Glad to see that after all these months you're still a naive moron Therumancer.
Therumancer said:
It's like this, the whole world is shades of gray. We could argue about who is right and wrong, but it all comes down to perspective. Nobody wakes up in the morning and goes "gee, I feel like being really evil today". Like most things this ultimatly comes down to "us or them".
Bullshit. That's just an excuse people like you make for themselves so they can go to sleep at night. Yes, the world is full of shades of grey, but what you're proposing is still evil. You're talking about genocide just because you don't like a bunch of people.
If we go back to who is at fault for what, we'd go back towards like the Crusades with Muslims deciding to take the Holy Land for themselves,
One group of Muslims who, by the time the first crusade actually made it to the Holy Land, had been overthrown by a nicer group of Muslims who offered peace with the crusaders. The crusaders then promptly slaughtered them and all the jews. So if anything it's the Christians fault for being bloodthirsty savages back then again and again. Yet, I don't see you proposing we kill them all for their long history of crimes against the world. Why not? Because most happen to be nicer and the wackos aren't as prompinant as compared to the whackos in Islam.
The bottom line is that I see things as having gotten to the point where a peaceful resolution is impossible.
And what exactly is your experience in foriegn affairs "Mr. Ambassador?" What makes you more qualified to make that judgement call then the people who get paid to deal and comment on this.
We just keep going this way, they are just going to keep picking at the US, until eventually they get some suitcase nukes and we start losing cities or whatever.
Yes, because suitcase nukes are
sooooooooooo easy to get. Where the fuck are they supposed to get these hypothetical suitcase nukes? Did Russia open up a Nukes R Us or what? It would be a fucking mircale and a half if they could get one working.
At that point we might use our military like it's intended to be used, but it will be too late.
Oh sure. Somehow these terrorists are supposed to sneak multiple suitcase nukes into the US from countries that don't have the cabability to even make regular nukes (with two exceptions). And then this hypothetical scenario somehow cripples the US....
Tom Clancy you are not.
Also, for the record the US is simply the dominant globally power/leader of the western world. We're the big target, if we go down, or fall from prominance, the Muslims will just go after someone else. See the issue is basically Islamics against non-Islamics, the US is just the current face.
Except for all the muslims living in the US and Western World.
People are short sighted and don't want to see it while the US is acting as the official meat shield, but in the end everyone else is on their hit list as well.
No, see people know how crazy these terrorists are, but they also know the reason they got this way was because the US went into the middle east and started fucking around with things. So yeah, it's the US' fault that this is all happening and now everybody has to help clean up their mess.
As far as slotting off the rest of the world, generally speaking I don't care.
Naturally, because you're an idiot.
In the end everyone gets upset with the US anyway because we're the big boy, and they know we aren't going to do anything about criticism.
We hate you because you tend to be dicks about everything. Also because of country music.
Everyone hated the brits when they were in charge too, and frankly every dominant power (France, Germans, Spanish, Romans, etc...) got their turn it's just most existed before the information age and/or were a lot more aggressive than we were. Bad things to say about Rome? Committ sedition? Well guess what, you and your entire village/country/region has just gotten itself wiped out. Go running around England saying "gee, I think we'd really be better under French Leadership, our king is fink" and you've got a noose with your name on it (and you didn't even have the internet to broadcast it, all you'd need is 10 people to hear you and one of them to tell a local constable).
Of course all these scenarios took place centuries or even mellinia ago, and so can't accurately be compared to the modern civilised age.
We won't lose Japan as a trading partner unless we're very stupid. We have Japan under occupation. It's one of our major staging grounds for the region, and we have it covered with naval bases. Their SSDF aside (which we LET them have) the Navy could pretty much cleanse the entire island chain of life and civilization inside of 5 minutes if they really wanted to. People tend to forget this.
Because you'd never go through with it. Anyone who gave the order would get strung up pretty quickly, and the Navy wouldn't follow that order anyway since it's blatantly illegal.
To be blunt our relationship with Japan is a wierd love/hate thing. In part we're responsible for their (very slow) progression and keeping their xenocidal tendencies in check. On the other we're also protecting them from being conquered or wiped out. Despite how it might seem a LOT of people down there hate Japan, and have a list of reasons going back before World War II. If the US wasn't sitting there I think relations between them and nations like China, and Korea would change dramatically and well... I'm not sure how long Japan would last. For all their whining about American occupation I think a lot of them realize this too. A lot of their diplomatic relations exist because they were formed as Japan while playing "host" to overwhelming American firepower.
Whatever you say Mr. Ambassador.
As far as China goes, let me be honest: I would have started a massive military assault on China before the 9/11 attacks given the option.
Oh yeah, it's not like they have thousands of
fucking nukes! Not like they are allies with Russia. Not like it would cause global fucking aramgeddon.
Does anyone even take you seriously anymore?
People have seen this "Red Dragon Rising" thing coming for a while, a transition of the economy from West to East, a build up of military technology in the region, a rise of saber rattling, racism, and xenophobia, etc...
And a lot more men then women. It's hard to take the threat seriously when they have no way of sustating their population.
We allowed all of this to happen because we're nice guys and pretty much decided that keeping China relatively isolated would be the humane thing to do, as opposed to killing an enemy pre-emptively based on it's potential.
