Should Feminism and Gaming Mix?

[Fox12]

I don't get the question. I mean, should sexism and gaming mix?

Sexism as a result of lazy writing is still sexism. Writing the issue off doesn't solve anything. "The game wasn't being racist because the writers were actively evil, it was just the result of lazy writing." This excuse doesn't fly in any other situation, so why should it here? This would also suggest that fighting sexism in games would lead to better written games, which is a good thing. If games represent someone in a negative fashion then gamers have a right to offer their opinions on it.Yes, this includes negative opinions, and no, they shouldn't have to stop talking about it just because you want them too. If you want them to stop complaining then offer a better argument as to why sexism doesn't exist in gaming, because this doesn't cut it. Norithics pretty much summed it up, the foundation of your argument is a logical fallacy.

One person was annoying on a game. Go play COD and count how many adult males act the same way, not even counting bratty teenagers. I also find it interesting that when someone posts a pro feminist page people complain about how they should have posted on one of the existing forums, but on a page like this I see almost none.

 

[carnex]

All those things you mentioned could happen to a woman though. -_- Pregnancy, as much as some yaoi fangirls may want it not to be, is something that can happen to a woman only.

I wouldn't bother with replaying further. Her arguing is based on

The real thing is: Pregnancy is something that only happens to women, so we can use pregnancy to discriminate against women. It's as simple as that.

And when someone belives that, you can't have a discussion.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

--

One of the reason for that bias is insecurity. You never know when female employee is going to get pregnant and leave for 18-24 months. She might never do that, but fear is based on realistic problem. So unless woman out qualifies a man, he is usually seen as more reliable choice. Nature screwed women over on this one.

You never know when a male employee is going to get cancer and have to stop work during treatment for 6-12 months, or longer, and if he will relapse. You never know when a male employee is going to have a nervous breakdown and end up in the psych ward for several months. You never know when a male employee is going to be hit by a car crossing the street.

All employees can end up with a health condition. Female employees potentially getting pregnant is missing the forest for the trees, and is still sexist.

All those things you mentioned could happen to a woman though. -_- Pregnancy, as much as some yaoi fangirls may want it not to be, is something that can happen to a woman only.

snip

I don't agree with your evidence or the conclusions drawn from it. I am going to continue to call out sexism, objectification, and damsel tropes when I see them. I am going to support the right of other people to do so. I don't believe in the "tyranny" of social pressure, because if you bow to it when you don't believe that you should, it just means you are too weak to stand on your own.

Games have a right to be sexist and journalism has a right to be sensationalist and people have a right to talk about it. You may not like what is being said, but that is part of the price of freedom. Maybe you should have a go at not being sexist and enjoying freedom, my friend.

Have a nice day.

"All that evidence you just gave me? Whatever, I'll ignore it."

Seriously dude, at least go through all of it and refute them instead of using this hand waveall of it as if none of it had anything to say. Responding like you just did just makes you look like someone that's decided to take their ball and go home.

I wasn't talking to you, if game developers have a right to be lazy then so do I.

Okay. Hope you enjoyed your time with your soap box then. I'll just continue to debate with the people that give enough of a crap about their side of the debate to put some actual effort into their arguments. Bye.

 

[Gamer_152]

Sorry, I don't think you get to strawman and attempt to invalidate the arguments of all feminists with regards to video games with that awful logic. While much of the gaming community may not be able to deal with it, feminism and gaming can and should mix.

 

[Redd the Sock]

Henry Ford's efforts were more about reducing employee turnover than market creation. It worked out that way, but it also invalidates the comparison.

This is a matter of perspective based on who you asked. Far from invalidating the comparison, all it does is change the reasoning, which I would argue doesn't matter in the first place.

In response to the rest of your post, continually pandering to the same audience with bigger and bigger production values without an eye on diversifying what you offer is a sure way to divebomb your nest egg and everything you've ever worked for. It makes sense to me that you'd have this philosophy working in finance, but economics in general has far more to it than what is contained within the science of dollar metrics. Indeed, it is this scared and electric fear of slowing the gravy train that's brought so many aspects of our economy to its knees, and it's only through ingenuity that people like myself have even survived this long.

