Should Every Game Allow You to Choose Your Gender?

[Agayek]

Should Every Game Allow You to Choose Your Gender?

While playing Lichdom: Battlemage, Yahtzee decides to tackle to topic of gender diversity in choosing the character to you want to play.

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Well said Yahtzee. Yet again, you show an excellent command of language. Thanks for doing it.

 

[Biran53]

An interesting case is Samus Aran. A primarily silent protagonist who must be a woman regardless of player preference. She also is a BIT of a sex symbol, depending on depiction. While I always say there is nothing inherently wrong with being attractive and displaying that physicality... anyone who has played a Metroid game knows how its kinda weird that completing the game with a faster time or with 100% items allows us to see Samus in a skin tight suit or bikini, posing.

Prime might be the outlier, rewarding the player instead with an emotional scene featuring Samus reflecting over the damage she wrought.

So there is progress in some aspects. I think Samus still counts as a character, as she has a distinct personality and pathos. I hope future games can continue to convey her well. If we ever see another Metroid .

And you can make Samus a compelling character without her saying more than a few or no words!
.... looking at you, Other M...

 

[nuclearday]

An interesting case is Samus Aran. A primarily silent protagonist who must be a woman regardless of player preference. She also is a BIT of a sex symbol, depending on depiction. While I always say there is nothing inherently wrong with being attractive and displaying that physicality... anyone who has played a Metroid game knows how its kinda weird that completing the game with a faster time or with 100% items allows us to see Samus in a skin tight suit or bikini, posing.

Prime might be the outlier, rewarding the player instead with an emotional scene featuring Samus reflecting over the damage she wrought.

So there is progress in some aspects. I think Samus still counts as a character, as she has a distinct personality and pathos. I hope future games can continue to convey her well. If we ever see another Metroid .

And you can make Samus a compelling character without her saying more than a few or no words!
.... looking at you, Other M...

Yeah, I sometimes don't know what to think about Samus. I mean, it kind of blew my mind, in elementary school, to suddenly find out the character in the game was a girl. My friend and I got into some heated fights about that until I managed to get through the game and show him ("But his name is Samus!!")

So you've got a pretty kick-ass female character there, but like you said the reward for faster completion of the earlier titles was getting to see her in a space bikini after the credits (which is kind of why I played a lot of Super Metroid in my formative years...)

But I think you can have a character who is sexy and still be a good character. Maybe the objectification she goes through isn't ideal, but I think that's why it's important to look at individual games and examples instead of trying to apply broad generalizations over an array of examples. Not everything is going to be a clear-cut case of black and white, all or nothing.

 

[bazingabro]

This whole thing is something I'll never be able to understand. I guess some people really want to self-insert themselves into fantasy worlds and can't do that if the main character is not the same gender? That's really a shame, because you are missing out on a lot of amazing games by refusing to play as someone of the opposite gender, regardless of whether it's male or female.

Anime seems to be dominated by female characters, but that doesn't stop men from enjoying it. Hell, look at My Little Pony. Yet some women can't enjoy video games with male characters.

 

[manic_depressive13]

Honestly I'm a little surprised at Yahtzee. He always struck me as sort of disdainful of the gaming community, so it's odd that his opinion meshes so well with the dominant attitude. It's like having an uncle who's always ragging against conservatives, and then you find out that he's against gay marriage. Obviously disliking conservatives doesn't mean that you support gay marriage. But at the same time... you sort of thought it would.

 

[norashepard]

I think that if the developer isn't actively trying to say something about men, women, or specific relationships between the two (or going even further, trans people and such), they should allow the option to change. It gives a player who DOES prefer to play as a specific gender more enjoyment without hurting anyone (unless the modellers are just really lazy). Consider trans people again, who literally fight tooth and nail every day to be perceived as their gender in spite of bad luck during birth. Should they be forced to play a story as an avatar that makes them personally uncomfortable just because the developer is lazy? No, I don't think so, especially because it is so easy to make a gender flip, easier if you take the "Shepard" route and have them have the same name.

Again, though, if a game has something to say that can only be said with a specific gender, then yeah, no problem! Although, with enough creativity (and time), I find many of those games could still have a gender flip, and simply have it divert course in a different way for each. Perhaps a military shooter set during a time where women aren't allowed in active combat could have a male player out in the field taking down Racist McBadguy, while a female one is back at the base when it gets attacked. You could even re-use the levels too, having male player fight his way back to the base, and have female player fighting in the field after having escaped the attack on the base. All it would require would be extra level scripting, which from personal experience, is one of the easier things to do.

