Should I buy SimCity?

[MammothBlade]

The implication is that having no offline mode, and always-online DRM will ruin the game experience and value for money so much that it doesn't matter if there's some sort of pretty game underneath. Buying it now would definitely be a mistake at least.

What implication?

The OP states IN THE OP that he is aware of the DRM and hates it, then goes on to ask about Origin, whether the game is worth getting anyway, and whether the general consensus is that a purchase of the game will result in future games adopting the same DRM. And what happens?

Post after post of "HURR DURR NO DON'T BUY IT DID U NO IT HAS DRM?"

I understand people LOVE to grind axes on this forum. Like, they could change the name from "gaming forum" to "axe grinding" forum, but it's not like reading a 5-6 sentence OP and responding to it as requested is a monumental fucking challenge, is it?

This is probably my favorite exchange on the subject of SimCity and its crappy DRM to date:

What about those with unstable connections? Or people with capped bandwidth, the game will be unplayable for them at times.

Not only that, but the implication that Sim City 2013 is unmoddable.

I'm unsure of whether or not it's dumbed down and tailored to instant gratification, but forcing multiplayer to get the full game content that should by all rights be in single player anyway doesn't bode well from the start.

While I agree its disappointing that those people who wish to play solo have to wait in a server queue, in the grand scheme of playing the game it will most likely be alleviated in a few days so not something really indicative of overall gameplay.

"No, don't touch it with a f**king barge pole", How about approaching the issue with a bit of maturity. The game has been what looks like completely overhauled, great graphics, nice gameplay, deep logistics, new design ideas. Well worth a look at if your into such games. yeah again the server thing is disappointing, so buy it maybe in a week or so.

Also just looking at the photo A NO. 1 server on launch yeah its going to be busy

For me, it's too much of a glaring issue to be overlooked. And there's no guarantee that EA won't shut down the server when it wants people to buy the next installment. EA has too much control over peoples' ability to play the game, and if you somehow violate the TOS, intentionally or not all your always-online games will be unplayable even in single player. Yes, this is about EA's practices in general. EA needs to be hit hard in the wallet to understand that these sorts of restrictive, punishing DRM mechanisms are not acceptable.

The game might be good, it might be great underneath those shackles, but the shackles preclude actually buying the game.

 

[ToastiestZombie]

Change the thread title, you can't buy Sim City, only rent it. A purchase implies that the thing your purchasing is yours to keep until you either use (for things like food), sell it or throw it away, EA can take away the ability to play the game at any time. All you're actually purchasing are the files you download and the title screens.

OT: If you haven't noticed already, the always-online DRM is why I definitely won't be buying it. I can still play Sim City 4 9 years after its launch, you really think EA will keep the Sim City servers up for 9 years? That and the tiny-ass sizes of the cities, and the massive overpricing here in the UK are two of the other big factors.

Now don't get me wrong, I actually kind of like the look of the game. It looks fun, but until they take away always-online, make the cities bigger and price it at normal PC game price I won't be buying it.

And I still need to hone my Sim City 4 skills quite a lot.

 

[Akisa]

I've watched a few videos of it and it looks really good and fun. I love games like that.
One thing I hate with it is the always online DRM. I really want the game, but I don't want to support that crap DRM.


What do you think I should do?


And do you think that if SimCity sells well, do you think that DRM like that will be more regular?

EDIT: And I haven't tried Origin yet, but I've heard nothing good about it. Honestly, How bad is it?

I would say no, don't reward anti consumer DRM.

Would you mind describing to me how this is Anti Consumer DRM? I have yet to see how this falls under those lines, but would like to know more?

Alright how do I play offline?

 

[ThriKreen]

Eh, that doesn't really sound like something for me. I like the fact that you can play with friends, but I want that to be a thing I choose, not something I've been forced into by the game.

The thing is, it was always designed from the start to be multiplayer oriented. So do you complain about say, Counter-Strike or TeamFortress 2 to be a shallow game if all you ever do is play against bots? If that's not to your liking, fine, pick up SimCity 4 on Steam for $20 [http://store.steampowered.com/app/24780/?snr=1_7_7_151_150_1] and have fun.

