aboriginal or colonist?
I'm probblly gonna make myself look like an idiot, but aren't aboriginals native Austarilians?
Not really stupid, no. The word is most commonly applied to Australian aborigines, but it can be applied to any race who were the first identifiable inhabitants of any land.