Should you feel guilty for eating meat?
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I'm afraid you're going to be stuck eating sand, then. We're not plants. We can't just get by with light, water, and soil nutrients. Everytime we eat, we have to deprive something else of its existence. I remember reading that metabolism is technically a sort of ritual, as defined by Vedic materials. The two essentials in life are digestive force and object to be digested, in this case we can think of it as Agni and Soma, respectively. Every sacrifice depends upon Agni and Soma. Performance of sacrifice is the most important aspect of the Vedic religion. This all extends back to the belief that human life and the universe are essentially the same thing, in different forms, and that the universe depends upon the intimate breakdown of physical material, which most properly is sacrifice, in order to continue to be healthy and to continue to exist. Earliest on, in what we would have to conceive as Proto-Indo-European religion, it seems that this was even a little more severe. All the elements and parts of the human body depend literally upon the universe, and humans ensure the health of the universe by the performance, in particular, of human sacrifice. Bruce Lincoln, professor at University of Chicago, in various different papers, wrote about what I'm describing.s28 said:
I'm not a scholar of the various Hindu religions. But somewhere along the way it seems that these beliefs were mostly replaced with the broadest tenets of Buddhism. Even after the Hindu faiths became dominant again in India, they did not by any means return to orthodox Vedic religion.
Look, when I tuck into a nice slab of steak I'm helping to ensure that humanity doesn't have to worry about halberd wielding bovines going "Moo" while they swarm some poor adventurer who stumbled into the wrong portal. Similarly, when I tuck into a salad I'm helping to ensure these things [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnivorous_plant] never have a chance to evolve to be larger. Or at least mutate from a cabbage... how terrifying would a man-eating cabbage be?
Also there's this [http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2010-07/study-unveils-plant-nervous-system-illuminating-how-plants-remember-and-react].
Also there's this [http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2010-07/study-unveils-plant-nervous-system-illuminating-how-plants-remember-and-react].
If one would eat pigs, lamb and cows meat whilst refusing to consume dog or cats meat one is hypocritical and should take a look into ones values.
People rage at the thought of eating intelligent animals. They seem to have some false equivalence of intelligence with kindness however. In reality, animals tend to become far more cruel when they have some capacity for higher reasoning. And if you knew how cruel these things behave, you would be calling for people to slaughter and eat them.
Case in point: dolphins rape each other all the fucking time. And they don't just rape each other, dolphins will rape almost anything they can get their slimy little fins on. A study was performed in which presumably anatomically correct mannequins were placed within open waters with GPS attached. One was attacked by dolphins, pulled down into what they called a "dolphin rape cave" and raped and ripped to shreds. The last part was particularly galling--ripped utterly to shreds. Some amount of people every year are surrounded and killed in this fashion. Drowned and raped.
Chimpanzees, attacking other chimpanzees but also people, typically attack the face, the hands, and the genitalia. Castration is very common for a chimpanzee subdued in such fashion by attackers.
Now I find eating monkeys a little disturbing, it tends to be something almost like cannibalism, a bad behavior to get into. However, I don't see any reason why dolphins shouldn't. They're an animal just like any other. They would kill you and rape you if they could, and maybe even eat you too--just for good measure. And for people who actually give a shit about the innocent-looking little sexual predators, if you create a market for their meat, you create a reason not to overfish and wipe them out.
My lips are watering just now thinking about it. "Dolphin meat, dolphin meat, nature's greatest treat! Oh what fun it is to eat that damn damn dolphin meat!"
Case in point: dolphins rape each other all the fucking time. And they don't just rape each other, dolphins will rape almost anything they can get their slimy little fins on. A study was performed in which presumably anatomically correct mannequins were placed within open waters with GPS attached. One was attacked by dolphins, pulled down into what they called a "dolphin rape cave" and raped and ripped to shreds. The last part was particularly galling--ripped utterly to shreds. Some amount of people every year are surrounded and killed in this fashion. Drowned and raped.
Chimpanzees, attacking other chimpanzees but also people, typically attack the face, the hands, and the genitalia. Castration is very common for a chimpanzee subdued in such fashion by attackers.
Now I find eating monkeys a little disturbing, it tends to be something almost like cannibalism, a bad behavior to get into. However, I don't see any reason why dolphins shouldn't. They're an animal just like any other. They would kill you and rape you if they could, and maybe even eat you too--just for good measure. And for people who actually give a shit about the innocent-looking little sexual predators, if you create a market for their meat, you create a reason not to overfish and wipe them out.
My lips are watering just now thinking about it. "Dolphin meat, dolphin meat, nature's greatest treat! Oh what fun it is to eat that damn damn dolphin meat!"
Companion animals deserve more consideration, as they are brought in and become part of human households. Eating a family member or the member of another family is obscene.zpaceinvader said:
More to the point, dogs and cats are productive members of society. Cats destroy vermin, reducing the risk of the spread of epidemic disease; dogs have been trained to perform all manner of different tasks impossible or very difficult for humans. Eating them would be a poor way to repay that service.
Nuance is lovely in argument.
Well, the most obvious thing is no, because I don't see the cow getting killed or whatever so it never even enters my mind. But if it did, I still wouldn't feel guilty because it is a herbivore, they practically exist to be eaten by whatever carnivore is around. And even if questionable or unethical practises were used in the killing or transportation (idk), I still wouldn't feel guilty because I didn't know. The very least it would take for me to feel guilty would be if the animal were killed in a slow and barbaric way, for the sole purpose of my consumption, and would not have been killed at all had I not asked for it. Also it is tasty.
I never understood the concept of Human beings, being superior creatures to most others, given out evolutionary gift is the ability to manipulate our surroundings, should limit our practices out of some sense of moral obligation.
the OP grew up in India, where a key tenant of both major religions in the area (Hinduism and Buddhism) is that all life is inter connected. Unus pro omnibus, omnes pro uno if you will. while the argue can be made that we should minimize our impact on the rest of the planet, consuming life is a key mechanism to our survival, whether it is plant or animal. denying the intake of animal protein's in diet is both arbitrary and unnecessary IMHO.
one can never live death free, it is impossible, and those who try to claims such are denying that nature has given us responsibility for our own survival.
the OP grew up in India, where a key tenant of both major religions in the area (Hinduism and Buddhism) is that all life is inter connected. Unus pro omnibus, omnes pro uno if you will. while the argue can be made that we should minimize our impact on the rest of the planet, consuming life is a key mechanism to our survival, whether it is plant or animal. denying the intake of animal protein's in diet is both arbitrary and unnecessary IMHO.
one can never live death free, it is impossible, and those who try to claims such are denying that nature has given us responsibility for our own survival.
I don't think you or anyone can be an accurate judge of what can feel pain and what can't. Plants may not look like they react to damage, like what animals can since we have vocal chords and mouths to project noises, but if you cut off a tree's limbs, it take a really long time for them to grow back, and sometimes, they don't come back at all, the same with certain animals like octopi or like humans. If you set a living plant on ire, you are essentially causing it pain by taking away its ability to live. If you cut down a living plant, you are causing that plant to starve for sunlight, sure it may have stores saved up in its roots but that only lasts for so long. Just because it can't cry out that it's hurt doesn't mean it doesn't feel.PrinceFortinbras said:
Sorry if that sounded all hippie-ish but I'm still going to eat meat and plants because I was born to do so and I find them almost equally appetizing. Saying you won't eat one because it has a face and can feel does not make it alright to think that the other side can't feel just because it lacks animalistic qualities.
And whoever said a while back that "the concept of natural" being an invalid argument - humans, like a lot of animals have evolved to need both meat and plants in our diet to receive the proper nutrients to survive. Not everything we do is a natural occurrence, or at least not by my definition. Natural, to me, means what your species is supposed to do to live - eat, sleep, crap, and reproduce, and survive both the elements and the environment. Because of our intelligence we are more than capable of putting off some of these necessities because of how we've progressed technology and practices to deal with these, treating them as though they barely existed. Someone going off and killing 12 people at a theater is not natural, that's insane. Killing an animal to eat its flesh because you are starving, that is natural. If you could somehow change humans to such a degree that our bodies did not need the nutrients that meat provided then all power to you, but as long as my body needs proteins and calcium, I'll continue to consume animal products.