Also a quick rebuttal against one specific thing: Yahtzee said that it's actually worse for the hero who is rescuing the damsel, because he has to die over and over to save her. That's ridiculous. Unless the plot acknowledges the life system (like in Bio-Shock with the vita-chamber things, most players will assume that it's all one big uninterrupted story. AND second of all, being held against your will or even killed (permanently, I may add) still fucking sucks man! Idk that was just a ridic argument.

 

[nuclearday]

This whole thing is something I'll never be able to understand. I guess some people really want to self-insert themselves into fantasy worlds and can't do that if the main character is not the same gender? That's really a shame, because you are missing out on a lot of amazing games by refusing to play as someone of the opposite gender, regardless of whether it's male or female.

Anime seems to be dominated by female characters, but that doesn't stop men from enjoying it. Hell, look at My Little Pony. Yet some women can't enjoy video games with male characters.

Well, I'm sure there are some people who do refuse to play as any character that is unlike themselves - but I also don't think it's a situation where every single person who might want more or better female characters in games overall is going to have the most extreme viewpoint on the matter possible.

I think it's safe to say the moderate opinion would probably just like to see the option more often, and especially in cases where it makes sense to do so. (I do think it's debatable whether we're "already there" or not of course.)

Just as there's men who will not play a female character no matter the circumstances, there probably are women who would refuse to play a male character - but then we're getting into broad generalizations, which have a tendency to be rather inaccurate.

 

[bojac6]

And that's why so many white males can say "I don't care abotu a self-insert, I want something fun and enjoyable" and feel like they've contributed. As you said, look in the mirror and ask yourself why. And the answer is I want to play heroes from other walks of life. Sure you can point to games like Risk of Rain and ask who cares, but when it comes to games where there are actually main characters, it does matter.

The fact that you say 'white male' in itself is a bigoted view. For about two years now I've discovered that *gasp* I might not be 'white' at all - I am a descendant of the Mongolian race, who rode down the steppes and conquered my ancestors. Based on haplostudies and marginal critical evaluation, sure, but still prominent enough to be considered as fact. Now am I white? Are mongols 'white'? What is the definition of 'white'? Are albinos white, or are you referring to a non-tanned stereotypical Caucasian male? Is a Southern Italian white, or is he swarthy? What about someone from Florida with a lot of mixing going on in their ancestry in the past, but ending up tanned and swarthy from two 'white' parents?

It's all about perspective here, and unlike you claim to want it, you already have only one pipeline you steer through. You don't want anything else, you have your own - game set and match.

What you replied to me about Risk Of Rain characters proves this - my intention was to wholly take your clueless behind and drag it out into the open for all to see.

We're not talking about genetic race in this discussion we're talking about societal race. Actually, we weren't talking about just race, we were talking about minorities in general. How society views people of different origins, skin color, religion, gender, etc. Very few variations in these are ever explored in games.

I don't understand your second paragraph. I just can't follow it. Are you saying I don't really want diversity because I'm happy with what's coming out? Are you saying that wanting diversity is somehow contrary to wanting diversity because the real diverse viewpoint would be accepting of non-diverse viewpoints? I don't get it.

I admit, I had to look up Risk of Rain. It is a rogue-like platformer hybrid something. It did not appear to be a game where the characterization or dialogue particularly mattered, instead it was a game that was more focused on gameplay. If it turns out it fits in in the category of games with fully characterized protagonists instead of a game where you're just playing an avatar to complete puzzles, thats entirely irrelevant to the discussion of whether games should be more inclusive.

 

[manic_depressive13]

Blame that on my non-perfect English and time of the day. I meant 'declension'.

I asked you if 'demure' is a feminine trait. You said if any men in Dark Souls were demure. I would answer that most of the male characters were quite sullen, composed, shy, not too keen of talking too much, kept to themselves - I'd even go ahead and call them demure.

"Also, how many women were allowed a crazy chuckle?"

I admit that is one of the weirdest things I've ever heard a feminist (?) view on, but I do remember the skeleton merchane with a womanly voice did have a crazy 'cackle'.

But there was also a seemingly male-voiced skeleton who had a crazy cackle. I ask you this - did you consider both of their genders to be set simply by their voices? What if they were transgender before they died? Pre-op? What makes you base the sex and gender of a skeleton based simply on the voice provided, or their name? I know women with manly voices and have androgynous names, and likewise men who have androgynous names with feminine voices.

Who is the bigot here in the class of assumptions?

Yeah...

She calls herself a lady.

Ah, go down along the side to reach the depths of the Burg.
Only umkempt crooks and liars to be found there.
Hardly a place for a lady like myself!
But who knows, maybe you'd fit right in?
Vee hee hee hee hee!

