TJC said:
I don't think so. Moriarty died at Reichenbach Falls (unless you listen to Alan Moore) whereas Holmes only faked his death. It appears to have been the same in Sherlock, leaving Jim a corpse and Sherlock alive but in hiding from Watson.
"Sherlock" and "Elementary"
- Thread starter Sixcess
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When BBC's Sherlock was aired, I thought oh god another detective series with an awkward antisocial misunderstood genius talking jibberish. House meets 'The Social Network'. A step by step overdone formula....
Then I caught a bit of Sherlock and it was done so well.... it was clever and Sherlock wasn't the generic weirdo you come to expect in these types of shows/movies. Each mystery and plot was unique and impressive. You could watch it again and see the little hints that all make sense now. When you watch the episode for the first time you actually have a chance of deducing the twist because most events are logical.
Then I thought oh god.. Elementary..let me watch it then. Turned out to be what I feared Sherlock would be. A weirdo with average IQ surrounded by idiots. He solves crime with blanket statements. They have to establish his not gay straight away in the first 5mins of the pilot so American audiences don't panic, which just shows the demographic they are aiming for. And you can't immersive yourself like in sherlock. An example is from the trailer...he walks into a room and he says 'what about the panic room...the ground is uneven thus a heavy object is there'. This shows how he is smarter then the dumbass cops but not the audience as there is no way the audience can notice this on a screen.
After 3 episodes I gave up. Does it get better?
Then I caught a bit of Sherlock and it was done so well.... it was clever and Sherlock wasn't the generic weirdo you come to expect in these types of shows/movies. Each mystery and plot was unique and impressive. You could watch it again and see the little hints that all make sense now. When you watch the episode for the first time you actually have a chance of deducing the twist because most events are logical.
Then I thought oh god.. Elementary..let me watch it then. Turned out to be what I feared Sherlock would be. A weirdo with average IQ surrounded by idiots. He solves crime with blanket statements. They have to establish his not gay straight away in the first 5mins of the pilot so American audiences don't panic, which just shows the demographic they are aiming for. And you can't immersive yourself like in sherlock. An example is from the trailer...he walks into a room and he says 'what about the panic room...the ground is uneven thus a heavy object is there'. This shows how he is smarter then the dumbass cops but not the audience as there is no way the audience can notice this on a screen.
After 3 episodes I gave up. Does it get better?
Yeah, you're probably right and I highly doubt the BBC writers are going to use such a cheap copout but I'm still secretly hoping for it because I loved Jim Moriaty as a villian and I was quite sad to see him go that early. Although it was AWESOME and so perfectly fitting for him.SonicWaffle said:
nah i'm just screwing with you man and plus when was the last time you seen a "better off ted" reference?.Sixcess said:
bout sums it up better than i could. maybe others don't see it the way i do but i have always seen lucy as the safe "minority" possibly the same way ppl can look at obama as the white man's black president (hopefully i dont offend with that one)SonicWaffle said:The show Kung Fu was written as a Bruce Lee vehicle. He was just a bit too Asian, so the role was instead given to Carradine, who apparently lookied a little bit Asian while still being white enough to be acceptable to audiences of the time as a hero.
Presumably the comparison @lechat is trying to draw is that Lucy Liu, while genuinely Asian, is seen as a "safer" and more white-friendly Asian than most. Don't ask me why, because I don't really see it
That does come up a couple of times, particularly in the earlier stories, but in general Lestrade and Gregson are grateful for Holmes' expertise and more often than not are the ones to call him to the scene of a crime. Resentment and dislike is more likely to be shown by local police outside London who are unfamiliar with Holmes and his methods.SonicWaffle said:
He does that a couple of times, and as a private consultant who is not actually paid by the authorities he feels morally justified in doing so. I think the story you are thinking of is "The Abbey Grange", in which Holmes acknowledges that a jury might or might not recognise the 'murder' as self defence - though it's clear that Holmes thinks that it definitely was. Considering that the murdered man was a brute, a bully and a wife beater, neither he nor Watson have much sympathy for the deceased.
Of course there is "Charles Augustus Milverton" where Holmes and Watson actually witness a man being murdered, and Holmes later tells Lestrade that he has no intention of investigating the crime because Milverton was such an odious and evil man - a career blackmailer who ruins lives and drives innocent people to suicide for his own profit - that he feels that killing him was just, morally if not in the eyes of the law.
But that's the only occassion I can think of where he actually blatantly obstructs the police. In other cases he merely doesn't share all of his findings with the police - a little high handed, but what they don't know won't bother them.
I thought it was adequate, since it is almost a direct modernisation of the story written by Conan Doyle when he attempted to kill off Holmes, only to have to write him again due to popular demand.Daveman said:
Having said that, I hated most aspects of that show. The stupid head hologram-things, Martin Freeman, the women. Sherlock himself was pretty good, but that was about it. Haven't watched elementary and don't intend to, so can't comment.
I think the same can be said of several prominent black and asian actors - Halle Berry seems to be a particular target for this kind of criticism...lechat said:
...and it's ironic that in the Old South any degree of african/african-american ancestry in a person of mixed race made them "black" in the eyes of most people, whereas now any degree of caucasian parentage makes them "not truly black", in the eyes of hardline black activists. That's why I call it reverse racism. Ironic, and rather sad, that they've adopted the thinking of their former opressors to attack people like Halle Berry and Barack Obama.
Even actors who are 'fully' of their ethnicity (oh christ, I can't stop using inverted commas in this post) get the same accusations thrown at them, because they're popular, and so tend to get cast in those kind of roles. How many times has Morgan Freeman played the wise old black man - the "magical negro" as Spike Lee once said. In a slightly different way I think Samuel L Jackson is very often cast as "the bad ass black dude" because he's mainstream enough to be unthreatening to white audiences.
But I think all of this says more about the USA's still very conflicted attitudes towards race rather than it does about the actors themselves.
Which, by a VERY long digression, brings me back to Lucy Liu in Elementary. As I said I think her casting is interesting because it's so blatantly not "an asian part" and it's still sadly quite rare to see that kind of casting. I think Will Smith has perhaps the best record of 'color blind casting'... but then he's probably seen as a sell out by some people as well. Sigh...
Anyway, I'd better stop now, before this digression ends up getting the whole thread shifted to Religion and Politics. We've come quite a long way, but it still seems very difficult to even discuss race without walking on eggshells.
TJC said:
I feel like just joining in cause this spoiler conversation seems fun. I hope Moriarty is alive, technically it is very possible to shoot yourself in the head without killing yourself, you just have to aim. Although it did look like a kill shot.
The real question is how on earth Sherlock did it. Must have had something to do with the cyclist who hits Watson. God I love that series.
I WANT MORE SHERLOCK.
The real question is how on earth Sherlock did it. Must have had something to do with the cyclist who hits Watson. God I love that series.
I WANT MORE SHERLOCK.
I was actually rather surprised when I saw the title of this thread, because I just started the Sherlock series at the behest of a friend.(I told her I would watch it if she watched Breaking Bad.) And it's actually pretty good, much to my surprise. I usually have a hard time trying to relate to overly-arrogant characters, but it's handled pretty well here. I'm only halfway through the third episode though, and I didn't know that this show was so mainstream. I guess thats a good thing.
I've seen a few previews for Elementary and wanted to see it at the time, but never got around to it. I love Lucy Lui, so I guess I'll have to put it on the bucket list.
I've seen a few previews for Elementary and wanted to see it at the time, but never got around to it. I love Lucy Lui, so I guess I'll have to put it on the bucket list.
I hadn't even heard of the show until I watched an episode with someone else (I don't really watch TV anymore), and personally, I was more surprised that Watson was a woman now than that she was asian. I'm also rather surprised people are stillt rying to argue that someone isn't ethnic enough or is something like that. So, you can be white, you can be a first generation immigrant who barely speaks understandable English, or you should just not be an actor?lechat said:
I love Sherlock and Elementary both. They are different enough that I don't really have to compare the two of them, the only real similarity is that they are both a modern setting for the series. I thought Moffat's writing was just fine, and I thought the Irene Adler episode was beautifully done. My main problem with Elementary is <spoiler= Spoiler> Irene Adler is dead to begin with
I hadn't quite put my finger on it, but I would agree with this statement. The deductions made in 'Elementary' are never mind blowing like the superhuman stuff that's standard fare in 'Sherlock'.Dangit2019 said:
Personally I prefer 'Sherlock'. I like the leads better, despite a longtime fandom of Dade Murphy alias Zero Cool (really was married to Angelina Jolie!) The color palette in 'Sherlock' tends to be more appealilng, whereas 'Elementary' goes for a darker atmosphere despite oftentimes comical plot twists as the end of the episode winds up. It often seems like they want to squeeze in a few too many twists. Then you find yourself asking - if Sherlock's so bright how did he miss all this?
The real killer in my opinion is this sub-plot of Lucy Liu wanting to delve into Sherlock's history, and be a 'real friend'. This adds entirely too much artificial drama to an otherwise interesting detective show.
Vinnie Jones watching soccer at all the crime scenes was classic
I'm enjoying Elementary much more than I thought I would, but for me there's absolutely no comparing it to Sherlock. Elementary is a kind of fun mystery show. Sherlock is literally the best show on television at the moment.
I must say I overwhelmingly prefer Sherlock over Elementary for many of the same reasons that people have already mentioned, in Elementary I do believe he is an average man in a room full of idiots, whereas Benedict Cumberbatch's Sherlock walks into the room believing he is the cleverest man there and he usually is. I also prefer the cast in Sherlock over the cast in Elementary.
yussss, sneaky secret messages are fun >8DMr F. said:
Just an aside, though, having Moriarty come back with MASSIVE GAPING HOLE IN THE BACK OF HIS HEAD would frankly not be the creepiest thing about him and only lightly underline his BATSHIT INSANITY. So yeah, here's to a long-living criminal genius for hire.
Elementary suffers from being a CBS show. CBS shows have annoying habits that compensates for their older audiences. Sherlock's personality is "safer" in the American show. The characters constantly repeat their roles out loud, even when the season is half over. The mysteries go through formulaic beats that can be applied to nearly every episode: anyone they actually arrest is a red herring, when they finally find their guy, they're usually frame up twist. When they reveal the killer, they always find easy damning evidence off screen to reveal (I could keep going). The show doesn't really take any risks. You could replace the leads with duo from Castle and not miss a beat.
Elementary is murder/mystery buttered popcorn to Sherlock's high end dessert. Elementary is about delivering consistent safe episodes in quantity for you to scoop into your mouth. Sherlock takes risks and adds ingredients that you might not expect (or even want in some cases), yet everything is necessary and works in concert with each other. You might not like everything about that dessert, but you respect the presentation and skill it demonstrates.
Elementary is murder/mystery buttered popcorn to Sherlock's high end dessert. Elementary is about delivering consistent safe episodes in quantity for you to scoop into your mouth. Sherlock takes risks and adds ingredients that you might not expect (or even want in some cases), yet everything is necessary and works in concert with each other. You might not like everything about that dessert, but you respect the presentation and skill it demonstrates.