Should Feminism and Gaming Mix?

[MaximumTheHormone]

From Parasite Eve to Fatal Frame to Beyond Good and Evil to Xenosaga, to any number for Final Fantasies, to Heavenly Sword to Mirror's Edge to Remember Me and dozens of others, there are a lot of games that did passibly to bad that need to be overcome before women will be seen as a demographic to market to without question. It's why I think Women need more positive involvement, not internet complaining. Companies would take the whole issue more seriously if something in the digital library shot up in sales as a sign that this demographic did actually exist. Without that, they become inclined to file it with stuff from PETA, One Million Moms, and other moralist groups that just want to tell them what to do.

You are a champion mate. no irony, this is exactly my sentiment as well.

 

[Machine Man 1992]

Should Feminism And Gaming Mix?

Hell, no! They've proven time and again that they can't conduct themselves in gaming spaces without resorting to overanalyzing, hyperbole and shaming.

They act like trolls and get mad when trolls say hateful things back.

 

[Ragsnstitches]

It is my personal belief that sexist abuse on the internet doesn't stem from an inherent misogyny but rather a desire to antagonize people for amusement, using what is perceived to be the most volatile slur for the current audience. So the increase in feminist activity will only see in increase in "misogyny"

Though I've yet to prove this so take it with a grain of salt.

I'm sorry (no I'm not), I read this and all I can think of was this:

Not only do you refuse to see what is there (see nothing), but you also block alternative talking points with your own unproven, untested, baseless "belief", which I doubt you will try and prove due to how convenient it is for you to remain unproven (hear nothing), and then dismiss others on the grounds of very shaky reasoning (speak nothing).

Here's the thing. You are not willing to look at this problem objectively. You see what everyone else see's, but refuse to put it all together.

Anita has an opinion? Deserves to be attacked at every possible oppurtunity and desperate attempts to turn into some kind of counter-culture villain. Oh so she's a scammer? Well that claim was made and is still been made despite the fact she has up to this point followed closely to her projected goals and promises. The fact her videos aren't earth shattering is also somehow indicative of Anitas deception.

Hepler wrote some shit for Bioware and has the audacity to have an opinion? Is the reason for all that is wrong with gaming and deserves an onslaught of abuse. Forget the fact that the things she said (about skipping gameplay) were made years ago without much of a shitstorm (it was there), but suddenly her leaving bioware is the best fucking thing ever. Because that passionless ***** must have been responsible for the disgraceful handling of: ME3's ending, Dragon Age 2's reduced development time, EA's horrid DLC practices and the refocusing towards mutliplayer components in an excusively single player franchise. Good riddance I hope her kids die of aids.

Marketing discrimination. We here this constantly:

Male only focus testers. Because women don't play games, so we make games for men, so we get men to tell us what they want, which makes the appeal of the game gender focused, meaning it is less appealing for women but women don't play games?

Male centric cover art. If she isn't showing tits or ass she is going to the back of the box.

Male centric marketing campaigns. If we have women in the game, let's completely ignore them and show all the men shooting stuff. Bioshock Infinites ad spot had this. For all the ad would tell us, all Booker would be doing in the game is rescuing some freaking Disney princess from cartoon villains. Despite Ken Levines "This is Elizabeths story" they certainly didn't try and sell it as such... I wonder why.

Gratuitous sexualisation of Women (this is a wider media problem, but it still relates heavily to this topic). A woman can rarely just be a character with irrelevant female genitalia, they have to be a Token female character with mandatory sex appeal and must make the player feel good about themselves by telling us how awesome we are (both Elizabeth AND alyx vance do this, despite the fact that they are both meant to be strong independant characters... not ego masturbatory aids)

"Fake Girl gamers" (with no male equivalent that receives even a fraction of the abuse these people get). There is some sort of hidden qualification that all men have, but women have to take oral exams over (the "nerd cred" shit...)

An extension of this is the victim complex a LOT of Men have as "hardcore" gamers and nerds, and they see women as the quintessential "casual" who needs to be put through some sort of gauntlet to qualify as a gamer or a nerd, if not be sneered at or accosted for having the gall to step into our play spaces.

Boot Girls been treated like a plague despite the fact they are only doing a job (it's like abusing a clerk because the multi conglomerate he works for overcharges). This is also part of the Male Centric Marketing. Either way the women lose out. They get flaunted off by marketers for male audiences, then get abused by the male audiences becuase they have the audacity to look pretty and make you "feel tingly in your pee pee".

