Should Skyrim have a Karma system?
- Thread starter Lancallot
- Start date
I?d prefer it to be the same as it was in Oblivion as the fame/infamy system worked quite well, although I would prefer a Dragon Age: Origins approach to karma in wich "evil" actions improve your standing with some people and "good" actions with others. Maybe they will combine the two?
After reading some comments, I think Oblivion did a good enough job and they should keep it like that.
I haven't enjoyed the Karma system in most games I played that used it.
I haven't enjoyed the Karma system in most games I played that used it.
I believe it's having one that's internal and you can't see it in numbers or "Renegade/Paragon" whatever but you'll know if you've been good or bad by how people act around you and say to you...No I don't know what source I've got it from but I swear it's out there, might have been that fan-questions interview thingy that recently popped up.
...so I don't think it should have one that's more of a stat based thing, I like the idea that they have going at the moment that I just described.
...so I don't think it should have one that's more of a stat based thing, I like the idea that they have going at the moment that I just described.
The thing about most karma systems in games is that they fail to get to the point of why people commit evil acts. I don't know anyone who would do something truly evil just because they can. People only commit acts of evil or break laws because it gets them something that they want that either can't be gotten legitimately or because it's quicker/easier than staying within moral boundries. One Good example of a karma system is bioshock. You get more adam if you harvest the little sisters, but you get the evil ending. The only problem with this is that it has little impct in-game, so if you don't care about the story you have no incentive to behave. Oblivon addresses this issue with the detriments of high infamy (not able to use alters, people dislike you etc.) but fell short by making certain quests "evil" quests, punishing players for 100% completion. If you're going to have a proper karma system, then you need to address these issues.
1. You can't have quests that are specifically evil. It makes players disinclined to do all the quests (because they want a completely good character).
2.Making the main quest give "good points" is pointlessly rewarding people for something they would've done anyway.
3. "good points" should be seen as an award, for instance you could have some side quests that offer little reward but the good points, and not every quest needs them. The fighters guild quests from Oblivion didn't need good points because you were already getting paid for them. to make this work, there need to be perks and rewards for high levels of "good points".
4.Don't make karma points just quest based. Have "evil points" for commiting crimes and "good points" for acts of generosity (donations etc.)
5. If you are going to have a moment with a single moral choice, make the evil choice easier to complete than the good choice, otherwise it's just a meaningless "which ending would you like?" button. It needs to represent morality in the real world.
6. There doesn't have to be 1 good choice and 1 evil choice, have several different options.
7. Don't signpost all the different options. In the tutorial quests, have a multi-ended quest that shows that there is more than one ay of doing things, then let them find the different options by themself.
1. You can't have quests that are specifically evil. It makes players disinclined to do all the quests (because they want a completely good character).
2.Making the main quest give "good points" is pointlessly rewarding people for something they would've done anyway.
3. "good points" should be seen as an award, for instance you could have some side quests that offer little reward but the good points, and not every quest needs them. The fighters guild quests from Oblivion didn't need good points because you were already getting paid for them. to make this work, there need to be perks and rewards for high levels of "good points".
4.Don't make karma points just quest based. Have "evil points" for commiting crimes and "good points" for acts of generosity (donations etc.)
5. If you are going to have a moment with a single moral choice, make the evil choice easier to complete than the good choice, otherwise it's just a meaningless "which ending would you like?" button. It needs to represent morality in the real world.
6. There doesn't have to be 1 good choice and 1 evil choice, have several different options.
7. Don't signpost all the different options. In the tutorial quests, have a multi-ended quest that shows that there is more than one ay of doing things, then let them find the different options by themself.
NO!
karma system alsways break my immersion cause it shows something that doesn't exist. if i do something in real life, i don't see a pop-up with the message that i did something bad. no i have my own opinion about it. adn if i is known that i did that adn some people have a reaction to that, i want to see experience that reaction because of what i did, not because i have a bad karma rating.
karma system alsways break my immersion cause it shows something that doesn't exist. if i do something in real life, i don't see a pop-up with the message that i did something bad. no i have my own opinion about it. adn if i is known that i did that adn some people have a reaction to that, i want to see experience that reaction because of what i did, not because i have a bad karma rating.
No because in Fallout 3/ NV it's evil to steal from dead people; Let's say I was just attacked by some legionaries in NV; I manage to kill them and start looting their bodies and encampment. Then I get bad karma for "stealing". What? Stealing from who? They're all corpses!
Yeah I hated that. Maybe if they make certain acts cost points; Stealing from rich people: low karma cost, stealing from poor people: high karma cost. And stealing from dead people you killed for fun: Karma cost, stealing from people you killed in defence: No karma cost. There, much fairer.