Perhaps there is merit to actively asking women to get more involved, but those casuals didn't ask, and yet they threw their money in the pot when the ideas came around. That means somebody took a risk and it paid off.

While all true, it doesn't invalidate my statement that it's someone else's money and risk to take and thus it's easier to see opportunity. Yeah, you can have a Final Fantasy or a Wii, but you can also have a Spirits Within or a Virtual Boy. That's why risk is mitigated and markets tested for large projects. A casual game that was cheap to make won't kill the company if no one buys it, while AAA games these days can sell millions and still be financial failures. Guess how much chance they want to take on the big game than needs the most market it can get. All this is still predicated on the idea that female leads are a new idea, not on that's been tried in the past to poor results. You aren't asking for a shot in the dark at a new idea, You're asking companies to try things they've seen aren't working hoping for a different result this time. It's like asking for a new western movie after The Lone Ranger bombed.

While I don't give corporate executives much credit, I do think they have to know about how much gender is a topic these days, but they don't respond by listening to forums, they ask how well Time and Eternity sold, or how well Fatal Frame's doing on PSN, or how often Female is checked for sex when filling in a product registration, or how many female Saint's leaders are uploaded by players. I can't say there isn't room for improvement, but I also can't fault a business for not jumping to repeat a past failure hoping for better this time. From Parasite Eve to Fatal Frame to Beyond Good and Evil to Xenosaga, to any number for Final Fantasies, to Heavenly Sword to Mirror's Edge to Remember Me and dozens of others, there are a lot of games that did passibly to bad that need to be overcome before women will be seen as a demographic to market to without question. It's why I think Women need more positive involvement, not internet complaining. Companies would take the whole issue more seriously if something in the digital library shot up in sales as a sign that this demographic did actually exist. Without that, they become inclined to file it with stuff from PETA, One Million Moms, and other moralist groups that just want to tell them what to do.

 

[Racecarlock]

Oh, okay, so because one woman overreacted to a thing that happened online means that there are no problems and that the MANY MANY people who send requests to woman that include fucking in gas station bathrooms and nude pictures don't exist.

That's almost as stupid as saying racism is over because we elected a black president.

 

[Loonyyy]

--

One of the reason for that bias is insecurity. You never know when female employee is going to get pregnant and leave for 18-24 months. She might never do that, but fear is based on realistic problem. So unless woman out qualifies a man, he is usually seen as more reliable choice. Nature screwed women over on this one.

You never know when a male employee is going to get cancer and have to stop work during treatment for 6-12 months, or longer, and if he will relapse. You never know when a male employee is going to have a nervous breakdown and end up in the psych ward for several months. You never know when a male employee is going to be hit by a car crossing the street.

All employees can end up with a health condition. Female employees potentially getting pregnant is missing the forest for the trees, and is still sexist.

All those things you mentioned could happen to a woman though. -_- Pregnancy, as much as some yaoi fangirls may want it not to be, is something that can happen to a woman only.

Entirely true. But they occur in different rates. Similarly, some conditions will only occur to a man. If someone wants to make a case for not hiring women based on the probability they won't be available due to pregnancy, one must also consider the potential unavailability of any candidate.

The real thing is: Pregnancy is something that only happens to women, so we can use pregnancy to discriminate against women. It's as simple as that.

And when someone belives that, you can't have a discussion.

That's a nice dismissal of my entire critique of your understanding of the reliability of an employee based on my estimation of the motives of someone who would do that. So you can assume the motives of women, RE Childbirth, and employment, but I can't assume that those who make a decision which is sexist are sexist?

You're wrong. I've already discussed all of the salient points, despite the fact that I believe that your suggestion is sexist. You're just picking a spot to take convenient offense to avoid arguing the merits of your claim.

 

[Eve Charm]

Eh there are way to many pages of what looks off topic at this point so I'm just gonna weight in. Saying it like you are in the topic and op I'm going to assume it's the bad kind of Feminism an no that shouldn't mix with games. What it's basically doing is saying -lets allow harsh Feminist comments and attacks- and what difference is it from Racism, sexism, and any other isms and gender/sexuality issues you want to come up with. No the community playing the video games shouldn't be screaming insults like that so it shouldn't be mixing and isn't a good thing if it is mixing.

 

[Fox12]

I don't get the question. I mean, should sexism and gaming mix?

Sexism as a result of lazy writing is still sexism. Writing the issue off doesn't solve anything. "The game wasn't being racist because the writers were actively evil, it was just the result of lazy writing." This excuse doesn't fly in any other situation, so why should it here? This would also suggest that fighting sexism in games would lead to better written games, which is a good thing.

I doubt that, they'd probably just stop using cliches that are deemed sexist and start using more of the cliches that aren't. Becoming a better writer isn't as simple as 'stop using these tropes and the only thing left will be good writing'.

No, I agree, but it stands to reason that if writers began to put more thought into type of material they were creating then their writing as a whole would marginally improve. More importantly writing as a whole would be seen as more of an investment, so it also stands to reason that more resources would go into hiring better writers. Regardless, I'd prefer to see less sexist cliches, even if other cliches are adopted in their stead.

Of course writing hasn't been all that good for Hollywood lately either, and they don't even have gameplay to fall back on, so I suppose it can't be much better for games :/

 

[DracoSuave]

At no point is any evidence offered. Therefore, any sane rational individual must discount this augment as simple rhetoric.

One is required to provide evidence for extraordinary claims.

If one makes the claim 'Gravity exists' one doesn't have to because that is not an extraordinary claim.

'Some people are misogynist sexists in the gaming community' is a similar claim that describes an ubiquitous phenomenon that is commonly observed to the point where it does not need to be proven.

Insisting on evidence for trivial claims is merely a filibuster to actual intelligent discussion and is not a reasonable argument tactic.

 

[Yuuki]

Alright, censorship is a fair enough worry. However, every form of media cannot escape all kinds of criticism - that is what art is all about. Even if an understanding was made to subdue sexualized females in games, but not in all of them, there will still be some form of feminist (and other groups) backlash. That's just a fact of free speech; someone will get hurt at some point. Since this is the case, preventing feminism from having any say is a little short-sighted. If some sort of agreement is made to have at least some games meeting feminist demand (and granted, since we are still met with the issue of male developers and a male-centered audience, this would be minimal at best), but other games with the usual diatribe are also still allowed, would that be agreeable?

Then that's already the case. There are quite a few games with strong/empowered females which I won't list here, because they've been listed in a hundred other similar threads time and again (look them up ). People are calling for MORE games with strong females, but nobody knows (not even feminists themselves) what "more" implies. 20%? 50%? What portion is agreeable? It's easy to say "well anything more than what we have currently will be good" but it gives no indication as to when people will shut up about any entertainment medium having a lack of females.

Granted basically ANY negative/exploitative depiction of a female is going to piss-off some feminist or another because they often have trouble understanding their own standards (most feminism blogs/sites are dripping with double standards and bias). But that's fine with me because I don't really consider such people worthy of any attention, they are free to entertain their notions in their own void.

 

[6_Qubed]

This question came up couple weeks ago in a blog. It detailed one guy's experience playing an online multiplayer game. He performed a violent action against a male avatar that he has done hundreds of times before. A female voice, who was playing that particular male avatar, accused him of being sexist for doing that to her. If that wasn't enough of a buzzkill, half an hour later, she tracked him down in the game and continue to berate him.

I'm for women equality. There are serious issues around the world where that kind of passion and dedication is needed. When you take up an issue in gaming, and claim that you are doing so because you are a feminist. You are devaluing what feminism is about.

What it's actually about is faux rage. Being self-righteously upset about a non-issue. So, you can release whatever anger and stress you've dealt with that day on somebody anonymous online. Yeah, doing that is fun and addictive. Yet, it really does negative impact.

So, isn't about enough time to call B.S. on anyone who try to make a mountain over a molehill about sexism. When you take the time and breakdown their argument about videogames. It really comes down to lazy writing in general. Not some evil patriarchy trying to keep the women down by having Princess Peach getting kidnapped in every game.