I do wish they would replicate the closed beta as a demo, like basically give you 1hr to play a city, one plot of land, limited buildings. Let people try it out, online connection and all, to see if they want to buy it.

I can't tell you which games will offer the most fun vs. inconveniences to you, since everyone has their own thresholds and preferences. But that's the beauty of such a big industry, there's bound to be something you can play and enjoy, rather than rage over one game that doesn't fit your preferences.

So is it fun if you don't have a large group of friends? I only have a handful of gamer friends and none of them are into this genre. I'm not interested in making friends to play a game (I'm trying to say that in a non-asshole way lol).

You can join open regions, much like pick-up games / quickmatch. And hope the other people in your region can chat in english.

Or you can solo a private region and tackle each city plot on your own - the inactive cities "pause" when you're not managing them but their in-going and out-going resources stay the same, so the neighboring cities can take advantage to ease the initial start up. Dedicate a city to be all industrial, producing power from a dirty coal burning power plant, another to supply the residents, and the current one to be commercial and attract tourists from all over for the casinos, shopping and landmarks.

One of the big complaints regarding the game design is from people being too "old-school" in regards to SimCity playing and not focusing on the multiple regions aspect, trying to get one big uber city and hitting the limits of the smaller plot size. You HAVE to branch out and specialize, or have friends to help and collaborate.

You can expect them to offer larger plots in the future, hence why there's some padding between cities instead of them being right up against each other.

It can get a bit tedious jumping in and out from region to city view, since it has to load up the city and stream the data from the server farm. Wish there was some way to have a local cache to speed it up, especially for the cities you manage since they won't change until you go back to managing them.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

What about those with unstable connections? Or people with capped bandwidth, the game will be unplayable for them at times.

If online play is a deal breaker, obviously a game with an online requirement is not a wise purchase.

Not only that, but the implication that Sim City 2013 is unmoddable.

It likely will be, which is unfortunate. If lack of mod support is a deal breaker, it is again not a wise purchase.

I'm unsure of whether or not it's dumbed down and tailored to instant gratification, but forcing multiplayer to get the full game content that should by all rights be in single player anyway doesn't bode well from the start.

I don't really like this "should be" rhetoric. There is no writ that says a game "should be" anything. Ultimately the market will determine whether or not a MP SimCity was a poor call. Not one or two guys on a forum issuing commandments.

If I was running EA, I'd have included an offline mode for goodwill purposes if nothing else. But if I was running EA I'd be doing a great many things that EA will never do. Since I'm not running EA, I'm left trying to decide whether their bullshit outweighs the quality of the product on a game by game basis.

The thing is, it was always designed from the start to be multiplayer oriented. So do you complain about say, Counter-Strike or TeamFortress 2 to be a shallow game if all you ever do is play against bots? If that's not to your liking, fine, pick up SimCity 4 on Steam for $20 [http://store.steampowered.com/app/24780/?snr=1_7_7_151_150_1] and have fun.

SC4 is still $20?

Eeeeeeeeesh. Feels like it should almost be abandonware by now.

 

[Vetta E-dom]

I've watched a few videos of it and it looks really good and fun. I love games like that.
One thing I hate with it is the always online DRM. I really want the game, but I don't want to support that crap DRM.


What do you think I should do?


And do you think that if SimCity sells well, do you think that DRM like that will be more regular?

EDIT: And I haven't tried Origin yet, but I've heard nothing good about it. Honestly, How bad is it?

I would say no, don't reward anti consumer DRM.

Would you mind describing to me how this is Anti Consumer DRM? I have yet to see how this falls under those lines, but would like to know more?

Alright how do I play offline?

Not sure if you were able to comprehend anti-consumer DRM. Also it was a question as in, Where specifically are the Digital Rights specifically creating issues where consumers of said products are intentionally punished for buying into said rights? Its an online game and your upset because you cant play offline. This isn't anti consumer, this is just more bitching from "Gamers" because they didn't get exactly what they wanted, and for a super cheap price because they deserve such.

