Should Heroes That Kill Be Heroes?

[MrAkuma201]

This will be a black and white debate if that heroes that kill should be heroes no anti-hero stuff in this topic. Some examples of heroes that kill are Wolverine,Red Hulk,Hawkeye,Punisher,Dr. Strange,Cyclops,Deadpool?,Wonder Woman,Green Lantern (Hal Jordan),Superman and Green Arrow.

I think more heroes need to take a page out of Red Hoods book. how meany lives can they save by only taking one?

 

[WolfThomas]

Why does it have to be black and white? There is certainly a difference between Punisher level killing and Captain America who kills only war or when there is truly no other option.

 

[DoPo]

I didn't know the Punisher was considered a hero. I thought he was an anti-hero. Then again, I don't follow comics, so I might have that wrong.

 

[Amethyst Wind]

Superman does not kill.

Deadpool is not a hero. Never was, never will be. He is a crazy lunatic and mass murderer.

More fun because of it.

On the topic of killing and heroes, Jason Todd would have a lot to say.

 

[Scarim Coral]

Funny thing, I was looking at this when I saw this thread http://www.comicvine.com/news/off-my-mind-should-heroes-that-kill-be-allowed-in-the-avengers/144694/ .
Well ok it's abit different (since it's about should the Avengers recuit a hero that kills but it's somewhat relevent.

OT- While a hero shouldn't kills but there will be times when a hero may have to do it (just as long it was justify).
E.g. Wonder Woman snap Maxwell Lord neck, he was the supervillain who was mind controlling Superman on a rampage. She use the lasso of turth on him to reveal the truth on how to stop the mind control and Maxwell admit the only way the control is stop is by killing him. Needless to say while she stop the mind control Batman and Superman did not approved of her meathods (and that's just putting it nicely).

While you say that killing is justify but wouldn't this make the hero more colder in a way (possibly psychological damage) and this in turn will only make the civilians only fear a superhero that kills (who to say that the superhero would turn on them) especially the children by given them the message that it's ok to killed supervillain or bad people?

 

[Sixcess]

It depends on how well it's written.

One thing I do dislike is when a hero kills for no reason other than to be 'dark' and 'edgy.' That happened a lot in the 90s.

And as MovieBob is fond of reminding us, "The 90s sucked."

I'm somewhat conflicted on the subject really. Most of my favourite relatively recent titles are very violent - The Boys, The Punisher (as written by Garth Ennis) - and that's ok, they're not really mainstream heroes. On the other hand, one thing that put me off Marvel was the almost pornographic levels of violence they sank to with things like Marvel Zombies and a lot of the Ultimate universe stuff.

Put it a different way - I enjoy say Mark Miller's stuff when he's overdoing it in a work of his own creation like Wanted, but I can't stand it when he applies that mentality to 'traditional' comic book heroes.

And Superman shouldn't kill. Ever. That's simply not what he does.

 

[Gordon_4_v1legacy]

E.g. Wonder Woman snap Maxwell Lord neck, he was the supervillain who was mind controlling Superman on a rampage. She use the lasso of turth on him to reveal the truth on how to stop the mind control and Maxwell admit the only way the control is stop is by killing him. Needless to say while she stop the mind control Batman and Superman did not approved of her meathods (and that's just putting it nicely).

I was not happy about that, the way they treated her was fucking attrocious. They didn't have to like it, but they still should have supported their friend.


OP: It all depends on your setup; a Captain America that didn't kill during WWII wouldn't have been a hero, he'd have been a fucking idiot. However, he is right in restraining himself from doing so in his day to day heroics because it usually isn't needed. Superman doesn't because most of the time, simply being there ends the fight: Metropolis would not sleep soundly knowing that Superman is killing petty thugs because they might do it again.

This is one of the BIG differences I've noticed between DC and Marvel. In Marvel, The Avengers (so far that I've seen) work for SHIELD who are a government organisation; therefore they are a para-military unit and when the need arises, most of them wouldn't have a problem in killing the bad guy and they have backing; they answer to SHIELD and to some degree, the public.

The Justice League however are an organisation unto themselves. They operate without external oversight from any particular country or body of government and aren't bound by treaties of the US (which a sizable portion of its power base are from) but have instead negotiated and signed their own treaties with other nations.


Also, the Punisher is a douchebag and shouldn't get within spitting distance of membership to The Avengers.....ever.

 

[Kinokohatake]

I would have to go the other way around. Heroes that don't kill are partly responsible for the crimes of those that they didn't kill. Batman to me is the worst offender in this. How many people has the Joker, Mr Freeze, the Riddler, Killer Croc, and all the rest killed after their first appearance. Well we know Jason Todd wouldn't have been killed, and Oracle wouldn't have been in a wheel chair.

Or Superman. His greatest enemy Darkseid, has killed a lot of people but he still refuses to kill him. I would want a hero that does what needs to be done.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Depends on the circumstances. But a hero that won't kill no matter what is only marginally worse than a hero that will kill no matter what.

Look at how things work in the real world, the police have weapons for a reason. If someone is threatening the life of a group of hostages, a police sniper that decides killing is bad and refuses to fire is going to have questions to answer.

 

[Gordon_4_v1legacy]

I would have to go the other way around. Heroes that don't kill are partly responsible for the crimes of those that they didn't kill. Batman to me is the worst offender in this. How many people has the Joker, Mr Freeze, the Riddler, Killer Croc, and all the rest killed after their first appearance. Well we know Jason Todd wouldn't have been killed, and Oracle wouldn't have been in a wheel chair.

Killing them isn't the Justice League's job, they aren't a judical arm of any government or any of them sworn officers of the Law. They deliver them to the authorities; and if they want them dead, they can do it. Although Green Lantern, as a space cop, should have the option if he deems it the right thing to do at the time.

Or Superman. His greatest enemy Darkseid, has killed a lot of people but he still refuses to kill him. I would want a hero that does what needs to be done.

To be honest I'm not convinced that Darkseid can be killed. Plus, Darkseid isn't one man like the Joker, Darksied is the ruler of another planet who's sole purpose in life is conquest and war in his name. If Superman did kill Darksied, then that becomes a unilateral declaration of war by Earth on Apokolips and they would swiftly and mercilessly invade with the intention razing Earth and her people to the ground. To see an end to Darksied, Apokolips itself would have to be destroyed and every soul there snuffed out.

Killing Darksied, I can see Superman doing it one day, but destroying a whole world....not so much.

Plus I just accept this as a conceit of the genre on DC's part and roll with it.

 

[JoJo]

I'd say that a hero has good reason to kill someone if they show credible threats to innocent life, or even as a punishment if there is no law enforcement to provide one (for example if someone was fighting a corrupt regime, they could be justified in executing the leaders if they got the chance). Of course when we're talking about a comic book situation though, it's more to keep the villains returning issue after issue than to make a moral statement.

 

[Reggie Rock]

I would have to go the other way around. Heroes that don't kill are partly responsible for the crimes of those that they didn't kill. Batman to me is the worst offender in this. How many people has the Joker, Mr Freeze, the Riddler, Killer Croc, and all the rest killed after their first appearance. Well we know Jason Todd wouldn't have been killed, and Oracle wouldn't have been in a wheel chair.

Or Superman. His greatest enemy Darkseid, has killed a lot of people but he still refuses to kill him. I would want a hero that does what needs to be done.

Batman literally CANNOT kill his enemies. The story of batman is unique because its characters all have psychological reasons for what they do. Batman can't kill because he views it as being as bad as those who killed his parents (Which was kind of a big deal). If the joker regularly went after superman, he would win. Because the jokers purpose has always been to GET to batman. To make him snap. But batman's psyche allows him to overcome this.

in short, you can't judge batman by your morals, because batman is better than every person ever to exist ever.

 

[Auron225]

Something I realised a while back is that in so few Disney films does the protagonist actually kill the villain themselves. Its very often an accident of some kind.

Tarzan - Clayton hung himself
Peter Pan - If Hook dies, its by crocodile
Aladdin - Jafar is just sealed in a lamp
Lion King - Scar was killed by the hyennas
Snow White - The queen falls from a cliff while the dwarves are chasing her
Beauty & the Beast - Gaston falls from the castle (he wasnt exactly pushed)
Hercules - He punches Hades and he falls into a river of souls, but hes immortal...
The Princess and the Frog - Kinda dragged into hell by Voodoo so its not nice but even so, it wasn't really Tiana's doing.

Then there are others like Yzma, The Queen of Hearts, etc that don't die at all. Of course some do - Maleficient, Ursula & Shan Yu for example die and its plain old murder (although even Shan Yu's is questionnable) but in any case, Disney seemed uncomfortable with having their heroes kill. I wonder is it cause its aimed at kids and they dont really want to justify murder to children...?

 

[Scarim Coral]

I would have to go the other way around. Heroes that don't kill are partly responsible for the crimes of those that they didn't kill. Batman to me is the worst offender in this. How many people has the Joker, Mr Freeze, the Riddler, Killer Croc, and all the rest killed after their first appearance. Well we know Jason Todd wouldn't have been killed, and Oracle wouldn't have been in a wheel chair.

Or Superman. His greatest enemy Darkseid, has killed a lot of people but he still refuses to kill him. I would want a hero that does what needs to be done.

Since when are superheroes above the laws since killing somebody is against the law? Ok sure there are times when this doesn't apply in real life but even then if they were declare the right to do so it would be paranoia to some people in fear of them abusing their powers and the law.

 

[lRookiel]

The comedian was considered a hero, yet he was a sadistic murdering socio-path.

 

[Pinkamena]

The comedian was considered a hero, yet he was a sadistic murdering socio-path.

You gotta consider the context. Watchmen was pretty dark, and such things as what's morally right and what's not was pretty washed out.

 

[MelasZepheos_v1legacy]

Depends on so much.

Wonder Woman killing Maxwell Lord is very different to the Red Hood slaughtering low level punks. She used the lassoo of truth to get him to admit that the only way to stop the mind control on Superman was to kill him. There was no other option, he had to die, and he had to die then.

Captain America killed during World War II, and should have done, because that is part of war. Punisher is an anti-hero, Wolverine is THE anti-hero from which all other comic book anti-heroes spring. Hawkeye apparently had a strictly no-kill policy for years which has only recently started to be re-written. Superman never kills, ever. Deadpool is an amoral psychopath and about half of them I can't find any record of them killing in the 616 or Earth 1 universe. when has Cyclops or Superman Doctor Strange killed?

I don't think heroes that kill are heroes, unless there are major extenuating cirucmstances, such as killing being the single recourse, or in a time of war. Heroes need to act within the remit of the law, and so their job is to bring criminals to justice, not to administer the justice themselves.

 

[Jegsimmons]

Punisher is an extreme vigilante you kills and ignores due process....not a hero, but a 'good' guy.

Deadpool is a merc who right now is TRYING to be a hero and do good deeds (and has done so in a few cases) but as of now he has REDEEMED himself a tad bit but circumstances (life) dont allow him to be a good guy.

the others probably killed in extreme cases, kind of like shooting a guy whos about to kill someone.

so the factors vary too much to decide. it needs to be on an individual basis.


wolverine, i dont care, he's annoying in the comics....needs to be more hughe jackman-ish.