Man oh man, I could just tear this apart and pick at each individual piece. I think I shall!

This question came up couple weeks ago in a blog. It detailed one guy's experience playing an online multiplayer game. He performed a violent action against a male avatar that he has done hundreds of times before. A female voice, who was playing that particular male avatar, accused him of being sexist for doing that to her. If that wasn't enough of a buzzkill, half an hour later, she tracked him down in the game and continue to berate him.

Are you familiar with the word "hearsay"? Or, in the sage and timeless words of the Internet, "pics or it didn't happen".

I'm for women equality. There are serious issues around the world where that kind of passion and dedication is needed. When you take up an issue in gaming, and claim that you are doing so because you are a feminist. You are devaluing what feminism is about.

Nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnot necessarily. Certainly a female troll claiming to be a feminist to justify what amounts to regular trolling would be a bad thing, but that doesn't take away from legitimate complaints a female gamer may have about being treated like crap in video games and not wanting to be treated like crap.

What it's actually about is faux rage. Being self-righteously upset about a non-issue. So, you can release whatever anger and stress you've dealt with that day on somebody anonymous online. Yeah, doing that is fun and addictive. Yet, it really does negative impact.

So, isn't about enough time to call B.S. on anyone who try to make a mountain over a molehill about sexism.

...You do realize this school of thought cuts both ways, right?

When you take the time and breakdown their argument about videogames. It really comes down to lazy writing in general.

And speaking of lazy writing, it's kind of difficult to take seriously whatever point you're trying to make (which, near as I can tell, is that "women should not be complaining about how they are treated in video games", which is bullshit) when you can't even be bothered to check your goddamn spelling and grammar. Seriously, it's not that difficult. Commas and periods? Not interchangeable.

Not some evil patriarchy trying to keep the women down by having Princess Peach getting kidnapped in every game.

Now this is just silly. Princess Peach isn't even in every game, because Nintendo wouldn't whore her out like that. They treat her like royalty, because that's who she is.

 

[Yuuki]

Street Fighter's a bit murkier. It seems like every last woman is dressed to to make guys drool, and some ladies if they're into that. <.<

To be fair, out of the 39 playable characters in Super Street Fighter IV only 8 are female, which is roughly 20.5%. Out of which an even smaller percentage are what I would call "drool material". On the opposite end of the spectrum quite a few of the male fighters are bare-chested and/or wearing nothing other than shorts.

Regarding female fighters in SSFIV, I would consider the below as "oversexualized":

Spoiler

> Cammy - As oversexualized as she is, I guarantee you the community would absolutely lose their SHIT if she ever removed from the most popular SF titles, everything from her fighting style to her leotard is very much iconic and part of her identity. Her clothes makes no sense considering she's supposed to be part of some elite military unit, but if you change her clothes I guarantee that the very next day you'll see 10 mods to put her back into the leotard lol. Cammy is just...Cammy.

> Juri - Going for an "evil *****" thing, she does have a rather weird thing going on with her lower half revealing her ass (and front). They could have done a better job with her clothing, it's hard to take her seriously as an antagonist.

The below I would classify as "acceptably sexy", i.e. beautiful but not in a titillating way in any fashion:

Spoiler

> Chun-Li - From a fighting standpoint everything about her attire makes sense, that's putting aside the fact that her dress is basically some kind of fighting-adapted Cheongsam (traditional chinese dress). She's supposed to have INSANELY strong and highly flexible legs to do stuff like Flash Kick, Spinning Bird Kick, etc. Her clothing completely covers her top-half and as much of her lower half as possible without restricting her legs (which are covered in stockings/hose). Also that dress is very much part of her character, iconic, Chinese design, etc.

> Sakura - Schoolgirl ahoy! To be honest I personally find nothing particularly sexy about Sakura, alright so she wears a skirt but that's an extremely common Japanese school uniform which you can spot literally anywhere in Japan right now (minus the boxing gloves and headband ). Her character as a whole is portrayed as very innocent, young/childish and rather carefree. Trying to imagine her sexing-it-up is just...eeggh, so wrong. She's Ryu's student and one of my favorite characters out of the SF series simply because she goes about doing everything with a super-eager attitude and a smile

The below I would classify as "not sexualized whatsoever":

Spoiler

> Makoto - Wears a full set of Karate Gi attire, fully covered. Portrayed as rather masculine/tomboyish, she's basically a female Ryu in appearance (except Ryu has his sleeves ripped off ).