See that mad snipe? Fucking Boss.

Being demure is more than just being polite or timid. It's a specific, rather gendered way of behaving. None of the men in Dark Souls are demure.

 

[The_Echo]

Y'know, maybe I'm just dumb, but I don't fully understand why anyone cares about which gender their player character is.

I certainly don't.

Do people actually want to pretend to be these characters?
'Cause, for me, I can never do that. Even in games where I make my own character, I'm always completely removed from the PC as an identity. They are not me, I am not them, their story is not my story. I can understand ~immersion~ as a reason but at the same time, I've found more immersion in Journey, a game where I'm probably not even human and have no apparent sex, than I've found in any other game. Immersion isn't really tied to how much you 'identify' with the player character.

Are people incapable of "identifying" with things that aren't their gender, or race, or whatever? Are they uncomfortable with it or something?
Because I think that's kind of small-minded, frankly. Personally, I don't have an issue playing as Clementine even though I'm not a little girl of vague racial background. Similarly, I have no problem with playing as Mister Mosquito even though I'm not a mosquito. There is no difference to me. I don't see why there ever would be.

And then there's the idea of telling someone what to do. And when that's applied to a creator (developers in this case), I can't really condone that mentality. A creator should be free to create whatever they want and not have to kneel to the pressures of some arbitrary bullshit about what "should" or "should not" be in their game. (This isn't specific to gender.)

So, should every game allow you to choose your gender?
No, of course not.

 

[Thanatos2k]

If you want your main character to be bland, have little personality, and sabotage the narrative of your game - by all means let the player choose the gender.

Only Mass Effect has been able to have a strong customizable character, and that's due to both good writing and excellent voice acting. No other game comes close.

If it's a game that's more about the content than the story like Skyrim then a blank customizable character is fine. But if you want your game to be narrative driven, a customizable character sabotages this goal.

Better to have a game like The Witcher where your character is already a character and then they let you choose stuff than a game where the main character is so characterless that even their gender can be switched without any impact to the story.

Also Yahztee, you got DANGEROUSLY close to addressing Gamergate!

Clearly someone's never played Saints Row...

No, I haven't. So good, there's two examples. The rest of my words remain true.

 

[StriderShinryu]

"But it hardly matters if a choice of gender is merely aesthetic and means nothing to the game, because it can still mean something to the audience"

And this is really the key point. Sure there are many games where you could say just a visual gender swap would have no real tangible impact at all, but that's no reason not to offer a gender option (or, as in the case of the Zelda games, to throw in a gender swap once in a while). The gameplay may not be changed at all, and that's cool. Maybe the story itself won't change at all, and that's cool too. But what about the perspective of the player? Why not open the game up to even just a little more appealing to someone who doesn't your standard Hetero White Dude, especially if admittedly the actual game will remain almost entirely the same?

 

[verdant monkai]

Nope.

You'd have to spend time writing 2 characters and that would take a lot longer than just the one.

 

[Thanatos2k]

If you want your main character to be bland, have little personality, and sabotage the narrative of your game - by all means let the player choose the gender.

Only Mass Effect has been able to have a strong customizable character, and that's due to both good writing and excellent voice acting. No other game comes close.

If it's a game that's more about the content than the story like Skyrim then a blank customizable character is fine. But if you want your game to be narrative driven, a customizable character sabotages this goal.

Better to have a game like The Witcher where your character is already a character and then they let you choose stuff than a game where the main character is so characterless that even their gender can be switched without any impact to the story.

Also Yahztee, you got DANGEROUSLY close to addressing Gamergate!

Clearly someone's never played Saints Row...

No, I haven't. So good, there's two examples. The rest of my words remain true.

Do you have an example of a customizable main character interfering with the narrative?

White Knight Chronicles.

And would the story of the Witcher really change much beyond pronouns if Geralt was a woman?

Geralt could not have the same personality as a female, or it simply wouldn't fit. The relationships with other characters and the relationship dynamics and motivations wouldn't be the same, unless you're going the Dragon Age 2 route and making every character inexplicably bisexual. Come to think of it, use Dragon Age 2 as another example.

 

[Yahtzee Croshaw]

Haunting Ground had a female protagonist for story reasons, but I'm not sure where "3/4 of the people after her are (apparently) rapists" (the one that isn't is arguably even worse) puts it in the scheme of things. I wonder how Bayonetta would have been received if you could have been a man wearing a hair (and beard!) suit that falls off for the more powerful attacks.

I would love to have played a Bayonetto where a guy's clothing is actually his beard, and he becomes more and more nude the more he ramps up the damage.

Make him look like a fat Lumberjack and I'm game.