Humans were not built to be herbivorous because our bodies are completely inefficient at extracting the nutrients, we can only do so from particular plants, not like say a cow can. That and our teeth would rapidly wear down from only eating plant matter due to the abundance of brittle molecules in the plants structure. And we were not meant to be completely carnivorous for the same reasons - meat is tender, so our teeth do not wear down as fast but rather, they grow soft, so we offset this by eating plants which build up our gums.
To everyone that thinks just because humans are smarter that we don't have to kill to eat - just because we are smarter that does not mean that we function physically any different from an animal because we are animals, we are not some magical species that do not need to eat meat to live.
If people stop asking for (factory) meat, farmers will stop supplying it. Simple rule of supply and demand. Also I think that everyone has a moral obligation to know where his food comes from. And the fact of the matter is that if you buy factory farmed meat, almost all of the animals are not just killed in a questionable way, they also live lifes where the word 'quality' just never comes into play. They are overfed in tiny spaces, and depending on the species either live in solitude or amongst thousands of other imprisoned animals that never see the light of day. Many of them receive tons of anti-biotics simply as a precaution, so that now those anti-biotics are less effective at helping humans, because the bacteria developed resistances to them. Factory farming is a horrifying practice and no one should want to be a part of it.MeChaNiZ3D said:
There has to be a brain somewhere for pain to register, so this argument doesn't apply.BNguyen said:
Here's an easy way, ala Lion King
Let's say we become herbivorous - we start consuming plants. To fulfill our bodies' needs we need to consume a lot of plants. Now a lot of animals also eat plants, sometimes much moreso that we could. Now if we take away from their plate to fill our own, we essentially cause them to starve. If we don't tend to animals - thinning their numbers to curve over reproduction and thus have too many mouths to feed, we again are allowing them to kill themselves off. Predators exist to help keep the herbivorous population under control, killing indiscriminately but more times than not taking away females (since females typically outnumber males in the animal world). When they kill, they consume, because they cannot eat plants, at least not in good enough numbers and their bodies cannot break it down to use it. Humans were born to be omnivorous, meaning we need both plants and animals to be healthy, we just tend to go after animals more because of taste, ease of finding, and how it gives our bodies the sense of being full when we consume it. Plants (consumable ones) on the other hand, are not that easy to locate in the wild. You have to go to certain places to find food and even then, the fruits/vegetables/herbs we find do not hold all that we need to remain healthy.
Let's say we become herbivorous - we start consuming plants. To fulfill our bodies' needs we need to consume a lot of plants. Now a lot of animals also eat plants, sometimes much moreso that we could. Now if we take away from their plate to fill our own, we essentially cause them to starve. If we don't tend to animals - thinning their numbers to curve over reproduction and thus have too many mouths to feed, we again are allowing them to kill themselves off. Predators exist to help keep the herbivorous population under control, killing indiscriminately but more times than not taking away females (since females typically outnumber males in the animal world). When they kill, they consume, because they cannot eat plants, at least not in good enough numbers and their bodies cannot break it down to use it. Humans were born to be omnivorous, meaning we need both plants and animals to be healthy, we just tend to go after animals more because of taste, ease of finding, and how it gives our bodies the sense of being full when we consume it. Plants (consumable ones) on the other hand, are not that easy to locate in the wild. You have to go to certain places to find food and even then, the fruits/vegetables/herbs we find do not hold all that we need to remain healthy.
New studies show that plants can see, feel, taste, and smell.s28 said:
http://phys.org/news/2012-07-tel-aviv-university.html
Everything edible feels pain, so should we starve?
Should vegetarians now feel bad for eating a salad?
No, we gotta eat.