Disproportionate and highly gender specific abuse on public gaming spaces (Fat Ugly Slutty is often posted on these topics, I'm not going to bother, you can google it yourself since I figure you wouldn't even click the link if I did post it... it's also far from the only source of this stuff). This isn't exclusive to women, but many minorities. Yeah yeah, it's just trolling, keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better... people are never assholes just for the sake of it, they are always projecting something that they hold to personally.

Friendzone topics. Fuck that noise; somehow an individuals incompetence reflects poorly on an entire gender? Do you ever here of Gay friendzones used in absolute sincerity?. Heck, a recent topic on THIS site was titled "Why are women so fickle?". As if the authors piss poor luck is somehow indicative of an entire gender.

So many things brought up on women on even this site (which is one of the better sites to discuss these topics with general audience) stem from convictions made from ignorance.

This list can keep on going.

I am not claiming you are a perpatrator of these things, I'm just saying you must be willfully blind not to see some connection. These things are a systemic issue, not a slew of totally unrelated problems.

 

[Olikar]

Anita has an opinion? Deserves to be attacked at every possible oppurtunity and desperate attempts to turn into some kind of counter-culture villain.

This has nothing to do with sexism, she was attacked because her opinions are vile and in direct contradiction with values most sane people have for art.

Hepler wrote some shit for Bioware and has the audacity to have an opinion? Is the reason for all that is wrong with gaming and deserves an onslaught of abuse.

Again nothing to with sexism.

Male only focus testers. Because women don't play games, so we make games for men, so we get men to tell us what they want, which makes the appeal of the game gender focused, meaning it is less appealing for women but women don't play games?

Male centric cover art. If she isn't showing tits or ass she is going to the back of the box.

citation needed.

Male centric marketing campaigns. If we have women in the game, let's completely ignore them and show all the men shooting stuff. Bioshock Infinites ad spot had this. For all the ad would tell us, all Booker would be doing in the game is rescuing some freaking Disney princess from cartoon villains. Despite Ken Levines "This is Elizabeths story" they certainly didn't try and sell it as such... I wonder why.

A worthless bit of anecdotal evidence that tells us nothing beyond how BI specifically was marketed.

Gratuitous sexualisation of Women (this is a wider media problem, but it still relates heavily to this topic).

Sexualisation is not inherently indicative of sexism.

A woman can rarely just be a character with irrelevant female genitalia, they have to be a Token female character with mandatory sex appeal and must make the player feel good about themselves by telling us how awesome we are.

Where as male characters are so well written and human? Could it not be that disposable female characters is indicative of bad writing in video games not sexism?

An extension of this is the victim complex a LOT of Men have as "hardcore" gamers and nerds, and they see women as the quintessential "casual" who needs to be put through some sort of gauntlet to qualify as a gamer or a nerd, if not be sneered at or accosted for having the gall to step into our play spaces.

Any evidence to back up the claim this attitude is more than just a handful of people getting angry on internet forums?

Disproportionate and highly gender specific abuse on public gaming spaces

Again do you have any evidence that women are disproportionately insulted while playing games?

(Fat Ugly Slutty is often posted on these topics, I'm not going to bother, you can google it yourself since I figure you wouldn't even click the link if I did post it... it's also far from the only source of this stuff)

Wow more worthless anecdotal tripe! I sure am convinced.

Heck, a recent topic on THIS site was titled "Why are women so fickle?". As if the authors piss poor luck is somehow indicative of an entire gender.

Anecdotal, no evidence its widespread and not a small minority etc etc yada yada

 

[carnex]

Anita has an opinion? Deserves to be attacked at every possible oppurtunity and desperate attempts to turn into some kind of counter-culture villain. Oh so she's a scammer? Well that claim was made and is still been made despite the fact she has up to this point followed closely to her projected goals and promises. The fact her videos aren't earth shattering is also somehow indicative of Anitas deception.

Some of attacks aimed at Anita were simple stupid lashing out. Everyone takes those on internet. Rest of them actually bust her weak case open. She did really poor job of presenting and defending her opinion, presented her opinion as fact without proof for that, and finally all that is built upon ideology that is, again, far from proven and torn apart by facts constantly.

Hepler wrote some shit for Bioware and has the audacity to have an opinion? Is the reason for all that is wrong with gaming and deserves an onslaught of abuse. Forget the fact that the things she said (about skipping gameplay) were made years ago without much of a shitstorm (it was there), but suddenly her leaving bioware is the best fucking thing ever. Because that passionless ***** must have been responsible for the disgraceful handling of: ME3's ending, Dragon Age 2's reduced development time, EA's horrid DLC practices and the refocusing towards mutliplayer components in an excusively single player franchise. Good riddance I hope her kids die of aids.