> Ibuki - The Kunoichi, but unlike what you would expect a videogame female ninja to wear (revealing tight leather or something) Ibuki is covered head-to-toe in sensible Dojo clothing with baggy pants.

> Rose - The sorceress/mage. Her attire covers her entire body except the arms/shoulders, going for a very dressy-elegant look (dat huge magical scarf ), something you might spot a rich-people party.

> Crimson Viper - She wears a business suit + black heels and a tie, the only thing that stands-out about her is that she doesn't have her shirt buttoned all the way up and has her breast area slightly open.

Mind you I'm only taking about Super Street Fighter IV, but given the sheer size of the character roster I would consider SSFIV the best representative out of the SF series. It is very much the "complete" SF experience.

 

[carnex]

--

You forgot Elena who wears bikini, but with those legs, she could hardly be seen as sexy. Proportions are important or at least they are to me.

As for Sakura, Schoolgirl is one of major fetishes, especially among young adult males who drench themself in video games. The more inocently portayed, the sexier she is to that group.

Not that I think there is anything wrong with sexy characters mind you.

 

[Yuuki]

--

You forgot Elena who wears bikini, but with those legs, she could hardly be seen as sexy. Proportions are important.

As for Sakura, Schoolgirl is one of major fetishes, especially among young adult males who drench themself in video games. The more inocently portayed, the sexier she is to that group.

Amen to that, it is important to have a healthy dose of Japanese Schoolgirl whenever possible, it's good for the...umm...heart
As much as it is undeniable that Sakura exists to fill that specific fetish, I still find that as they've developed her I've categorized her into the "aww she's so eager and adorable" category rather than the "WOOO MAKE HER JUMP, WANNA SEE WHAT'S UNDER DAT SKIRT" category >_<

Elena isn't in the game yet, but I think she's part of the upcoming DLC. I would very much put her into the oversexualized category on the same level as Cammy, Elena's going for a very "WWE wrestler" look in terms of wearing little more than underwear. She's apparently from an African tribe and uses Caoperia...out of which two things make no sense, 1) Caoperia is from Brazil, which is on a different continent and 2) Since when do Africans have completely white hair? Or is it dye/bleach?
If you were to defend Elena you would also have to defend Christie Monteiro from Tekken and...well, come on -_-
Anyway back to the point, proportions are important but it's undeniable she is fighting in little more than underwear and given how whacky SF characters can get, I had to establish some kind of baseline as to what classifies as sexualized in terms of female fighters, which I decided would be a lack of clothing.

On the male end of the spectrum we have quite a few characters like Vega, and Zangief (though he comes across as comical) etc...hmm to be frank there are quite a few male fighters who go bare-chested lol, I'm the wrong person to try and determine what is "sexualized" for males because I'm hetero. Pretty much all SF males are built like world-class body builders with a few exceptions.

 

[wulf3n]

One is required to provide evidence for extraordinary claims.

One is required to provide evidence if their claim is to be taken seriously.

If one makes the claim 'Gravity exists' one doesn't have to because that is not an extraordinary claim.

If someone asks evidence to be provided as to the existence of gravity it can be easily given.

'Some people are misogynist sexists in the gaming community' is a similar claim that describes an ubiquitous phenomenon that is commonly observed to the point where it does not need to be proven.

If it is so ubiquitous evidence should be easy to come by.

Interestingly in my 12 years of Counter Strike, Battlefield and CoD I've yet to observe any real act of sexism or misogyny, or so infrequently that I've forgotten it. Plenty of racism and general unpleasantness, but no misogyny.

Insisting on evidence for trivial claims is merely a filibuster to actual intelligent discussion and is not a reasonable argument tactic.

No discussion can be had unless people are able to provide evidence for their claims. Without evidence all anyone is really doing is shouting their belief at another person hoping they back down.