I'm not exactly sure what your end goal is here. You don't seem to have any intention of wanting to like or even play the game.

 

[MammothBlade]

If online play is a deal breaker, obviously a game with an online requirement is not a wise purchase.

Exactly. That wasn't a problem with its predecessors. Yet it is with this iteration.

It likely will be, which is unfortunate. If lack of mod support is a deal breaker, it is again not a wise purchase.

*nods*

Of course there are plenty who don't care about modding and are actually attracted by multiplayer, unfortunately. Which makes it all the more important that those with bad feelings about restrictive DRM don't buy this game.

I don't really like this "should be" rhetoric. There is no writ that says a game "should be" anything. Ultimately the market will determine whether or not a MP SimCity was a poor call. Not one or two guys on a forum issuing commandments.

If I was running EA, I'd have included an offline mode for goodwill purposes if nothing else. But if I was running EA I'd be doing a great many things that EA will never do. Since I'm not running EA, I'm left trying to decide whether their bullshit outweighs the quality of the product on a game by game basis.

Of course, but I as an individual have the right to say what I think should and shouldn't be, if anything else. And thankfully much of the hivemind agrees, hopefully the verbal and commercial backlash will be enough, on the scale of Mass Effect 3, to make EA reconsider its practices.

 

[mfeff]

If you absolutely have to play it then I'd wait until there's a DRM crack, so you don't have to be always online or have to have Origin.

Not sure that will work. Like Diablo 3 part of the run time of the game is "server side", however that has been arranged. I have a quote around here somewhere that details that... I suppose this means that if one defines an "online" game as having a portion of the processing happening offsite then it is an "always-online" game regardless of playing with others or single. Just sayin...

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Of course there are plenty who don't care about modding and are actually attracted by multiplayer, unfortunately. Which makes it all the more important that those with bad feelings about restrictive DRM don't buy this game.

Well, I don't know how it's "unfortunate". There are going to be people for whom always online is not an issue, and those people might find this is to their liking. Say there's a game I can't play. It's an exclusive for another platform, or it has a kind of content that I disapprove of. If you buy said game and enjoy it, shall I scowl at you and say "That's unfortunate...in the future, they might make more games like this that you like, and I don't"?

Of course, but I as an individual have the right to say what I think should and shouldn't be, if anything else. And thankfully much of the hivemind agrees, hopefully the verbal and commercial backlash will be enough, on the scale of Mass Effect 3, to make EA reconsider its practices.

Totally. You can say "EA I really wish you'd have included an offline mode, you thundercunts, what were you thinking". I just don't like the term "should be", as if the existence of a prior, offline SimCity necessitates that all future incarnations of the IP also be offline. Similar arguments were made against World of Warcraft, and that game turned out alright.

A better argument is the question "Do the multiplayer components of this product represent a fair trade off for the ability to play offline". In Diablo 3's case, the answer was a fairly solid "no, not really". SimCity...it's debatable. I'd lean towards no as well.

It's a problematic game, really. It's a lot of fun, but has a lot of warts. I expect it to be highly divisive.

 

[Genocidicles]

Not sure that will work. Like Diablo 3 part of the run time of the game is "server side", however that has been arranged. I have a quote around here somewhere that details that... I suppose this means that if one defines an "online" game as having a portion of the processing happening offsite then it is an "always-online" game regardless of playing with others or single. Just sayin...

They cracked Diablo 3 eventually. Of course it's only the beta version, but that's better than being tied to the publisher's servers that wont be there in a few years time.

 

[Weaver]

Well, no one can play the game so now I really wouldn't buy it.
Welcome to the future of gaming.

There's even a 200+ page thread on the EA Support Forums saying their pre-order on Origin didn't unlock lol.

 

[masticina]

Ah it looks like a great game, even with its flaws like always online DRM.

But I do like its multi-city design. So yeah buy it.. but right now? No wait a week or maybe two. That way you don't join the rest in the "Error 37" que. Or well not really Error 37 but more "join the que"

Just give it a week then you can log in whenever you desire.

 

[Rachmaninov]

And I welcome the whining to continue, until people like EA stop trying to grind the industry into dust with their incompetence.

You've heard it all already. You know it doesn't fix anything. You know it only punishes the paying customers.

So it has to stop. I'm sorry that you're frustrated with people trying to stand up for themselves.

No, I'm frustrated with hyperbolists who equate their irritation with online DRM to the last proud man's stand against corporate tyranny. I'm frustrated with the complete and utter lack of even a semblance of objectivity, just flat out bandwagon jumping and mob mentality. I'm frustrated that normally rational people support this, because "hey...it doesn't matter if people are being objective and irrational, so long as it supports my position". I've seen the battle against online DRM likened to Rosa Parks and to the Holocaust. I've heard it called "this generation's war". I've seen advocates against it liken themselves to revolutionaries. DRM offends you? That's great. Stupid offends me.

I've given the subject quite a lot of thought, although I guess I've not given you any reason to think so. But trust me, I dislike DRM for my own reasons (some of which I've already stated in the quote you used) through a conclusion drawn on my own.

And while this isn't the "last proud man's stand against corporate tyranny" there's little doubt that "corporate tyranny" is afoot, and unless you want your games sold to you a piece at a time, while you jump through ever increasing hoops, I'd hope you'd make a stand.

I'm sorry to hear you've seen people be that stupid, but stop immediately tarring everyone who speaks out against DRM with that same brush.

So, if I say "I dislike X, but is the game good anyway?" and you say "No, X ruins it" that's you hijacking the thread to promote your agenda?

Without playing the game? With nothing more than a screenshot and a jibe? Yep.

Cool assumption, bro. Or is mind-reading your super power?

You've not so much as asked him or me if we've played the game, but you've just gone ahead and immediately assumed that we haven't.

All you've done is describe anything that can happen to any online game..

Indeed. And there is no good reason SimCity is an online game.

Sure, the multiplayer aspect of games is always online, and always subject to those problems.

But even if you play by yourself on SimCity, it's still online. And that's the problem.

Also DRM does not just punish the consumer

If not, then how comes every game, regardless of DRM, is always available to download illegally - usually barely hours after release? How exactly does DRM punish anyone except the consumer, then?

...a company has the right to protect its property how it seems fit, you as a consumer have the ability to decide if you are still willing to support said property.

While that's technically true, the game copy you buy is not their property, and they are not protecting your game from anyone.

In another thread, I likened DRM to a security guard who stands at the exit of a store, going through everyone's pockets before they can leave, regardless of how innocent you might be. Except this guard's half blind, and the actual thieves learn how to bypass him only a day after he is put in place. But his boss just tells him to carry on digging through peoples pockets, even though he's not catching the thieves and is just pissing the customers off.

DRM doesn't work, and it's a drum that people like EA should stop beating.

 

[MammothBlade]

Well, I don't know how it's "unfortunate". There are going to be people for whom always online is not an issue, and those people might find this is to their liking. Say there's a game I can't play. It's an exclusive for another platform, or it has a kind of content that I disapprove of. If you buy said game and enjoy it, shall I scowl at you and say "That's unfortunate...in the future, they might make more games like this that you like, and I don't"?

So, it's okay if they piss off the original fanbase by giving them an experience that is in some ways a downgrade?

Totally. You can say "EA I really wish you'd have included an offline mode, you thundercunts, what were you thinking". I just don't like the term "should be", as if the existence of a prior, offline SimCity necessitates that all future incarnations of the IP also be offline. Similar arguments were made against World of Warcraft, and that game turned out alright.

A better argument is the question "Do the multiplayer components of this product represent a fair trade off for the ability to play offline". In Diablo 3's case, the answer was a fairly solid "no, not really". SimCity...it's debatable. I'd lean towards no as well.

It's a problematic game, really. It's a lot of fun, but has a lot of warts. I expect it to be highly divisive.

World of Warcraft split from the original genre altogether and killed the original series. Many people were pissed off at that. Can you blame them? There hasn't been a Warcraft RTS since. I don't want the same thing to happen to SimCity, even if the paradigm shift isn't quite as dramatic.

If EA gets away with this, any future Sim City games will also have it. It's not a change that can be easily undone, and will render any always-online DRM versions unplayable once their lifecycle is up.

Sim City 4 isn't entirely perfect either, but it has an extensive modding base which means that people can alter the game in any way they see fit, even now that all official support has stopped. That isn't possible with Sim City 2013, obviously.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I've given the subject quite a lot of thought, although I guess I've not given you any reason to think so. But trust me, I dislike DRM for my own reasons (some of which I've already stated in the quote you used) through a conclusion drawn on my own.

And while this isn't the "last proud man's stand against corporate tyranny" there's little doubt that "corporate tyranny" is afoot, and unless you want your games sold to you a piece at a time, while you jump through ever increasing hoops, I'd hope you'd make a stand.

I'm sorry to hear you've seen people be that stupid, but stop immediately tarring everyone who speaks out against DRM with that same brush.

I've reached an aggravation threshold with the debate many threads ago, so you're getting a relatively short temper from me on the topic. I do apologize for that. I maintain, however, that people storming a thread where the OP is evidently aware of DRM in order to tell him all about the DRM is people just looking for ANY outlet to spew about it. It gets tiring. God forbid I was actually looking for information on the game play, all I'd ever find is people excited to tell me the game contained DRM.

Cool assumption, bro. Or is mind-reading your super power?

You've not so much as asked him or me if we've played the game, but you've just gone ahead and immediately assumed that we haven't.

Have you? What's a fair amount of time to spend with a sandbox/simulation game in order to have a strong opinion on it? 10 minutes? An hour? With a beta version? I guess it's always possible either you or he stayed up until midnight to play your pre-order copy, and played it all night, and are just now drawing punchy, tired conclusions after your massive SimCity binge. But I think we both know that isn't the case.

DRM doesn't work, and it's a drum that people like EA should stop beating.

You know, I'd actually like to see some metrics on DRM. As much as I loathe EA and think they can't take a breath without inciting a riot through sheer force of stupidity, they didn't get to be a huge corporation through an endless succession of poor decisions. I'm willing to bet that someone somewhere has a pie chart demonstrating that DRM does, in fact, "work" to some extent. It'll be an interesting race between the "We've created the strongest DRM evar!" lobby and the "We stripped all the DRM from this game!" lobby to see which generates more profits. Sadly, I'm almost willing to bet it'll be the former. Motherfuckers who pride themselves on pirating the DRM ridden games tend to pirate the DRM free ones as well.

So, it's okay if they piss off the original fanbase by giving them an experience that is in some ways a downgrade?

SimCity 4 is a decade old, and the Cities XL series is a bit of a plonker. You have to wonder at which point a "fan base" is considered to have aged into irrelevance. Regardless, I'm part of the original fan base going back to SimCity 1, and I'm not "pissed off". I think they've made a dubious business decision, but then again I ain't no business major, so what the fuck do I know about it?

World of Warcraft split from the original genre altogether and killed the original series. Many people were pissed off at that. Can you blame them? There hasn't been a Warcraft RTS since. I don't want the same thing to happen to SimCity, even if the paradigm shift isn't quite as dramatic.

If EA gets away with this, any future Sim City games will also have it. It's not a change that can be easily undone, and will render any always-online DRM versions unplayable once their lifecycle is up.

Well they won't be "getting away" with anything. This isn't Scooby Doo and EA is not running a haunted amusement park. This is a product. If the product sells, they'll have a successful product. It might not be a product you want, but that's life. I had to put up with some bullshit third Jagged Alliance game, you guys can tolerate an online SimCity.

 

[MoltenSilver]

If you're on the fence, then don't:
1. I'm sure there's some other very enjoyable game out there made by someone who would love to accommodate your desires vis-a-vis DRM in exchange for that money and time
2. One less sale because of anti-consumer practices is always a good thing

 

[mfeff]

Not sure that will work. Like Diablo 3 part of the run time of the game is "server side", however that has been arranged. I have a quote around here somewhere that details that... I suppose this means that if one defines an "online" game as having a portion of the processing happening offsite then it is an "always-online" game regardless of playing with others or single. Just sayin...

They cracked Diablo 3 eventually. Of course it's only the beta version, but that's better than being tied to the publisher's servers that wont be there in a few years time.

Cool, didn't know that. Reminds me (of many moons ago) running proxy BBS to run MUDS of various kinds. It does strike me as a lot of work considering... though it is not uncommon to still find people that run Ultima servers out in the ether. Perhaps the biggest difference is that the UO serves and certainly BBS games where all up in the air legally. I can't imagine EA or ActiBlizzard sitting idle while proxy servers are distributed free gratis.

The micro trans model conflates the notion almost immediately. I hate that SC went this way... I had high hopes, but really it just isn't the game for me. A little to much "ms paint", not enough "game".

This day n' age though... folk seem to think this stuff is the second coming... Not even sure people like games anymore..?

 

[MammothBlade]

Would you mind describing to me how this is Anti Consumer DRM? I have yet to see how this falls under those lines, but would like to know more?

To add to the other guy's list;

You have to rely on EA's servers, which are unreliable.

You have to queue if your "server is full".

You will have to stop playing if they restart the servers.

If they ever turn the servers off, your game is a brick.

-----

And all that, when pirates will just crack the game so it thinks it's logged on when it isn't. Or perhaps even manage to connect to the EA servers through some trickery.

DRM only punishes the consumer. No one else.

All you've done is describe anything that can happen to any online game.. that's not exactly the same as DRM,

Also DRM does not just punish the consumer, yeah sometimes its Iffie/a burden but a company has the right to protect its property how it seems fit, you as a consumer have the ability to decide if you are still willing to support said property.

Again, Sim City wasn't an online game in the first place, it doesn't have to be an online game. Would be different if you were talking about League of Legends being online only, because that's the point of the game.

Aggressive DRM has never deterred anyone from pirating a game once it's cracked in one or two weeks. It only hurts the paying customer.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

This day n' age though... folk seem to think this stuff is the second coming... Not even sure people like games anymore..?

Oh spare me the back in the day crap. I'm probably older than you, and I liked games then and I like games now. You're right though, people don't seem to like games anymore. They like finding new reasons to hate them.

 

[Weaver]

Would you mind describing to me how this is Anti Consumer DRM? I have yet to see how this falls under those lines, but would like to know more?

To add to the other guy's list;

You have to rely on EA's servers, which are unreliable.

You have to queue if your "server is full".

You will have to stop playing if they restart the servers.

If they ever turn the servers off, your game is a brick.

-----

And all that, when pirates will just crack the game so it thinks it's logged on when it isn't. Or perhaps even manage to connect to the EA servers through some trickery.

DRM only punishes the consumer. No one else.

All you've done is describe anything that can happen to any online game.. that's not exactly the same as DRM,

Also DRM does not just punish the consumer, yeah sometimes its Iffie/a burden but a company has the right to protect its property how it seems fit, you as a consumer have the ability to decide if you are still willing to support said property.

Again, Sim City wasn't an online game in the first place, it doesn't have to be an online game. Would be different if you were talking about League of Legends being online only, because that's the point of the game.

Aggressive DRM has never deterred anyone from pirating a game once it's cracked in one or two weeks. It only hurts the paying customer.

All people are going to say to this is "But the game was DESIGNED to be online! It's a multiplayer game, just like am MMO!"

To all those people, I really doubt they've played the fucking thing. I did the beta in a region with some other people, I basically just forgot they were there and played by myself. If this is a multiplayer game, then so is a bunch of people sitting in a room playing solitaire at their own tables.