Hapler incident is tragic thing. It started as really stupid lashing out by small homophobic really loud minority. And it ended on one of the saddest things in gaming history. This is problem that, unfortunately, can?t be really solved. Internet is largely anonymous if you are careful (many could track you down anyway but vast majority doesn?t have neither skill not equipment and access). Assholes are everywhere and you can't escape them in real life and even less online.

Marketing discrimination. We here this constantly:

Male only focus testers. Because women don't play games, so we make games for men, so we get men to tell us what they want, which makes the appeal of the game gender focused, meaning it is less appealing for women but women don't play games?

Male centric cover art. If she isn't showing tits or ass she is going to the back of the box.

Male centric marketing campaigns. If we have women in the game, let's completely ignore them and show all the men shooting stuff. Bioshock Infinites ad spot had this. For all the ad would tell us, all Booker would be doing in the game is rescuing some freaking Disney princess from cartoon villains. Despite Ken Levines "This is Elizabeths story" they certainly didn't try and sell it as such... I wonder why.

Would you imagine that? Product aimed on male audience is tested on males? I could never imagine such thing. I mean they have men testing vibrators since someone might buy one... And there was 50/50 representation on test screening of Twilight movies for sure. You have really missed here

Gratuitous sexualisation of Women (this is a wider media problem, but it still relates heavily to this topic). A woman can rarely just be a character with irrelevant female genitalia, they have to be a Token female character with mandatory sex appeal and must make the player feel good about themselves by telling us how awesome we are (both Elizabeth AND alyx vance do this, despite the fact that they are both meant to be strong independent characters... not ego masturbatory aids)

And in games geared towards women male characters are represented as female audience wants to see them. It's all about target audience. I don't like to be represented as one dimensional rich Antonio Banderas wanabe but that is stereotype many women love and, therefore get. And they have every right to get it. Just like I have the right to get my Mai Shiranui.

"Fake Girl gamers" (with no male equivalent that receives even a fraction of the abuse these people get). There is some sort of hidden qualification that all men have, but women have to take oral exams over (the "nerd cred" shit...)

An extension of this is the victim complex a LOT of Men have as "hardcore" gamers and nerds, and they see women as the quintessential "casual" who needs to be put through some sort of gauntlet to qualify as a gamer or a nerd, if not be sneered at or accosted for having the gall to step into our play spaces.

I never had problem with people playing roles to earn money or get attention. Now why would you try to get that from gamers I don't know. But I do understand that some people are just butthurt, and lash out and that other have been burnt. Never understood the whole commotion though.

Boot Girls been treated like a plague despite the fact they are only doing a job (it's like abusing a clerk because the multi conglomerate he works for overcharges). This is also part of the Male Centric Marketing. Either way the women lose out. They get flaunted off by marketers for male audiences, then get abused by the male audiences becuase they have the audacity to look pretty and make you "feel tingly in your pee pee".

Actually this is making of Feminists and pro feminist journalists. You are knocking on the wrong door here. Sure some have jumped on the bandwagon but wider community jumped on them. Rare but satisfying sight. Feminists and journalists are out of the reach though.

Disproportionate and highly gender specific abuse on public gaming spaces (Fat Ugly Slutty is often posted on these topics, I'm not going to bother, you can google it yourself since I figure you wouldn't even click the link if I did post it... it's also far from the only source of this stuff). This isn't exclusive to women, but many minorities. Yeah yeah, it's just trolling, keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better... people are never assholes just for the sake of it, they are always projecting something that they hold to personally.

Ah, well, women are relatively rare sight in many game spaces, When someone lashes out, that person usually hinges upon the difference. Therefore its "*****, make me a sandwich and stop ruining my game" but also "Those damn niggers found a way to steal kills of the score table", "*****, go back to gluing those shoes", "god damn gays gaying up my space, I feel filthy now" etc. While really bad in every single case, rarely it's sign of hatred. Rather sign of bad self control and lack of social skills/dicipline. And, again, unless it's on regulated space there is nothing you can do about it. Even if it is in the regulated space it can be hard to prove that behavior and that's exactly why they feel free to do it.

Friendzone topics. Fuck that noise; somehow an individuals incompetence reflects poorly on an entire gender? Do you ever here of Gay friendzones used in absolute sincerity?. Heck, a recent topic on THIS site was titled "Why are women so fickle?". As if the authors piss poor luck is somehow indicative of an entire gender.

Oh this is horrible. Someone got hurt in his love life and pours out his heart. Is there anything more evil in this world? Would you know, everyone complains about target sex when they feel betrayed by someone that person loved or still loves. Be it male or female, straight or homosexual or even zoofiliac love interest. That is a little known syndrome called "human nature". I dare you to casually aproach woman who had her heart broken in last 48 hours. Chances are, you are going to get to live through a bit of that generalization.

So many things brought up on women on even this site (which is one of the better sites to discuss these topics with general audience) stem from convictions made from ignorance.

Which can be said for you too.

I am not claiming you are a perpatrator of these things, I'm just saying you must be willfully blind not to see some connection. These things are a systemic issue, not a slew of totally unrelated problems.

I'm usually unsatisfied by looking at problem, i need to find a solution which quite often can be next to impossible to do. Also, I like to think that every human being is capable of concluding that his/het/it's views are not meant for everyone and that everyone deserves to consume his prefered entertainment as long as it objectively doesn't hurt others. And game characters don't hurt women, not in a million years.

 

[Ragsnstitches]

Anita has an opinion? Deserves to be attacked at every possible oppurtunity and desperate attempts to turn into some kind of counter-culture villain.

This has nothing to do with sexism, she was attacked because her opinions are vile and in direct contradiction with values most sane people have for art.

Hepler wrote some shit for Bioware and has the audacity to have an opinion? Is the reason for all that is wrong with gaming and deserves an onslaught of abuse.

Again nothing to with sexism.

Male only focus testers. Because women don't play games, so we make games for men, so we get men to tell us what they want, which makes the appeal of the game gender focused, meaning it is less appealing for women but women don't play games?

Male centric cover art. If she isn't showing tits or ass she is going to the back of the box.

citation needed.

Male centric marketing campaigns. If we have women in the game, let's completely ignore them and show all the men shooting stuff. Bioshock Infinites ad spot had this. For all the ad would tell us, all Booker would be doing in the game is rescuing some freaking Disney princess from cartoon villains. Despite Ken Levines "This is Elizabeths story" they certainly didn't try and sell it as such... I wonder why.

A worthless bit of anecdotal evidence that tells us nothing beyond how BI specifically was marketed.

Gratuitous sexualisation of Women (this is a wider media problem, but it still relates heavily to this topic).

Sexualisation is not inherently indicative of sexism.

A woman can rarely just be a character with irrelevant female genitalia, they have to be a Token female character with mandatory sex appeal and must make the player feel good about themselves by telling us how awesome we are.

Where as male characters are so well written and human? Could it not be that disposable female characters is indicative of bad writing in video games not sexism?

An extension of this is the victim complex a LOT of Men have as "hardcore" gamers and nerds, and they see women as the quintessential "casual" who needs to be put through some sort of gauntlet to qualify as a gamer or a nerd, if not be sneered at or accosted for having the gall to step into our play spaces.

Any evidence to back up the claim this attitude is more than just a handful of people getting angry on internet forums?

Disproportionate and highly gender specific abuse on public gaming spaces

Again do you have any evidence that women are disproportionately insulted while playing games?

(Fat Ugly Slutty is often posted on these topics, I'm not going to bother, you can google it yourself since I figure you wouldn't even click the link if I did post it... it's also far from the only source of this stuff)

Wow more worthless anecdotal tripe! I sure am convinced.

Heck, a recent topic on THIS site was titled "Why are women so fickle?". As if the authors piss poor luck is somehow indicative of an entire gender.

Anecdotal, no evidence its widespread and not a small minority etc etc yada yada

No she wasn't. Before her opinions were even made she was attacked. A lot of which were targeted at her gender, ethnicity and appearance (a veritable trifecta of online asshatery). Try again.

Yes it is, in part. It was a disproportionate reaction and a delayed one at that. It seems people are now just kneejerking as soon as a woman does anything in this industry. Not to mention her actual contribution to the problems Bioware have had are virtually non-existent, it was all beyond her control. But who am I kidding, she deserves everything she got.

I couldn't be arsed. I'm well aware of the value of citing source materials, but this stuff is brought up constantly on these forums. If you aren't aware of them then you aren't clued in and I couldn't not be arsed engaging with people who are playing catch up.

You love that word, "anecdotal", don't you. BI was a specific example yes. Do you want me to go through all the games that have marketed themselves towards specific genders? Because, unsurprisingly I would find it easier to show the ones that don't.

Of course it isn't, but that's why I said it was "Gratuitous". That word has very specific meaning. Also, Strawman. Good going. I didn't say it was indicative of sexism, just that it is something that exists and is used gratuitously. It correlates to the governing issue.

You do know that Anecdotal is not a catch all term right? The fact you just exclaim "Anecdotal!" and dismiss everything said shows how unwilling you are to look at this subject objectively. "Anecdotal Evidence" is not an oxymoron, it can be used as evidence as long as there is sufficient volume that correlates to the subject in question. The question then should be credibility of the sources and whether it is causative to the problem. It can't build a case on its own, but it can be used to reinforce a point.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection (if you really want to learn something look up some scholarly work) Also, feel free to read the crticism section, because it's tangential to my point, not contradictory. In fact, keep reading as much as you can on the subject and its controversies, it can only do you good.

What about evidence to the contrary? Whatever I say now (or you say too, for that matter) is only going to be anecdotal since there is no established metric for gauging these problems. Since you use "Anecdotal" like a bomber uses carpet bombing I assume in your mind your viewpoint is just as weak as my own. Or would that mean you are being too honest?

If you can stop rolling your eyes like they are mechanically powered, read this :

Now I have a question for you, since you only seem to swoop in and turn your nose up at anything that differs from your opinion, like an aloof superman. What would constitute as "evidence" in your mind and what would you purport as "evidence" to the contrary? The thing is, if you are arguing for objective reasoning, you must also accept falsifiability as a necessary component. This is not asking you to prove a negative, before you blow your load on that idea, but to show that there is a valid, demonstrable, alternative to concerns so many people have?

or is your viewpoint "Shut up and go home, there is nothing wrong LALALALA"? If that is the gist of your answer then don't respond... I have nothing more to say to you.

Finally, I don't give a fuck about convincing you or anyone of diddly squat. I'm not taking it upon myself to educate ignorants. There are other, far more patient people on this site and in the world who do so, but are met with an obnoxious volume of dismissive pseudo-intellectual retorts. I just don't care enough to bother.

 

[carnex]

Friendzone topics. Fuck that noise; somehow an individuals incompetence reflects poorly on an entire gender? Do you ever here of Gay friendzones used in absolute sincerity?. Heck, a recent topic on THIS site was titled "Why are women so fickle?". As if the authors piss poor luck is somehow indicative of an entire gender.

Love this comic, made by young adult woman. Just to ilustrate that everyone generalizes.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

It seems that we trully are just running in circles now, I'm going to try to propose a solution.

How bout we all decide to believe two things.

1. That there is sexism in the industry.

2. That the AAA companies are not going to do anything about it.

If the above things are true then what can be done to try and improve the situation?

 

[Olikar]

No she wasn't. Before her opinions were even made she was attacked. A lot of which were targeted at her gender, ethnicity and appearance (a veritable trifecta of online asshatery). Try again.

Oh right you're one of those people you group the majority of criticism and attacks with a small minority of trolls, yay for intellectual dishonesty!







Yes it is, in part. It was a disproportionate reaction and a delayed one at that. It seems people are now just kneejerking as soon as a woman does anything in this industry.

Do you have a single shred of evidence to say that she wouldn't have been attacked as much if she has been a man? I really doubt you do, you're just asserting this because it suits you're opinion.

I couldn't be arsed. I'm well aware of the value of citing source materials, but this stuff is brought up constantly on these forums. If you aren't aware of them then you aren't clued in and I couldn't not be arsed engaging with people who are playing catch up.

Well I'll take that as "I don't have any evidence but will pretend I do!".

You love that word, "anecdotal", don't you. BI was a specific example yes. Do you want me to go through all the games that have marketed themselves towards specific genders? Because, unsurprisingly I would find it easier to show the ones that don't.

No because even that would be irrelevant, certain products are marketed toward genders to maximise profits, it has nothing to with sexism.

You do know that Anecdotal is not a catch all term right? The fact you just exclaim "Anecdotal!" and dismiss everything said shows how unwilling you are to look at this subject objectively.

Well from studying science at uni for 4 years I can tell you anecdotal evidence rarely has anything to do with objectivity it's almost always suffers from confirmation bias. You can look at so and so games and say something like %80 of game are marketed towards men but this doesn't tell you anything other than %80 of game are aimed at men, someone who would use this as evidence for sexism would have no logical reason to think so but would do so out of personal bias.

What about evidence to the contrary? Whatever I say now (or you say too, for that matter) is only going to be anecdotal since there is no established metric for gauging these problems.

Exactly, so when you behave like sexism in games is an objective fact and that we are simply ignoring it or can't see it you are doing nothing more than asserting your beliefs as objective reality. This is my problem with most of these Anita types, they attempt to frame the subject of sexism as if it where an objective point to be disproved or proved when it's closer to a philosophical or political problem to be discussed an debated.

Since you use "Anecdotal" like a bomber uses carpet bombing I assume in your mind your viewpoint is just as weak as my own.

No I don't, but unlike you I don't assume my viewpoint is stronger on any objective terms and acknowledge my viewpoint may not be valid to you.

The thing is, if you are arguing for objective reasoning,

I don't, its ludicrous to think there is an objective answer to the question of supposed sexism in gaming.

you must also accept falsifiability as a necessary component.

And all the claims of supposed sexism in games are entirely unfalsifiable.

 

[Ragsnstitches]

I don't fucking believe it... I had responses to all 3 of my responders and just as I was reaching the end and about to post my browser crashed.

I'm literally dead inside right now. Fuck it, there is no such thing as sexism, it's all made up and industry and community are tearing itself asunder for the larf.

Now I'm going to lie down, for a long, long time.

 

[V8 Ninja]

Trying to read through this thread makes my brain hurt. Here's some random thoughts I have;

1. OP is using one bad fruit salad to say that fruit salads should never exist.

2. Just because problem X is smaller than problem Y does not mean that problem X shouldn't be discussed.

3. Before we can draw a line between "Sexist" and "Not Sexist", we must define what a person is. Many people will come to different conclusions on both the definition of a "Normal" person and where the sexist line should be drawn.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Yes, I know that the reason for this is because developers think games with female leads won't sell. I know. We all know. That doesn't mean it's good, right, or okay, or that we shouldn't talk about it.

Well...it does mean it's not really "censorship" though, save in perhaps the most egregiously far reaching interpretation of the word. This is the same kind of loose interpretation of language that has people claiming criticizing a game or industry is the same as "censoring" it.

 

[Olikar]

I don't fucking believe it... I had responses to all 3 of my responders and just as I was reaching the end and about to post my browser crashed.

I'm literally dead inside right now. Fuck it, there is no such thing as sexism, it's all made up and industry and community are tearing itself asunder for the larf.

Now I'm going to lie down, for a long, long time.

Ha man I feel for you, that's happened to me several times before.

 

[RafaelNegrus]

Sad stuff that sounds really sad

I've been reading your posts, and for the most part I generally agree with you. (Although in defense of the BI trailer, it did give a decent depiction of the gameplay while not being actual gameplay footage, which is rare. It just took out like nearly every story element, but I think the story would have been mutilated if only given 30 seconds in an ad meant to show gameplay.)

I just think that the argument over whether or not there is sexism in the industry is an unhelpful one, because even just labeling it all as sexism can be taken as just a beginning, although the temptation is to call it an end. The discussion that needs to take place is how to make things better.

And you get some of this. The Anita Sarkeesian threads have been getting a little better as time has gone on, but that does not mean that everyone agrees with her. There are many people that agree with her points, but find them to be relatively simplistic and badly made.

But that's just my take. Saying something is sexist is all too easily taken as the final word when really it's just saying that there is a problem that needs to be discussed.(I'm in college right now, that sort of thing happens all the time here)

 

[nuttshell]

To all people who constantly are saying that feminism is this and that

You ahve people among the movement who are much more extreme and have large following, People who are not for dialogue, are violent and deny and possibility of other poeple having problems or having different opinion. Often all in one package. And those people are the ones who are most out there and most visible.

Wow! 11 pages untill someone finally made this point clear. The general ideas of feminism actually sound pretty good to me. There are many people who tend to shout stupid bullshit in everybody's face and some of them use the label of whatever noble cause seems to be the point of origin of their bullshit to protect themselves from criticism and further their cause like Anita. Many feminists disagree with people shown in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGdmmPGKfkg

 

[Ragsnstitches]

Sad stuff that sounds really sad

I've been reading your posts, and for the most part I generally agree with you. (Although in defense of the BI trailer, it did give a decent depiction of the gameplay while not being actual gameplay footage, which is rare. It just took out like nearly every story element, but I think the story would have been mutilated if only given 30 seconds in an ad meant to show gameplay.)

I just think that the argument over whether or not there is sexism in the industry is an unhelpful one, because even just labeling it all as sexism can be taken as just a beginning, although the temptation is to call it an end. The discussion that needs to take place is how to make things better.

And you get some of this. The Anita Sarkeesian threads have been getting a little better as time has gone on, but that does not mean that everyone agrees with her. There are many people that agree with her points, but find them to be relatively simplistic and badly made.

But that's just my take. Saying something is sexist is all too easily taken as the final word when really it's just saying that there is a problem that needs to be discussed.(I'm in college right now, that sort of thing happens all the time here)

I'd say there are 2 factors that make that apparent. People naturally get defensive about things they like, and people automatically get more aggressive when others get defensive. So the frustration for all camps escalates.

The problem at this point is that, as a result of all the controversies, people have taken sides. So there isn't really a discussion as much as a wrestling match to see who falters first. That is an incredibly poor method for approaching issues.

This results in extremes in both parties, one in which people are convinced that there is no problem just a bunch of people swept up by the current trends and the other that thinks anyone who isn't decidedly in favour of feminism MUST be a bigot.

Or at least, there is some illusion that this is the case. And that feeds back into the first problem which widens the gap between both extremes, further complicating the discussion and frustrating everyone else to boot.

I know it's hypocritical to say at this stage, but I think everyone needs to walk away from this for the moment and let the rivalries subside. We're all just shouting at brick walls for the most part. I could have something perfectly valid to say, but because another person conveyed the same point but badly, people will reject the point thinking they've heard that tune before and have filed it away as bullshit. That goes both ways.

Also, about that point of the BI ad. You are right that it sold the actual game side to the game pretty well. Watching it gives you a good idea of what to expect even if it's pre-rendered. It just didn't do anything for the narrative, which was the games strongest point (the gameplay being the absolute weakest).

That is another difficulty when it comes to discussing something that has such subtle influences like sexism in any social space. It can be so intertwined with everything we become accustomed to that we struggle to both see, discern and explain the things that are problematic (let alone offer solutions), without sounding like we are jumping at ghosts or trying to dismantle what actually DOES work and leave nothing but a rickety husk behind.

I really do feel like I'm banging my head against a wall on this subject. It's not doing me, nor the person I'm sparring with, any freaking favours. And when I get frustrated, I end up blocking valid criticism in my ire.

This needs to be both approached delicately, but also engaged over the wider community... and it just seems that those 2 things are impossible to bring together.

 

[carnex]

To all people who constantly are saying that feminism is this and that

You ahve people among the movement who are much more extreme and have large following, People who are not for dialogue, are violent and deny and possibility of other poeple having problems or having different opinion. Often all in one package. And those people are the ones who are most out there and most visible.

Wow! 11 pages untill someone finally made this point clear. The general ideas of feminism actually sound pretty good to me. There are many people who tend to shout stupid bullshit in everybody's face and some of them use the label of whatever noble cause seems to be the point of origin of their bullshit to protect themselves from criticism and further their cause like Anita. Many feminists disagree with people shown in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGdmmPGKfkg

I must say that I have bunch of problems with Feminist movement but most of all you can't have equality by adressing problems of one side going even to levels of giving taht movement power of deciding what equality is (in Canada for example). When one has power unchecked, even if it has best of intention, it will abuse it one time or another. We can't be objective without having counterweight to stop us from steering off.

But that is off topic.

--

We can have discussion, but I will not have one on grounds that censorship is needed, sexually charged representation of women is somehow wrong unless intended as insult and blaming whole selfidentifying group for incidents coming from small subset.

We can talk about quaility and amount of representation of women, inclusivnes, organized exclusion of guility parties and positive actions of women to include themself not waiting for silver plater.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I thought someone a few pages back explained this really well. There is a difference between subjective criticism (I, personally don?t like the depiction of a certain things or ?I don?t like the art style?.) and moral criticism that claims moral superiority over your opponents and tries to paint them as the bad people instead of someone with a different opinion.

Pointing out that, say, Dragon Age indulges in pandering or that Dragon's Crown appears to be guilty of objectification is in no particular way a "moral criticism". It's calling a spade a spade. I've never understood the ass clenching fury a certain demographic of the gaming community experiences every time one of these criticisms is levied against a title they enjoyed. Or didn't enjoy. It doesn't really seem to matter. I liked Django Unchained, but when Spike Lee complains about it being disrespectful, I don't immediately presume Spike is an idiot or a PC whackjob out to spoil my good time. It's just criticism of the medium. Any and ALL artistic mediums should not only be open to criticism of this nature, they should welcome it.

You see, because in that case it?s not just your opinion clashing with that of your opponent (?I like sexy/large breasted girls? or ?There should be no/less sexy/large breasted girls in gaming?) but you are fighting for a higher moral goal altogether which is above you and thus artists which employ these techniques are suddenly not just artists whose work you don't like, but "14 year old boys", "misogynists" and "sexist pigs".

We all indulge in a little hyperbolic name calling from time to time in these forum discussions when we're feeling impatient or lazy, but you are correct...it is not a good foundation for any kind of reasoned argument. I'm not sure who the "you" in this analogue is meant to be however. If it's individuals, great. If it's a collective, then you are generalizing at best.

It?s kind of like the holy crusades, if you believe that you are on a mission from god to eradicate the infidels you feel justified in whatever you do or say and believe yourself in the right on moral grounds alone.

Actually it's nothing like the Crusades at all, unless you feel that millions of people being murdered for their religious beliefs is a fair analogy for some gamers having their hobby criticized.

In this case the enemies aren?t ?infidels?, but these evil sexists/misogynists that like sexy women or certain kind of media which should be eradicated from the face of the earth.

Bit of a straw man, chum.

 

[RafaelNegrus]

Sad stuff that sounds really sad

I've been reading your posts, and for the most part I generally agree with you. (Although in defense of the BI trailer, it did give a decent depiction of the gameplay while not being actual gameplay footage, which is rare. It just took out like nearly every story element, but I think the story would have been mutilated if only given 30 seconds in an ad meant to show gameplay.)

I just think that the argument over whether or not there is sexism in the industry is an unhelpful one, because even just labeling it all as sexism can be taken as just a beginning, although the temptation is to call it an end. The discussion that needs to take place is how to make things better.

And you get some of this. The Anita Sarkeesian threads have been getting a little better as time has gone on, but that does not mean that everyone agrees with her. There are many people that agree with her points, but find them to be relatively simplistic and badly made.

But that's just my take. Saying something is sexist is all too easily taken as the final word when really it's just saying that there is a problem that needs to be discussed.(I'm in college right now, that sort of thing happens all the time here)

I'd say there are 2 factors that make that apparent. People naturally get defensive about things they like, and people automatically get more aggressive when others get defensive. So the frustration for all camps escalates.

The problem at this point is that, as a result of all the controversies, people have taken sides. So there isn't really a discussion as much as a wrestling match to see who falters first. That is an incredibly poor method for approaching issues.

This results in extremes in both parties, one in which people are convinced that there is no problem just a bunch of people swept up by the current trends and the other that thinks anyone who isn't decidedly in favour of feminism MUST be a bigot.

Or at least, there is some illusion that this is the case. And that feeds back into the first problem which widens the gap between both extremes, further complicating the discussion and frustrating everyone else to boot.

I know it's hypocritical to say at this stage, but I think everyone needs to walk away from this for the moment and let the rivalries subside. We're all just shouting at brick walls for the most part. I could have something perfectly valid to say, but because another person conveyed the same point but badly, people will reject the point thinking they've heard that tune before and have filed it away as bullshit. That goes both ways.

Also, about that point of the BI ad. You are right that it sold the actual game side to the game pretty well. Watching it gives you a good idea of what to expect even if it's pre-rendered. It just didn't do anything for the narrative, which was the games strongest point (the gameplay being the absolute weakest).

That is another difficulty when it comes to discussing something that has such subtle influences like sexism in any social space. It can be so intertwined with everything we become accustomed to that we struggle to both see, discern and explain the things that are problematic (let alone offer solutions), without sounding like we are jumping at ghosts or trying to dismantle what actually DOES work and leave nothing but a rickety husk behind.

I really do feel like I'm banging my head against a wall on this subject. It's not doing me, nor the person I'm sparring with, any freaking favours. And when I get frustrated, I end up blocking valid criticism in my ire.

This needs to be both approached delicately, but also engaged over the wider community... and it just seems that those 2 things are impossible to bring together.

Yeah, you're right. I think a problem is that there are too few really good voices out there in the midst of this conversation. The most prominent person seems to be Anita, and the divisiveness surrounding her is not helpful at all. Jim Sterling sometimes does a good video, but he really seems to only excel when he's calling out stupidity for what it is, and doesn't handle very delicate topics all that well.

Although if you're interested here's a post on objectification that kind of complicates the issue, although it looks at it through a D&D lens, which is something I'm not too familiar with: http://nagorascorner.blogspot.com/2012/07/chainmail-burqa.html

But yeah, all of this is a rather deep issue and more yelling doesn't seem to help.

 

[Sofus]

To hell with equality, the word has been tainted so much that is has lost all meaning.... I want uniformity.