Yes I do, and I've dabbled in vegetarianism before. I was really bad at it because I hate vegetarian food and love the taste of meat. So that leaves me conflicted. One day, I probably make a more serious effort.
Further more, I haven't seen a compelling argument out there that makes me feel less guilty. I hear people talking about how we are omnivores, or that we are "supposed" to eat meat. Look, having canines doesn't mean we have to eat meat, or even that we should. A meatless diet is easy to sustain, more economical, and on a larger scale, kinder to the livestock which no longer exists to be slaughtered.
Meat eating in this day and age is a preference for first worlders - a preference we base purely on taste and libido. If you find that deliciousness outweighs the catastrophic waste and suffering that meat production requires, then by all means, there is no need to feel the slightest bit guilty.
Further more, I haven't seen a compelling argument out there that makes me feel less guilty. I hear people talking about how we are omnivores, or that we are "supposed" to eat meat. Look, having canines doesn't mean we have to eat meat, or even that we should. A meatless diet is easy to sustain, more economical, and on a larger scale, kinder to the livestock which no longer exists to be slaughtered.
Meat eating in this day and age is a preference for first worlders - a preference we base purely on taste and libido. If you find that deliciousness outweighs the catastrophic waste and suffering that meat production requires, then by all means, there is no need to feel the slightest bit guilty.
No you shouldn't feel guilty for eating meat if its from a sustainable source. Your more than willing to slaughter the animal yourself, and you eat meat as a part of a healthy balanced diet.
Yes you should feel guilty if
You eat fast food or intensively farmed meat then yes you should feel guilty. If you eat a diet where you are gorging yourself on meat several times a day, then yes you should feel guilty. If you are not prepared to kill the animal then yes you should feel guilty and spineless.
With obesity on the increase from outrageous consumption of meat based products pushed by fast food retailers, not only is it ruining our health, but putting the strain of an extra half a billion imaginary people on the worlds food supply. It is also contributes roughly 18% to annual greenhouse gases.
So people stop trying to make yourself feel better and wise up, people are all ready starving on the planet and the meat industry means that most of agricultural land is taken up by grains grown to feed the animals we want to eat, instead of vegetables which are less of a strain on our environment, and would produce more food to go around.
But hey if you want to stuff your faces with macdonalds and leave nothing but a collapsing world for future generations, and forsake those born in to less fortunate conditions then go ahead.
(im not saying all of our environmental issues stem from the meat industry, though it is a monumental contributor and one people could easily change.)
Yes you should feel guilty if
You eat fast food or intensively farmed meat then yes you should feel guilty. If you eat a diet where you are gorging yourself on meat several times a day, then yes you should feel guilty. If you are not prepared to kill the animal then yes you should feel guilty and spineless.
With obesity on the increase from outrageous consumption of meat based products pushed by fast food retailers, not only is it ruining our health, but putting the strain of an extra half a billion imaginary people on the worlds food supply. It is also contributes roughly 18% to annual greenhouse gases.
So people stop trying to make yourself feel better and wise up, people are all ready starving on the planet and the meat industry means that most of agricultural land is taken up by grains grown to feed the animals we want to eat, instead of vegetables which are less of a strain on our environment, and would produce more food to go around.
But hey if you want to stuff your faces with macdonalds and leave nothing but a collapsing world for future generations, and forsake those born in to less fortunate conditions then go ahead.
(im not saying all of our environmental issues stem from the meat industry, though it is a monumental contributor and one people could easily change.)
You haven't seemed to explain why one should feel bad for eating meat, only that we don't have to eat meat. If your argument is that livestock exists to be slaughtered and represents us destroying life to live, I'd wager that, as plants are living things, vegetarians do the same thing. You take life to continue yours. Certainly, if the animal or plant was treated poorly before being harvested, you should feel bad. I'd wager that if the plant was sprayed with pesticides, you should probably feel bad about supporting the company that allowed that to happen. Of course, humans are getting smarter and soon it wont be necessary to raise animals to be slaughtered. See: In Vitro Meat.maninahat said: