Should Feminism and Gaming Mix?

[Rebel_Raven]

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On PC you'll have no problem finding games. Digital distribution is main outlet on PC platform so it's always 1 click away. And all the indie stuff is on the PC anyway. Most of those games would run on potato with some electronics stuck in it

Don't worry about the future. Whole industry is running headless right now. In recent years this industry was hit by more changes in short amount of time than any other entertainment medium in history. New markets (casual and middle age females), new type of platforms (smartphone and tablets), new monetization systems with resurrection of old ones (free2play, piecemeal content, shareware, episodic), new distribution systems (well, over the net is new for some, piracy paved the way for that ages ago) and new development kits which make game making much less of a pain giving raise to indie and return to spirit of old 8 and 16 bit computers. No wonder bigwigs are smashing in every obstacle in the way. Foundations on which they created their empires crumbled right underneath them.

But good thing about all that is that new ideas are pouring in through the cracks as publishers try to save their lives. We are already witnessing equivalent of Hollywood?s late seventies. Let's hope they don?t turn cynical like Hollywood did just a decade later.

I can't argue that there's going to be a hell of an easier time finding games on PC, but this is where consoles shine.
Will the PC games even -work-? I've done some PC gaming. Lately I hit up GoG. Got some free games. Some wouldn't work. I got torchlight for free, but since my laptop is heavily geared towards socialization with my small circle of friends, I tried to run it in windows. I set it to run in windows... and the game went minimized, and I had to google to find out what the problem was.
It's just a personal thing for me, but my laptop has a touchpad. Touchpad+keyboard isn't quite as good as mouse+keyboard, and even then I still preferr a controller. Unfortunately a lot of games don't necessarily support a controller.
And of course a decent PC that can run games solidly will cost money. Arguably more than a console. Believe me, I've had PCs custom built before so I know how cheap they can be. I could possibly build one myself, but there in lies 2 things in favor to consoles, IMO. Cost, and "no assembly required." Well largely no assemnly required aside from plugging things in.

Honestly, I ran my laptop through 2 different sites that will tell you if you can run games like Team Fortress 2, and Blacklight Retribution, and Scribblenauts, and, well, it might as well have linked me to a youtube vid of Joker laughing. <.<
Doesn't help that my laptop is occupied on websites, and messengers at all times.

I -am- worried about the future. Girl Power 90's had quite the selection of games out there with female protagonists. Then it almost entirely dried up. It seemed so sudden, too. When will this good time for female protagonists dry up? I'm practically sure it will, and I'll be more jaded for it. <.< Still, I have a glimmer of hope that things are changing. Maybe in 5 years, we'll see something substantial.

Indie games are nice, and all, but honestly, they're shallow, but fun. I like meat to my games. Many gamers do.

I have my hopes for the industry. I hope there will be a change, and I hope my predictions that "if you build it, they will come" (well, more like if the game industry builds games that appeal to women respectfully as gamers they will come) happens, and both sides of this debate can be happy, and I'll be too busy having a wonderful selection of female protagonists from the extra trashy to the sort you'd take home to mom (so to speak. Some moms might like their daughters extra trashy, I dunno. <.<)) to have an opinion that they're too rare.
And when that day comes, I feel like others will be in the same boat.
That'd be my optimism, there, but I'd rather be pessimistic, and wrong than optimistic and wrong.

Hhm. Well in terms of games that won't crash your PC, I guess I can give you some that I have, though I've probably repeated some of these in other threads.

There's... Superbrothers Sword & Sworcery. Although it's not easy to tell, the character you control is in fact a woman. There's Aquaria. This one might be somewhat resource intensive but I don't have a PC optimized for gaming and it's run fine for me so take that as you will. Saira is a nice puzzle/platformer game with really good ambiance. Rosenkreuzstilette. It's basically a Megaman game but set in a fantasy setting and with an all female cast. Recettear An Item Shop's Tale. I still unfortunately haven't found time to get back to this one but I've heard good things about it and from what I've played it's a good game. To the Moon. Not much for gameplay but it's a good story and as a plus to my particular demographic, it involves aspies. Bunny Must Die. A metroidvania game that can be really hard and is full of jokes. Eryi's Action. A game that somewhat takes a page from I Wanna Be The Guy but isn't a jerk about it. The deaths are treated more like puzzles you need to figure out and they're more often done to elicit a laugh from you than to make you frustrated. It's also not NEARLY as hard as I Wanna Be The Guy. Ib. A game about a girl that ends up in another world inside an art museum and tries to escape. A very good game with multiple endings. Engage To Jabberwock. Not sure how to classify this one in terms of gameplay... it's a top down game but it involves shooting and danmakku a lot of times. Mad Father. A very good horror title which has you playing as a young girl as the dead come back to life to kill her father for the experiments he performed on them. The Witch's House. Holy crap... I won't say anything about this other than it's one of the more heart wrenching and horrifying games I've played in a long time. Knytt Stories. Another kind of metroidvania game but it's more focused on just soaking in the world and the ambiance than the actual gameplay, but the gameplay isn't bad. Iji. Still don't really like this game, it just didn't click with me due to the nature of how you get certain endings. But people really like it so... Ah, and it's a sidescroller/platformer/shooter. The White Chamber. A horror adventure game with some very good visuals, I just recommend you turn off the voices. Misao. Another horror game, and I believe it's made by the same person that made Mad Father. It's rather hard to recomend it as the main part of the game is just kind of okay but once you get to the epilogue part of the game it all suddenly gets waaaaay better. Juniper's Knot. Not really a game but I'm adding it anyway because it's a great Visual Novel and it deserves more recognition. It's a very nice story about a boy and a fiend. Blackwell series. Still haven't gotten around to this but it's an adventure game series staring a female protagonist and I hear good things about it. Yume Nikki. Haven't been able to play this one because my computer doesn't like it but I've watched Let's Plays and it's really good food for thought about dreams and the meanings of them.

And I guess that's all of them. None of these games are super resource intensive, usually when I've had trouble it was just because I'm not an expert on everything required to download certain file types. Hope you find something you can enjoy in them.

My largest concern with PC games that fit into the area of games I can play reliably is that I admin a board, and have messengers running when not at work. At the least, I have to be able to pause a game at a moment's notice, be able to tab out of the game (which, ideally, is windowed so I can hear alerts.) and not worry about my laptop being bogged down. Considering it's limited power, that's a really tall order.
If I were to PC game, I'd need another PC, pretty much.

I do appreciate the list you've given! I'll keep them in mind not just for myself, but for others.

 

[DracoSuave]

If it is so ubiquitous evidence should be easy to come by.

Took less than 30 seconds to find on google.

Can we move along to fruitful discussion now?

Hold up there m8.
Again we must contextualize this slur, and recognize the source as both non-official (its not activision) and related to a fanbase who have been renowned as a lowest among the gaming community.
Same goes with fatuglyandslutty, explicitly taking the quotes of unminded adolescents on XBL or PSN to show how 'rampant' sexism is among the gaming community .Completely oblivious to the fact that every piece of media aimed at this demographic also reflects this brash machismo, including communities associated.
To imply that the actions and attitudes of this portion of the community reflect gaming as a whole is absolutely ludicrous.

My point was there exist members of the community that are misogynists.

Your rebuttal is to state that this misogynist tweet is from a member of the community.

We are therefore in agreement, and I have successfully made my point.

I was asked for evidence of misogyny from the community--there is evidence of misogyny from the community. A direct quote isn't an 'anecdote' it's a direct quote.

Now, can we please stop pretending that there aren't jokes about 'get back in the kitchen', 'make me a sandwich', and 'tits or gtfo' in many gaming communities just because admitting they happen regularly would completely derail anything close to a point you'd have?

Are we ignoring rape threats from people who don't know when a joke goes to far now, just because it's inconvenient to our point of view?

If you want evidence, I'll even give you a method to procure it for yourself. Go into twitch, and watch ANY female streamer for a popular game. Don't even bias the search by going to Mis Rose or anything like that... take any reasonably popular female streamer, and take note of the comments.

Repeat as necessary to get the data you desire. Then come back and say it never happens. I'm very confident you'll find the evidence you're looking for--the only variable I'd reckon is how many minutes before you find it.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

Street Fighter's a bit murkier. It seems like every last woman is dressed to to make guys drool, and some ladies if they're into that. <.<

To be fair, out of the 39 playable characters in Super Street Fighter IV only 8 are female, which is roughly 20.5%. Out of which an even smaller percentage are what I would call "drool material". On the opposite end of the spectrum quite a few of the male fighters are bare-chested and/or wearing nothing other than shorts.

Regarding female fighters in SSFIV, I would consider the below as "oversexualized":

Spoiler

> Cammy - As oversexualized as she is, I guarantee you the community would absolutely lose their SHIT if she ever removed from the most popular SF titles, everything from her fighting style to her leotard is very much iconic and part of her identity. Her clothes makes no sense considering she's supposed to be part of some elite military unit, but if you change her clothes I guarantee that the very next day you'll see 10 mods to put her back into the leotard lol. Cammy is just...Cammy.

> Juri - Going for an "evil *****" thing, she does have a rather weird thing going on with her lower half revealing her ass (and front). They could have done a better job with her clothing, it's hard to take her seriously as an antagonist.

The below I would classify as "acceptably sexy", i.e. beautiful but not in a titillating way in any fashion:

Spoiler

> Chun-Li - From a fighting standpoint everything about her attire makes sense, that's putting aside the fact that her dress is basically some kind of fighting-adapted Cheongsam (traditional chinese dress). She's supposed to have INSANELY strong and highly flexible legs to do stuff like Flash Kick, Spinning Bird Kick, etc. Her clothing completely covers her top-half and as much of her lower half as possible without restricting her legs (which are covered in stockings/hose). Also that dress is very much part of her character, iconic, Chinese design, etc.

> Sakura - Schoolgirl ahoy! To be honest I personally find nothing particularly sexy about Sakura, alright so she wears a skirt but that's an extremely common Japanese school uniform which you can spot literally anywhere in Japan right now (minus the boxing gloves and headband ). Her character as a whole is portrayed as very innocent, young/childish and rather carefree. Trying to imagine her sexing-it-up is just...eeggh, so wrong. She's Ryu's student and one of my favorite characters out of the SF series simply because she goes about doing everything with a super-eager attitude and a smile

The below I would classify as "not sexualized whatsoever":

Spoiler

> Makoto - Wears a full set of Karate Gi attire, fully covered. Portrayed as rather masculine/tomboyish, she's basically a female Ryu in appearance (except Ryu has his sleeves ripped off ).

> Ibuki - The Kunoichi, but unlike what you would expect a videogame female ninja to wear (revealing tight leather or something) Ibuki is covered head-to-toe in sensible Dojo clothing with baggy pants.

> Rose - The sorceress/mage. Her attire covers her entire body except the arms/shoulders, going for a very dressy-elegant look (dat huge magical scarf ), something you might spot a rich-people party.

> Crimson Viper - She wears a business suit + black heels and a tie, the only thing that stands-out about her is that she doesn't have her shirt buttoned all the way up and has her breast area slightly open.

Mind you I'm only taking about Super Street Fighter IV, but given the sheer size of the character roster I would consider SSFIV the best representative out of the SF series. It is very much the "complete" SF experience.

I was ninja'd to Elena, so how about Poison? ... Nah, nevermind. Poison's got quite a history/controvercy.

I generally agree with your assessment of characters of SSFIV. I'm looking at it from a person used to these sorts of designs as a lot of gamers areas when I agree, though.
I try and look at things as a person looking at screen shots not knowing much of anything about the game when trying to empathise with newcomers.

I'd say Chun Li was risque back when she debuted, though. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if there were guys trying to pause the game at just the right frame in her Spinning Bird Kick to this day, though.
Still, by today's standards she's pretty modest. She has an extremely iconic look.

'm kinda on the fence about Viper as far as a snap judgement would go. Her large breasts, and the cleavage, obviously stand out. Still, she's in a suit.
Looking beyond snap judgements about her appearance (I can't help but think she has some design inspiration from Iori Yagami from King of Fighters, or posibly Vice from KoF.) she's a mother, she's a professional. She's seemingly a sensible woman, odd hair (to me, anyhow) and clothes syle aside.
On an off note, I'd say Juri Han is poking fun at SNK's Kim Kaphwan, practically her opposite in terms of well, lots of things. Still, both are Korean Taekwondo practitioners, both are from Korea, and the Capcom/SNK Rivalry should be common fighting game history knowledge here. But that's neither here nor there, or sumfin.

Rose's top is form fitting in some art. Semi-cleavage over a corsette, but that's up to the viewer I suppopse.

'm not sying the sexualization is the rule in SSFIV, but I am saying it is there. I'm not saying it's bad per say, but if Cammy is the first impression a woman gets from looking at the game, it might be adverse.

But yeah, in the world of gaming, in terms of the big picture, your assessment is pretty dead on.
Even the Box art isn't terribly damning.

It's the ability to make character design discussions about fighting games is easily why they don't catch as much heat, or even attention in threads like this, IMO. It's why I appreciate fighting games as a genre.
Wide opinions on appearances/representation = less focus.

 

[wulf3n]

snip

Thank you for proving my point. Without evidence to prove our claims all we really do is yell at one another and no discussion can be had.

I'm not questioning the existence of said events, merely the cause behind them. You believe it stems from misogyny, I believe it stems from something else, until either one of us has evidence, no discussion can be had and will inevitably lead to exchanging thinly veiled insults.

If I may ask a legitimate question, because you appear to be vested in the subject, Let's for a minute assume the problem does stem from misogyny can you explain how feminism is going to stop it?

 

[GryffinDarkBreed]

Feminism in the United States can sod off until I see them protesting male genital mutilation as hard as they protest men having simple discussions.

You want to see systemic violence and hatred, Feminists? Look no further than the topic of circumcision.

Female Circumcision: EVIL! BAN IT, BAN IT NOW. THAT IS HORRIBLE.

Male Circumcision: Genital mutilation? It's just a little bit of skin man, get over it.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

I can certainly understand why you'd favor PCs.

Where the girl power games went was generally off the radar, largely. At least to a console gamer.
I honestly think if Mirror's Edge 2 flops it won't be because of the game, rather names attached to it, one rather polarizing, and exclusivity to PC and Xbone.
Of course that won't free the female protagonist from blame no matter how good the game actually is.

Women face the sme problems in the gaming industry as they do elsewhere, stuff that I don't really care to go into. They can get into the industry, but there's obstacles women alone face.

I know indie games can scratch some itches, and I'm fairly aware of the more prominent indie games and the one that make it to console. I'm not saying they're bad, I'm saying that I can't sustain myself off them. they're worth getting into if one can, though.

Didn't know Mirrors Edge 2 won't come to PS4. Seems strange to me.
Giant bomb lists it as PC/XBONE/PS4...

Yea, it won't be easy. But look at Studio Clover. All female manga/anime studio (i heard they included some men as aditional workers when they grw really big). Highly sucsessful. It can be done.

I'd be surprised if Mirror's Edge 2 comes out on PS4, but even then, the very idea that Anita Sarkeesian is on board with the game's development, or even connected to the game might doom the game, as polarizing as she is. >.>
It's a more solid than not rumor as far as I go, though. I don't revel in saying rumors, I do it for the sake of providing potential potholes in the game's sales. I fully expect a lot of people to say "What? She's involved? Not buying the game!"

Clover is an awesome Developer. I have more than a few of their games including Okami, and God Hand. It's a shame they kinda fell off the map, though. I'm not sure what they're doing currently. :/

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Look at the kind of language you are using to describe something you think is negative:
?indulges in pandering? --> It?s like you are talking about people taking part in some sort of orgy and not a design choice in a video game: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/orgy

1. A revel involving unrestrained indulgence, especially sexual activity.
2. Uncontrolled or immoderate indulgence in an activity: an orgy of spending. See Synonyms at binge.

I'm really not sure why you felt compelled to offer up dictionary definitions of the word "orgy", since that was a word you supplied, and was found nowhere in the post you quoted. This would appear to be a case of projection. "Indulging" is a value neutral word. I could say "I plan on indulging myself with some pizza tonight", and the only implication would be that I enjoy pizza. It's notable, as well, that Bioware cheerfully panders to both genders. While I think that kind of fan service is artistically juvenile, you cannot really accuse them of playing favorites as far as gender is concerned without being mildly churlish.

guilty of objectification? --> To be guilty of something you would have had to have done something wrong. This is simply a differing opinion on depiction of something in a video game.

You are using ?objectification? to imply a negative connotation, the same way as using ?sexism? for anything that displays sexuality to imply the same.

I'm using "objectification" to describe what, to me, is a pretty cut and dry instance of it. I understand you wish to debate that claim, and that's fine. I imagine we could sit here all day going back and forth on the subject and end up no further enriched than when we began.

Am I using it in a negative connotation? Most certainly. In the same way I might blast a game for a hackneyed plot, or an overused game play element, or shoddy technical work.

As for Sexism...I dislike employing it as an umbrella term, I think it leads to laziness in expression and constant miscommunications. There is a wide gap between "Let's just make her a pair of tits and be done with it" and "No promotions for you, women are simply incapable of the quality of work we expect from our employees", right? But as Wikipedia has so helpfully included "objectification" under the general heading of sexism I guess we're heading towards a colloquial nightmare where "sexism" can encompass pretty much anything. Hurray.

The portrayal of virtual characters in a story isn?t comprised in that definition and they can?t really be ?discriminated? against or ?objectified? since they are in the truest sense of the word objects (look up an OpenGL object graph) and not real persons.

This is a pretty weak argument. Art and media does not exist in a vacuum. It is informed by social values, and in turn it can help inform social values. I'm sure you can appreciate how, say, black face could contribute to hostile attitudes towards African Americans. The same can just as easily be true if you constantly portray a gender in an extremely sexualized fashion. To what degree this influences any given individual's attitudes will of course depend on that individual and their ability to think critically about stereotypes or exaggerated imagery, but there is still plenty of room for a dialogue about it.

And frankly, as previously stated, in the case of Dragon's Crown it's just artistically lazy. I appreciate that this is subjective, but I'd need to hear a pretty compelling argument about why it's not before I'll budge on that. If nothing else it is biologically absurd, and its status as fantasy is a pretty thin shield from that particular charge.

In fact being able to put such characters into positions and situations one wouldn?t put real persons or they wouldn?t want to be in and creating fantasies is often the point of games and movies in the first place.

You see every single enemy you get to kill or that dies in an action movie would be "objectified" as a victim, every single NPC you need to save would be "objectified" as useless until Player Character X comes along to save the day, every single body would be "objectified" as a corpse/casualty. It just doesn't make any sense, especially for fiction.

I'm going to be completely honest here...I don't know if you're being willfully facetious, whether you misunderstand what objectification is, or whether you think I am deeply stupid and would consider this relevant to anything we are discussing. In the case of the latter, my response is "Hey!". You can picture my aggrieved expression.

As far as I can tell, the ?logic? implied to arrive to such conclusions is reached only by jumping through various hoops and performing a high degree of mental gymnastics, even based on feminist ?social studies? and theories (which I don't take at face value for not being scientific), by first applying the theory of sexual objectification [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_objectification] which isn?t uncontroversial even amongst those circles:

Sexual objectification is the act of treating a person merely as an instrument of sexual pleasure, making them a "sex object".

Mmm. Remember earlier in the thread, when you accused me of using negative language? There are lots of ways to do that. One way is to put "quotes" around every "term" you want to "hand wave" or imply is "dubious". I'm not really going to take you to task for it as it's something I've done many, many, many times. It's a subtle form of aggressive dismissal that allows you to undermine someone's position without putting any work in. Really though, given our disparate positions on this issue, it's a miracle this discussion has been relatively civil thus far. I think we'd both prefer it stay that way. You probably wanna stop doing the quotes thing.

This is very much ?moral criticism? you are trying to deal out and implies judgment. You are using that kind of vocabulary and are telling me you don?t want to claim the moral upper hand.

I'm still confused by this upper hand fixation of yours. Is it your contention that we are partaking of this debate to discover who is the more ethical person? Is there someone keeping score? What happens if one of us succeeds? Do we get a badge? Do we get Paragon points?

At any point in this discussion have I impugned your morals or accused you of being an immoral person?

Frankly I find the very notion absurd. I'm not even entirely sure how to address it because it's so ridiculous.

It isn?t about the name-calling as such, it is about what using these words to paint the opposition says and tries to imply on a moral level. It isn?t ?I don?t like your work? that this implies, it is ?You are a bad person, and you should feel ashamed and change your work.?

Projection. All criticism implies that the work should be changed, though, and thus improved. Whether or not artists take criticism on board depends entirely on how valid they think it is.

You know exactly that I didn?t want to compare this 1:1 at a face value, the reasoning behind what you are calling ?criticism? is the same. You believe yourself as having the moral upper hand over anyone that would argue against most of this because of a higher calling or goal.

Then don't say it. I went through this same bullshit during the DRM debates in threads around the time SimCity was coming out. It's fine to feel passionate about gaming subjects, but the minute you start drawing real world parallels to Rosa Parks, or the Holocaust, or in this case the Crusades, you have lost perspective. It is comedic hyperbole, and does not serve your argument well in the slightest. Either find a better analogy, or abandon the idea of analogy entirely and find a different way to present your position.

As for the moral upper hand business...I would argue attempting to compare your opponent's position to the FUCKING CRUSADES would qualify, wouldn't you?

 

[wulf3n]

And frankly, as previously stated, in the case of Dragon's Crown it's just artistically lazy. I appreciate that this is subjective, but I'd need to hear a pretty compelling argument about why it's not before I'll budge on that. If nothing else it is biologically absurd, and its status as fantasy is a pretty thin shield from that particular charge.

I'm curious, in what way is dragons crown artistically "lazy". Is it easier to design biologically absurd characters?

 

[Norithics]

3. Before we can draw a line between "Sexist" and "Not Sexist", we must define what a person is. Many people will come to different conclusions on both the definition of a "Normal" person and where the sexist line should be drawn.

I agree with 1 and 2, but my god does number 3 just compound my conviction that we need way better labels for the new sphere of this issue. The fact is that when we discuss sexism (and for that matter, racism) in the context of your average individual, it is really not an intentional blunder, or even an ill-meaning ignorance. More often than not, these issues are completely unintentional and even subconscious decisions being made, and it just feels so unfair and counterproductive to slap people with the same label as cigar-chomping stereotypes from the 50s who think "dames with jobs are nothing but trouble" just because they lack perspective. I was horrendously sexist when I was eight, but I grew out of it. This model of irredeemable pigeonholing just cannot go anywhere positive.

I'm curious, in what way is dragons crown artistically "lazy". Is it easier to design biologically absurd characters?

Speaking as someone who does exactly that, no. Not really. You have to work just as hard if you're going to make it convincing. But I think it was more in the context of the "ideas" phase. Like, "Eh, let's have a really chesty sexpot as the magic user" burns less creative calories than maybe something that doesn't get that hormone push.

 

[Divine Miss Bee]

until there is no longer such a question as "does feminism belong in (thing)?" the answer will be YES.

Because feminism can never morph into something bad or be unneeded?

treating all people equally will never be a bad thing, no. and treating everyone equally will never stop being necessary. can i ask why the desire for equality and the actions people take that are motivated by that desire is apparently seen by you as a bad or unnecessary thing as soon as the person asking for it is female (or believes that there are parts of that issue mean that institutions and world powers need to change how they treat women-there are male feminists too)? and i don't want a cheap answer, or for you to sidestep the question. there's quite enough of that on the escapist.

you imply that the desire to see men and women treated equally in politics, social settings, and the workplace (also known as "feminism") is bad or unnecessary. so defend that perspective or clarify your own. cheap potshots at the expense of things you clearly don't understand don't cut it in reasoned discussion, so try again.

 

[wulf3n]

until there is no longer such a question as "does feminism belong in (thing)?" the answer will be YES.

Because feminism can never morph into something bad or be unneeded?

treating all people equally will never be a bad thing, no. and treating everyone equally will never stop being necessary. can i ask why the desire for equality and the actions people take that are motivated by that desire is apparently seen by you as a bad or unnecessary thing as soon as the person asking for it is female (or believes that there are parts of that issue mean that institutions and world powers need to change how they treat women-there are male feminists too)? and i don't want a cheap answer, or for you to sidestep the question. there's quite enough of that on the escapist.

you imply that the desire to see men and women treated equally in politics, social settings, and the workplace (also known as "feminism") is bad or unnecessary. so defend that perspective or clarify your own. cheap potshots at the expense of things you clearly don't understand don't cut it in reasoned discussion, so try again.

Rather than asking "Should feminism exist in (thing)?" we should ask "What can feminism do to prevent abuse and discrimination in (thing)?

Those that cause the issues being discussed are consciously acting against the ideals of feminism, whether it's due to misogyny or trolling is irrelevant, exposure to feminism isn't going to change their opinions.

 

[nuttshell]

I must say that I have bunch of problems with Feminist movement but most of all you can't have equality by adressing problems of one side going even to levels of giving taht movement power of deciding what equality is (in Canada for example). When one has power unchecked, even if it has best of intention, it will abuse it one time or another. We can't be objective without having counterweight to stop us from steering off.

In most western developed countries, the feminist movement has pretty much allready done it's job. We aren't perfectly equal in our rights but we are pretty close. But under the guise of the feminist previous glory, insidious people pour their stupid bullshit everywhere they can (like in Canada or Norway).

But that is off topic.

This whole thread has been off-topic from page 1. Seeing as how intellectually challenging the opening post is, there's nothing wrong about that, imho. No hard feelings OP, you'll still get a badge.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

This is a pretty weak argument. Art and media does not exist in a vacuum. It is informed by social values, and in turn it can help inform social values. I'm sure you can appreciate how, say, black face could contribute to hostile attitudes towards African Americans. The same can just as easily be true if you constantly portray a gender in an extremely sexualized fashion. To what degree this influences any given individual's attitudes will of course depend on that individual and their ability to think critically about stereotypes or exaggerated imagery, but there is still plenty of room for a dialogue about it.

And frankly, as previously stated, in the case of Dragon's Crown it's just artistically lazy. I appreciate that this is subjective, but I'd need to hear a pretty compelling argument about why it's not before I'll budge on that. If nothing else it is biologically absurd, and its status as fantasy is a pretty thin shield from that particular charge.

In fact being able to put such characters into positions and situations one wouldn?t put real persons or they wouldn?t want to be in and creating fantasies is often the point of games and movies in the first place.

More of this bull about the art-style being lazy? Look, you can fight for feminism, you can say that you don't like the style, you can say you don't like it if a woman is made to have big breasts or huge muscles or what have you. But don't start trying to now argue that that artwork is lazy, it's something you find offensive, it is not lazy. Lazy is drawing a stick figure, drawing the kinds of characters, creatures and places that Vanilaware has is NOT lazy.

until there is no longer such a question as "does feminism belong in (thing)?" the answer will be YES.

Because feminism can never morph into something bad or be unneeded?

treating all people equally will never be a bad thing, no. and treating everyone equally will never stop being necessary. can i ask why the desire for equality and the actions people take that are motivated by that desire is apparently seen by you as a bad or unnecessary thing as soon as the person asking for it is female (or believes that there are parts of that issue mean that institutions and world powers need to change how they treat women-there are male feminists too)? and i don't want a cheap answer, or for you to sidestep the question. there's quite enough of that on the escapist.

you imply that the desire to see men and women treated equally in politics, social settings, and the workplace (also known as "feminism") is bad or unnecessary. so defend that perspective or clarify your own. cheap potshots at the expense of things you clearly don't understand don't cut it in reasoned discussion, so try again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GO_X4DkwA_Q

 

[V8 Ninja]

3. Before we can draw a line between "Sexist" and "Not Sexist", we must define what a person is. Many people will come to different conclusions on both the definition of a "Normal" person and where the sexist line should be drawn.

I agree with 1 and 2, but my god does number 3 just compound my conviction that we need way better labels for the new sphere of this issue. The fact is that when we discuss sexism (and for that matter, racism) in the context of your average individual, it is really not an intentional blunder, or even an ill-meaning ignorance. More often than not, these issues are completely unintentional and even subconscious decisions being made, and it just feels so unfair and counterproductive to slap people with the same label as cigar-chomping stereotypes from the 50s who think "dames with jobs are nothing but trouble" just because they lack perspective. I was horrendously sexist when I was eight, but I grew out of it. This model of irredeemable pigeonholing just cannot go anywhere positive.

I guess what I was trying to get to with that point is that everybody is going to draw their lines in entirely different places on entirely different continents. You're never going to get 100% agreement on whether X is sexist and Y isn't. I seem to have relayed that message in a not-so-direct way. My apologies.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

More of this bull about the art-style being lazy? Look, you can fight for feminism, you can say that you don't like the style, you can say you don't like it if a woman is made to have big breasts or huge muscles or what have you. But don't start trying to now argue that that artwork is lazy, it's something you find offensive, it is not lazy. Lazy is drawing a stick figure, drawing the kinds of characters, creatures and places that Vanilaware has is NOT lazy.

I'm sorry, but I don't find this "your opinion is invalid because of my opinion" intercourse particularly riveting. However, I'll file away for future consideration that Specter Von Baren disagrees about the DC art issue, so that you won't feel that your effort was wasted.

I'm curious, in what way is dragons crown artistically "lazy". Is it easier to design biologically absurd characters?

Putting the issue of pandering or objectification aside entirely, is it easier to design a character with one egregiously exaggerated feature which becomes the focal point of the character than it is to design a character that is more subtle or nuanced? I don't know. You tell me. I'm sure an art student could weigh in on it.

 

[wulf3n]

Putting the issue of pandering or objectification aside entirely, is it easier to design a character with one egregiously exaggerated feature which becomes the focal point of the character than it is to design a character that is more subtle or nuanced? I don't know. You tell me. I'm sure an art student could weigh in on it.

I'm not the one insulting the designers because of an art style I disagree with. If you're going to call someone lazy the least you can do is actually be able to explain why you believe they're worthy of said insult.

 

[nuttshell]

Lazy is drawing a stick figure...

In this day and age of animation, not even stick figures are enough to say the artist was lazy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9LZUZYJ7bQ
And the origin:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3sexvJM5Go

I tried a few things out with flash animations and I can tell you, it takes hours and hours to do even 30 seconds of this stuff.

I can't understand people who think that Dragon's Crown's art is lazy unless they didn't do any artistic work since the age of 5. Even without the mythological reference behind the sorceress' concept, you just can't say it's lazy...