Also again because of the fact that attacking them would result in nuclear holocaust.
This has proven to be a mistake as time has gone on.
Yes ladies and gentlement, continuing to exist is a really bad mistake. I'm sure we can all agree on that. /sarcasm
Right now China is no military threat, but they are rapidly becoming one as they develop new Submarines (like the yuan class) and the Navy and Air Force to get their massive population/military where they need to to fight. They don't have it yet, but they are constructing it, and we've had them demonstrating their weapons by doing things like tagging the Kitty Hawk (ie proving their subs could sink a US Carrier).
Of course at the end of the day, they can't move their massive military because they need it in China to keep their own population under control. The only reason they aren't stains on the wall yet is because they can put any location in china under martial law and enforce it. Not to mention that they just can't export their military strength because of how many troops they have. Even with their new toys, they still have to maintain supply lines to feed all their troops and get them ammo they need to fight. So from a logistical standpoint, they can not defend their own borders, launch an attack on anyone not right next to them AND protect their supply lines.
For centuries people have believed every war "couldn't happen" for reasons of trade and econmics. We're no more right about this than Rome was when they were ignoring the Barbarians literally at their gates for those reasons.
Oh sure, and you know better then everyone in DC and across the world who don't see this scenario happening?
With China the issue isn't just Communism (even if I don't agree with it) but things like racism and national/ethnic destiny. China's culture/policies would very much make non-Chinese slaves or second class citizens.
And they will keep these slaves in line how exactly? Because they would need to turn every last Chinese citizen into soliders to be able to police such a large area as the entire world.
As far as their economy goes, it only matters until they actually have the weapons they need. Once they have them, why bother to trade if they can just conquer and take whatever they need?
Mutally Assured Destruction and Scortched Earth policies. For all their saber rattling they know that the world is useless to them in a nuclear winter.
Even if they fail to get the whole world, they will at least have more living space for their population.
Yes, because there's no way the rest of the world would strike back at them from attacking in the first place.
Honestly, did you even study the cold war?
On top of that, let's say China *DOESN'T* make a bid for world conquest (and honestly with the military they are building there really isn't any purpose), and instead simply becomes the dominant world power. We saw China's social policy in action during the Olympics in how they cleared people away, and forced the "unsightly" to stay inside. To say nothing of their attitudes on free speech in general. They are also a nation without honor. At least when accused of doing something wrong for no viable reason the US takes things seriously. When it came to The Olympics... something that is trivial overall when you get down to it, China was caught either cheating or making a mistake in allowing some of their athletes to play. Rather than apologizing and rectifying the mistake we saw a MASSIVE coverup and some of the most blatent disrespect for the global community I can think of. It was a little thing, and I guess that's why it matters. That's why it's purely a question of honor since nothing else was really at stake.
They'll either change or become bloodstains on the wall. Sooner or later they'll piss of their population enough to start a civil war. Or their One-child-policy will reach the point where there is an even bigger male-to-female ratio.
As far as the age of the athletes being a big deal (those who argue "well they did it, they deserve recognition) it's important to note that age is a big deal when it comes to gymnastics, figure skating, and other sports, the younger the more flexible. This is why older folks and adults don't do things at the same competitive level, they just can't. The real pros do less impressive routines as "ice dancers" through their lives.
Over the years many athletes have been unable to compete, or unable to compete in their physical prime for the sport because of the age policies. Letting those girls compete was unfair to anyone else who was overlooked due to age over the years. Given the option other countries could have doubtlessly produced other (younger) athletes who were otherwise overlooked and there is no guarantee anyone would have went with the same teams they used.
Okay seriously, why the fuck are you even arguing about this? How the fuck did you start ranting about China in a topic about Sharia law? ARe you just so deranged that you have to start raging against these people?
A lot of China-lovers think it's no big deal, but it's a very big deal, and it says a lot about China given the spirit of the games. America has a scandal, people shout it from the rooftops, while we ultimatly take responsibility for it. China has a similar problem, and well... let's just say I'm wary about these guys becoming any more powerful.
China are dicks. We've known this for decades. They don't hide that they are dicks. What's your point?
The point of this ramble on China is pretty much that we should have pre-emptively attacked them long ago (which the US is not wise enough to do). I think we'd have more support than many people think (and would have had even more 10 years ago). I think things will be worse now, but in the end we should still do it BEFORE their military machine gets any larger or more sophisticated.
Cold War. Mutally Assured Destruction. Nuclear Winter. China has so many nuclear weapons that fighting them will only result in the destruction of the entire world.
As far as economics go, well if we go to war, we no longer acknowlege the debt to them. When we're done they are either gone, or surrendering and of course the cessation of debt plus "tribute" (however we frame it) is of course going to be part of any deal, along with of course greatly limiting things like what China is allowed to build up for a military and transportation technology (in general).... not saying this would be easy (big war) but I think we could both win it, and benefit from winning it. I also think that as time goes on our chances of winning go down, and in the end if we don't throw the first punch they will when the odds are further in their favor.
Oh yeah, because having no debts with them is really worth dying over....
I absolutely agree with you there. The fundamentalist mindset of "I am right, therefore everyone who thinks differently is wrong" is destructive on every single level. Absolutely no good ever comes from extremism, hatred, and dogma.