But I think I went off target there so... No. no karma system please. I just want to ride dragons and breed an entire dragon army with which I'll conquer the province and found my own kingdom. (please let me do that game)
Yeah I hated that. Maybe if they make certain acts cost points; Stealing from rich people: low karma cost, stealing from poor people: high karma cost. And stealing from dead people you killed for fun: Karma cost, stealing from people you killed in defence: No karma cost. There, much fairer.
But I think I went off target there so... No. no karma system please. I just want to ride dragons and breed an entire dragon army with which I'll conquer the province and found my own kingdom. (please let me do that game)
Not at all. The Elder Scrolls series has always had a great way of having your characters social standing exist on a person-by-person basis. The factions you were a part of and the quests you had done affected people reactions to you appropriately. Defining your character on a strict good and evil basis is far too all encompassing and generic. The Elder Scrolls have had a superior system to that for a long time, there's no need to make it do the same thing a whole bunch of other games do.
If you're going to do a karma system, you should do it with some balls. Not this silly "Oh, you've been a naughty boy! People are gonna start commenting on your bad attitude!" with no real consequence. It should be a lot more like "you've got bad karma. You're now in serious risk of getting randomly struck by lightning!"
The former is just annoying and pointless, but at least the latter actually adds to the depth of gameplay. Murdering, thieving and generally being evil will cause the karmic order of the universe to turn against you, and you start to get progressively more unlucky. Until eventually the world breaks out some poetic justice on your ass. Otherwise what's the point?
The former is just annoying and pointless, but at least the latter actually adds to the depth of gameplay. Murdering, thieving and generally being evil will cause the karmic order of the universe to turn against you, and you start to get progressively more unlucky. Until eventually the world breaks out some poetic justice on your ass. Otherwise what's the point?
To be fair though the karma system in New Vegas barely had an effect on anything, there are only two things that it ever effects and they're both pretty minor. Reputation is much more important.John the Gamer said:
Karma? no. Update Infamy and fame to make them have more impact? sure. For those who think there's no difference, good and bad karma cancel out to become neutral. Fame and infamy don't. The latter system is always better. Though if Bethesda make rewards for having high infamy or fame, I'm going to cry. That system always cuts back on the player's ability to RP.
Yeah I know...ChupathingyX said:
But it didn't really help that I was going around shouting everyone I saw (no really) just to see where it would take me. (and because I could) So none of the factions liked me at all...It was fun though.
I say no. Most games don't need any kind of morality system. The only RPG in recent memory where it fit was KotOR, and only because that's how morality works in that universe.
No fucking way. At least, it shouldn't track your moral progress on a 1 dimensional bar, a la KotOR and Fallout 3. As has been noted by many of the content producers on this site, that kind of arbitrary, binary "morality" complicates gameplay, bores players, and fails to accommodate believable roleplay. There's nothing wrong with asking players moral questions -- as long as they're good ones ("to kill a puppy or not to" is not a moral dilemma) -- but what's the point if you're going to answer for them by flashing a big halo over their head for one option and devil horns for the other. It's asinine.
That being said, I'd really like to see more dynamic interactions with NPCs based on your past choices. E.g., shop keeper won't sell to you if you stole from his friend, or priest offers you a free bed if you protect his flock, etc..
EDIT: Also, everyone keeps talking about the fame and infamy system, but I played hundreds of hours in Oblivion and only ever noticed it when I went to the stat screen. Come to think of it, I can't even remember what it did for me.
That being said, I'd really like to see more dynamic interactions with NPCs based on your past choices. E.g., shop keeper won't sell to you if you stole from his friend, or priest offers you a free bed if you protect his flock, etc..
EDIT: Also, everyone keeps talking about the fame and infamy system, but I played hundreds of hours in Oblivion and only ever noticed it when I went to the stat screen. Come to think of it, I can't even remember what it did for me.
Yeah, sure. While we're at it let's put some quick-time events in and a whole load of escort and fetch quests.
He expressed a disdain for binary moral alignments so you try to point out a flaw in his perception by accusing him of holding a binary moral alignment view on a subject? Or is there some mind-blowingly sly point that's just gone straight over my head?AvauntVanguard said:
OT: No. God no. A thousand noes. Karma system's always represent one writer's perception of good and evil, are often incredibly short sighted to keep things clear cut and slightly less often cartoonish mockeries of reasonable decision making. Reputation systems are just fine as long as they don't just give each faction a polar opposite and make it a choice of one or the other, even if helping faction A in on a certain quest in no way hinders faction B.
It'd be very nice for them to give each and every NPC a personality and distinct opinions of your deeds, exploits and appearance but that won't happen outside of the specialist PC games market, so the best one could really hope for would be for a faction system which also takes into account NPC social status, interests and religious/political opinions in the case of major NPCs.
Of course there should. Karma systems are a great idea. However, they should only have one if they can figure out an actually good way to implement it. Personally, i don't think that skyrim will have one, other than the fame/infamy that they had from oblivion, but if they could figure out a good way to do it I would be all for it.Lancallot said: