Should we have sympathy for flood victims?

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Vegosiux

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Eamar said:
This isn't a case of "what did they expect?" This was unprecedented.
And therein lies the rub, I think. Yes, sometimes planning just doesn't account for problems one could reasonably expect. Like an earthquake in San Francisco or Japan, moderate ice glazing in Slovenia, or flooding around Somerset. But nobody can plan for unprecedented scales of natural disasters.
 

DoPo

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MeChaNiZ3D said:
dyre said:
If you get shot/raped/mugged in a high crime area, no sympathy for you! You should've known that it's dangerous to live there!
Yes, you fucking should have. How do you live in a high crime area and not take precautions? I'm not saying I wouldn't have sympathy for someone in that scenario, but common sense.
I am interested in finding out what those "precautions" are. Just to be clear - you must be talking about something 100% certain to prevent anything, it's affordable, and is is not "do not live in dangerous areas". Because otherwise...how are you so certain no precautions are being taken?
 

Eamar

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Vegosiux said:
Eamar said:
This isn't a case of "what did they expect?" This was unprecedented.
And therein lies the rub, I think. Yes, sometimes planning just doesn't account for problems one could reasonably expect. Like an earthquake in San Francisco or Japan, moderate ice glazing in Slovenia, or flooding around Somerset. But nobody can plan for unprecedented scales of natural disasters.
Exactly. I think a lot of people (including plenty of my friends who live elsewhere in the UK) are hearing about these floods and imagining a few people's basements getting wet and maybe some carpets getting ruined, a scenario for which a lot of the residents would have been more prepared. The actual situation is on a whole different scale, and there's no way anyone could have expected it. There's flooding and then there's flooding.

And yes, the same applies for earthquakes, ice, and any number of other things too.
 

MeChaNiZ3D

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DoPo said:
MeChaNiZ3D said:
I am interested in finding out what those "precautions" are. Just to be clear - you must be talking about something 100% certain to prevent anything, it's affordable, and is is not "do not live in dangerous areas". Because otherwise...how are you so certain no precautions are being taken?
I'm not suggesting that. From the post I quoted I got the feeling that it is not even partially a person's fault for being the victim of a crime in a high crime area regardless of what they do. Of course no precaution is going to work all the time. I'm suggesting self defence weapons, walking in a group and having your phone on you, which won't help if someone has a gun. I realise even prepared people will be victims sometimes, but unprepared people are taking a greater risk.
 

Vegosiux

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Eamar said:
Exactly. I think a lot of people (including plenty of my friends who live elsewhere in the UK) are hearing about these floods and imagining a few people's basements getting wet and maybe some carpets getting ruined, a scenario for which a lot of the residents would have been more prepared. The actual situation is on a whole different scale, and there's no way anyone could have expected it. There's flooding and then there's flooding.

And yes, the same applies for earthquakes, ice, and any number of other things too.
In the recent weeks, we had stuff like this:


Even the oldest residents don't remember anything like that ever happening. The capital, where I live, was less affected since it's urban, the part of the country I'm from also, because a while ago the power companies planned well and put a rather sizable chunk of their power lines underground. But other areas, the rural, remote, foresty parts were really suffering, cut off from power, water, even road access and the damage was immense.

Just...something you simply can't be prepared for.
 

DoPo

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MeChaNiZ3D said:
DoPo said:
MeChaNiZ3D said:
I am interested in finding out what those "precautions" are. Just to be clear - you must be talking about something 100% certain to prevent anything, it's affordable, and is is not "do not live in dangerous areas". Because otherwise...how are you so certain no precautions are being taken?
I'm not suggesting that.
On the contrary, that's exactly what you said. By your very own words, if somebody gets shot/mugged/raped, they should have taken precautions. Thus suggesting that if they had, they wouldn't have been.
 

Vegosiux

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DoPo said:
MeChaNiZ3D said:
DoPo said:
MeChaNiZ3D said:
I am interested in finding out what those "precautions" are. Just to be clear - you must be talking about something 100% certain to prevent anything, it's affordable, and is is not "do not live in dangerous areas". Because otherwise...how are you so certain no precautions are being taken?
I'm not suggesting that.
On the contrary, that's exactly what you said. By your very own words, if somebody gets shot/mugged/raped, they should have taken precautions. Thus suggesting that if they had, they wouldn't have been.
The "precautions" thing is iffy because of foresight/hindsight. "You should have taken precautions" indeed implies "and this wouldn't have happened". But I see no problem with saying "You should take precautions", as in, in the future, to reduce risks.

So, in hindsight it's problematic unless the person did something truly, monumentally dumb so that pointing it out is just common sense (like, "You really shouldn't have tried to pull a front wheelie while riding your bike down a long set of stairs, what the hell did you think would happen?").

In foresight, "That area of town is shady, if you can, you should avoid it at night" isn't "victim-blaming" though, because there's no victim.

But, on topic, I'm with Eamar: It's hard to be prepared for unprecedented things. And most natural disasters that break the news are of an unprecedented scale, that's what makes them "breaking news".
 

DoPo

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Vegosiux said:
DoPo said:
MeChaNiZ3D said:
DoPo said:
MeChaNiZ3D said:
I am interested in finding out what those "precautions" are. Just to be clear - you must be talking about something 100% certain to prevent anything, it's affordable, and is is not "do not live in dangerous areas". Because otherwise...how are you so certain no precautions are being taken?
I'm not suggesting that.
On the contrary, that's exactly what you said. By your very own words, if somebody gets shot/mugged/raped, they should have taken precautions. Thus suggesting that if they had, they wouldn't have been.
The "precautions" thing is iffy because of foresight/hindsight. "You should have taken precautions" indeed implies "and this wouldn't have happened". But I see no problem with saying "You should take precautions", as in, in the future, to reduce risks.

So, in hindsight it's problematic unless the person did something truly, monumentally dumb so that pointing it out is just common sense (like, "You really shouldn't have tried to pull a front wheelie while riding your bike down a long set of stairs, what the hell did you think would happen?").

In foresight, "That area of town is shady, if you can, you should avoid it at night" isn't "victim-blaming" though, because there's no victim.
Yet, that is not what was said. The premise was that if somebody suffers due to living in a bad area then they should have just taken precautions. Again - suggesting that if something bad happens to somebody, it's their fault for not taking enough steps to ensure that absolutely nothing ever would happen to them. So, it's not hindsight/foresight, it is literally saying people are responsible for whatever bad thing happens to them. You got shot? Sorry, son, maybe you should have tried not being shot. Yeah...that's not exactly how it works.
 

Vegosiux

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DoPo said:
The premise was that if somebody suffers due to living in a bad area then they should have just taken precautions.
Yeah, that can't fly because at some moment there the temporal causality got all reversed...

Again - suggesting that if something bad happens to somebody, it's their fault for not taking enough steps to ensure that absolutely nothing ever would happen to them. So, it's not hindsight/foresight, it is literally saying people are responsible for whatever bad thing happens to them. You got shot? Sorry, son, maybe you should have tried not being shot. Yeah...that's not exactly how it works.
Indeed, it's not. We're in agreement, I was just helping myself to a clearer picture of it all.
 

BeeGeenie

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I live near Yellowstone National Park, which is essentially a massive volcano. It hasn't "erupted" in thousands of years, but it is hypothetically possible. So if it did blow up and wipe out all life within several hundred miles, am I unworthy of sympathy because I choose to live here?

Any place can be hit by a natural disaster. If not a flood, then a tornado or earthquake... or giant meteor. There is no 100% safe place to build a house.
 

Erttheking

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Seriously? We're moving on to victim blaming people who are harmed by natural disasters? Can't we just accept that bad things happen to people and not constantly say that they should be held accountable for every less than ideal things that happens in their lives.
 

Yuno Gasai

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Eamar said:
I understand your opinion, and I'm sorry if I upset you, but I think you've misinterpreted me.

I'm not trying to imply it isn't a disaster. I'm not trying to imply anyone is to blame. But those who live in flood risk areas essentially knew what they were signing up for when they moved there.

I'm not saying they don't deserve sympathy, I'm not looking down on them or anything of the sort - simply stating a fact.

The people open to judgement would be most likely to be the councils and government, though admittedly news coverage often suggests they're doing the best they can in terms of both dealing with the disaster and in taking preventative measures to ensure it doesn't happen again.
 

Vegosiux

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Yuno Gasai said:
I'm not trying to imply it isn't a disaster. I'm not trying to imply anyone is to blame. But those who live in flood risk areas essentially knew what they were signing up for when they moved there.
How can you know you're signing up for something unprecedented? It's not something you can know. Disasters that make it to the news, they're exceptional, that's why they make it to the news in the first place. They're not what one could brush off as "Oh, just another day in -someplace-".
 

Yuno Gasai

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Vegosiux said:
How can you know you're signing up for something unprecedented? It's not something you can know. Disasters that make it to the news, they're exceptional, that's why they make it to the news in the first place. They're not what one could brush off as "Oh, just another day in -someplace-".
Flood risk areas are labelled as such for a reason. Natural disasters are natural disasters, I get that, but it makes sense that they would be more likely to occur in areas which are prone to flooding anyway.
 

Vegosiux

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Yuno Gasai said:
Flood risk areas are labelled as such for a reason. Natural disasters are natural disasters, I get that, but it makes sense that they would be more likely to occur in areas which are prone to flooding anyway.
Well, floods are more likely to occur in areas that are prone to flooding. I've asked the question earlier in the thread, actually, just where could people live at all without being exposed to nature's whims? Floods, droughts, blizzards, hurricanes, earthquakes, volcanoes, ice, tides...is there a place safe from all of them, and if not, why "call anyone out" on living where they got hit by one particular type of disaster?
 

Sarge034

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KingsGambit said:
Also worth mentioning, for those living in areas for a long time who have the landscape changed around them, local councils who save money by ceasing river dredging and farmland turned to housing, etc, I do not question their suffering at all since the area was knowingly fine when they chose to live there. My question really concerns those living in high-risk areas. Should the taxpayer support the relief to these high risk areas? Should we feel sympathy for victims struck by a disaster that was easily predicted? What do you all think?

Of course we should have empathy for the victims but not all victims get my sympathy. If the disaster is a very rare occurrence or is particularly worse than normal they get my sympathy. If the disasters are regular or increasing at a predicted rate then no sympathy from me. Now there is also something to say for people who can't afford to move. They get my sympathy simply because they do not posses the means to correct the situation if they wanted to. However, if you knowingly move to an extremely disaster prone location... "You'll get no sympathy from me. You want sympathy, look in the dictionary between shit and syphilis. That's where you'll find my sympathy." - Major Payne (1995). As for the money bit... I don't know. Both giving aid and not providing aid have their pros and cons so at this point I am torn.

As an example I have no sympathy for Louisiana, none. You can't live in a hole next to the ocean and expect that hole to not fill up with water.

 

Yuno Gasai

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Vegosiux said:
Well, floods are more likely to occur in areas that are prone to flooding. I've asked the question earlier in the thread, actually, just where could people live at all without being exposed to nature's whims? Floods, droughts, blizzards, hurricanes, earthquakes, volcanoes, ice, tides...is there a place safe from all of them, and if not, why "call anyone out" on living where they got hit by one particular type of disaster?
I don't see how that's relevant. I'm not saying they're wrong for living there, I'm saying they should have been aware of the risks they were exposing themselves to.

I'm also not "calling anyone out", but if you want to interpret my post that way, that's your prerogative.

Sarge034 said:
However, if you knowingly move to an extremely disaster prone location... "You'll get no sympathy from me. You want sympathy, look in the dictionary between shit and syphilis. That's where you'll find my sympathy." - Major Payne (1995).
I think I love you. You have succinctly summarized the point I was trying to make. So thank you.
 

Vegosiux

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Yuno Gasai said:
Vegosiux said:
Well, floods are more likely to occur in areas that are prone to flooding. I've asked the question earlier in the thread, actually, just where could people live at all without being exposed to nature's whims? Floods, droughts, blizzards, hurricanes, earthquakes, volcanoes, ice, tides...is there a place safe from all of them, and if not, why "call anyone out" on living where they got hit by one particular type of disaster?
I don't see how that's relevant. I'm not saying they're wrong for living there, I'm saying they should have been aware of the risks they were exposing themselves to.
And I'm pretty sure they are aware of the risks of natural inconveniences that are at least a semi-regular occurrence.
 

Therumancer

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I've had very similar thoughts over the years, especially when dealing with second and third world countries, where at one point you might have been able to give them excuse of ignorance, but a lot of time and effort has been put into educating these people. When you still see them overpopulating in famine afflicted areas, rebuilding villages and towns right on top of fault lines and flood prone areas, and similar things, it becomes harder and harder to be sympathetic. Especially when in some cases if you dig you might find that X nation's ruling "government" just bought a bunch of military surplus from a nation like Russia and has been busy polishing it's 2-3 generation old tanks and MIG variants to bother constructing proper safeguards. The way I see things is if people are dying by the tens of thousands in preventable national disasters anyway, the people should be rebelling against their government, especially in nations where they can outnumber government troops hundreds to one, sure a lot of people might die, but eventually if they just keep coming the oppressive militaries will run out of bullets before the rebels run out of bodies (sort of like Zulus fighting British colonial troops, or Muslims overrunning the Foreign Legion). Beyond a certain point it takes a very "special" kind of people to keep letting this status quo exist and dying by the thousands anyway.

I've been sort of the heartless opinion that we should pretty much let Darwinism take it's course, every time the US and other countries come in and provide disaster relief and supplies to the same groups of people, we're perpetuating the cycle and propping up a broken system and ultimately just throwing resources into a toilet, addressing a problem that will never be solved, and of course encouraging the people we're helping to rely on us rather than stand on their own feet and deal with their own problems.

When it comes to the first world and other heavily developed nations, I have a little more sympathy because at least efforts have usually been made. When I look back at something like "Hurricaine Katrina" half the problem was the safeguards we put into place were not sufficient (and it actually surprised everyone), reasonable amounts of effort were however made, and people knew the risks. What's more it can be argued it was a bureaucratic failing when it came to FEMA as much as anything.

Unless of course you happen to intentionally move into an area where these problems are common, knowingly, and knowing there aren't any kinds of safeguards in place. For example when it comes to colonizing the floodplains and such I'd have to look at exactly what kind of countermeasures are being put into force there to justify this. If there aren't any reasonable justifications for it, then as far as I'm concerned people who choose to live there, know the risks, and I'm not going to be as sympathetic as I normally would.

This might sound pretty cruel and heartless, but understand that a lot of it comes from the simple fact that we have lots of problems, poverty, and starving people here in the USA, and 17 Trillion dollars in debt. It's nice to be a White Knight when you can afford it, heroism is a good thing. On the other hand the US can't afford it right now, so we need more "evil" pessimism from people like me, and people coming up with reasons "why not"... at least until we get our debt and other problems under control. After all when it comes to "sympathy from the US" and us running out to the rescue, we're actually borrowing money (since we run at a deficit, the ceiling of which was just raised again) in order to give charity to someone else, and honestly when it's the same people that keep overpopulating in their famine stricken areas, or keep building in areas they should know by now are not safe for habitation, I do not think we should be borrowing money in our name to cover their stupidity. Maybe Darwinism (as mentioned above) will do the job and eventually if enough people die from flooding or other disasters they will either turn on their government to provide safeguards (or establish a new one) or will simply decided to not keep living in places like that.
 

Shymer

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One issue with trying to avoid these exceptional events is the ubiquity of the risk factors. 1/6 of the UK is on a flood plain or below sea level and potentially at risk from flooding. (Compared to 2/3 of The Netherlands which spends 2x the amount of anti-flood measure per capita than the UK). London is built on a flood plain. Most of our towns and villages grew up on positions near rivers and other watercourses. Water is vital to conurbations, industry, agriculture, and historically travel and commerce. We can't always avoid it any more than we can avoid living near trees.

People are only sometimes aware of flood risk when buying property. I bought a house in New Malden that was nowhere near any marked watercourses. Nothing came up in searches or surveys. The previous owners mentioned nothing. It was only when we received notice from the local council that we were on a flood warning register that we realised what might happen. Indeed the nearby road junction would regularly need to be closed because of a massive puddle. It wouldn't have taken much for that to expand sufficiently to threaten people's houses as well as their travel. Given the exceptional rain and wind recently - well, I'm pleased we have since moved.

One of the sad things about discovering that your house is at risk of flood is the immediate drop in property value and ability to sell. Richer folk with more travel options and more freedom to relocate get to choose. The poor, not so much.

I don't like seeing the media crowing over people they have found that have not received any help. Thousands of people are engaged in rescue and support operations and the press rush to find someone critical of the environment agency or who hasn't received a sandbag for some reason.

However current local planning permissions seem liberal in the face of flood risk. There was a pub car park in Buckingham which routinely flooded. I lived there for a number of years and saw several flood events. It was unexceptional. I could not believe it when they sold the car park to a developer and a block of flats was raised on the site. I drove past there today and workmen were back and the river had engulfed the underground(!) car park and was clearly causing some issues.

We are caught in a difficult situation in the UK where population is growing, more people are leading fragmented lives, which means we need a huge stock of lower-cost housing and we are not generously endowed with land and facilities. Rate of building continues to lag demand - pushing property prices higher. I am not surprised that developers are pushing the boundaries of good sense. They are being driven by the government to build low cost property, which means low cost land, which means risk of some kind or another.