Should you feel guilty for eating meat?

[MHR]

Of course eat them. If they can't live or function anywhere else, make them as useful as possible. The problem is when you produce more of these creatures that aren't capable of surviving on their own and who's only purpose is suffering for luxury products.

I'd argue that farms, the non-factory ones (and even some of them too thanks to regulation changes and increased public scrutiny) aren't places where the animals suffer. Also, as omnivores, meat is a staple of our diets.

I get the feeling we have diametrically opposed outlooks on the subject of ethics relating to the consumption of animal products...so...agree to disagree?

Well, actually, yes I would agree that proper farms as you describe are relatively low on levels of suffering. I believe that if people are responsible enough, they can eat meat *more* ethically, especially if they are willing to kill it themselves. If everyone had to kill or watch their own meat be killed though, people would be eating a lot less meat.

The thing is, most farms are pretty bad, and as a rule of responsibility, blindly paying someone to raise and kill your dinner is not responsible, and knowingly eating meat that you know nothing about is even worse.

I'm not raising my own cows, so I'm not going to be eating any meat. Chances are if I go to Mcdonalds I'm funding the company that probably didn't treat their cows so great, so I don't go to mcdonalds.

So yeah I'll agree to disagree

Edit: Being advanced omnivores only means we are incredibly flexible and powerful, and with power comes responsibility.

 

[Prof.Beany]

Its hard wired in to us to desire to, and to actually perform the act of eating meat, its how we evolved to the point we're at now.

Of course I dont condone the treatment of some of the animals in the mass-production style cage-farms, but I really dont feel bad for eating an animal of any sort, its just nature and we are the ultimate predators, we simply won the race as a species, had we never developed these lovely brains of ours there might be an Earth with giant Bird-men asking the exact same questions themselves.

And when there are much, MUCH worse ways to die in nature (Im looking at you horrible flesh eating viruses and intestinal worms) I think we're really giving them the preferable way to check-out of the building, so to speak.

 

[the December King]

I sometimes wish I didn't eat meat.

I do like animals, and sometimes feel it is wrong to eat them.

I don't buy into the 'omg theyre all tastee' or 'humans we are the awesome so we cans eat anything' sorts of arguments. But it is hard, after having been raised on a more omnivorous diet, to break that tradition. Often I can feel that I'm missing nutrients in my body when I go without meat for extended periods.

So I understand your dilemna.

 

[prophecy2514]

Until a chicken communicates to me that it is capable of reasoning and sapient thought, I will continue to enjoy a succulent chicken parma every thursday night with very very little regret

 

[RevTibe]

Farming plants kills many animals, not to mention the wildlife killed off by creating the farmland in the first place. Unless you're carefully growing it all in your backyard, critters died for your food.

 

[BodomBeachChild]

We're built to eat plants and animals.
More steak please.

 

[Brotha Desmond]

You do need meat. Not only is it the best form of complete protein and has a few nutrients found on in meat. Humans also evolved to eat meat.

 

[nuba km]

Sympathy has nothing to do with what's right or wrong, you have sympathy for someone who goes to the dentist and has to go through a rather painful process for something, but is it wrong for them to go to the dentist no. Is it something the needed to do, no, they could have been completely fine loosing a tooth or having a cavity.

What does have to do with write and wrong has to do with cause and effect, if I shot a man to stop him form blowing up a city I would be a hero as I have stopped someone from ending a much large numbers of lives which have a much greater chance of doing things that allow people to live a better life ensuring a increased likely hood of the survival of our species. If I shot a man who was about to invent the cure to cancer the opposite would be true. If I shot the man who was about to blow up a city filled with zombies that are nearly about to spread to other cities but also contained the only person who could cure the zombie virus, I would be in a moral grey area as there are way to many possible outcomes form this scenario for any sort of accurate guess.

The only possibility that the life of an animal could have any important impact on the quality and on the length of human(or any species) existence are so unlikely and long term that it doesn't really matter.

This is getting really interesting. I like it.

I agree that sympathy does not tell us what is right and wrong. That was not my point, and I can see that I have expressed myself imprecisly, so I am sorry about that.
My point was that sympathy can tell us something about what it is about other people that make them moral subjects. That is, worthy of taking into consideration when we make desisions. The point I was trying to make was that sympathy shows us that the attribute human beings have that make us consider them in this way is their ability to suffer. However I think this conclusion can be reached by using rationality and universalisation of our own preferences in stead. So:

- (1) I don't like being hit in the face. It hurts.
- (2) Other people are alot like me (they have the same nervesystems and most people are not mascochistic 24/7)
- (3) If I punch Paul in the face it would hurt him in the same way.
- (Conclusion) I should not hit Paul in the face.

The more we know about the world around us the easier it is to know what to do and not to do. Now we know that animals probably suffer. Therefore we should not do things to them that we know is bad. So, if you acknowledge your own preferences it's hard to not acknowledge that others (including animals) has preferences as well. I think this is what produces the best effects that you are talking about, and I also think it can be used as a guideline to find which effects are the best. That is not always such an easy desision to make.

(This line of thought takes for granted that people want to do the right thing. I will not get into the debate concerning whether they actually do here. It is far too complex en far too off topic).

can I make a slight edit to your 3 step thought plan:

- (1) I don't like being hit in the face. It hurts.
- (2) Other people are alot like me (they have the same nervesystems and most people are not mascochistic 24/7)
- (3) If I punch Paul in the face it would hurt him in the same way.
- (4) advantages:???
- (5) disadvantages:???
- (conclusion) if advantages outweigh disadvantages hit paul if not don't hit paul.

this is a more pear bone version:

- (1) what the effect would be for soemthign I know
- (2) How similar it is to what I know
- (3) Hence what would be be the effect
- (4) advantages of effect:???
- (5) disadvantages of effect:???
- (conclusion) if advantages outweigh disadvantages to the action if not don't.

for instance randomly punching paul:
advantages: may show dominance which would mean people would tread me better either out of fear or respect.

disadvantages: people would see more as randomly violent and would be less likely to help me if help is needed. This random violence would also make me as a less desirable person and I would be less likely to either have sex for reproduction or pleasure. Paul may fight back and it could result in me feeling pain, his friends may help lowering my chances of winning the fight. This could result in a criminal record making it less likely to get hired and hence earn money for a desirable life.

I am sure there are more for both but I think this is enough.

hence I should not punch paul.

If paul was about to attack you:
advantages: may end the fight quicker resulting in me feeling less pain. If I win the fight I show physical dominance and paul is less likely to try again nor will others who know about this. Me winning the fight or even standing up for my self would make me a more desirable person. Paul mat learn randomly assaulting people isn't beneficial to him and will no longer randomly cause other people pain and will teach his children that randomly assaulting people is wrong if he has children, this makes a less violent society.

disadvantages: if paul beats he may continue attacking me after he won the fight. If I win Paul may return with friends and attack as a group which could result in me dying.

Again I am sure their are more for both.

conclusion: depending on personal strength and knowledge of paul and friends punch paul.

though most people don't think these thoughts actively and will take what's right and wrong without asking why form their parents, this is why people say you shouldn't punch a woman due to the old reasoning that a woman is too weak to hurt a man and hence would show that you are unreasonable but if you actually think about the saying you see the flawed logic in the cause and consequence due to a misunderstanding of the differences of men and woman which resulted in the though of different advantages and disadvantages.

In fact the difference in opinion about the similarity of the subject to one self is what causes a lot of moral debate, I mean the difference in opinion of how human a foetus is is what causes the debate about whether abortion is right or wrong with nearly all those on the pro-choice side saying its not human and those on the pro-life side saying it is humans (though instead of either side arguing about how to classify something as human one argues its ok to do eject a bag of meat while the others argues it is wrong to kill a person).

now lets apply my thought process when it comes to eating a pig
- (1) If I get eaten I am dead and any chance of my future achievements or my descendent achievements due to our advanced brains
- (2) It has a less advanced brain and different biology
- (3) It would die and any chance of a cognitively advanced species that may develop under the right conditions over billions of years
- (4) advantages of effect: People are motivated to work and earn money to buy nicer tasting cuts of meat, this work can support the society that lets people who can create/invent stuff that lets people life nice lives or even the scientist who ends up figuring out a realistic way of growing slabs of meat in a lab.
- (5) disadvantages of effect: a minimal chance of a species that can do science may not develop
- (conclusion) eat meat if it tastes nice

 

[miketehmage]

Do vegetarians feel guilty about raising future health costs for their country by living unhealthy, and do they feel guilty about contributing to the destruction of rainforests at a higher rate than people who stick to the natural human diet?

Wat...

As far as I know, meat eaters are much worse for destroying the rainforest than vegetarians due to massive areas being cut down to make room for cattle ranches. Guy.

OT I do feel kinda guilty but at the moment I'm trying to build muscle so I need protein, also, meat tastes fantastic.

 

[Basement Cat]

Absolutely not.

Humans are omnivores. Few people seem to know it but humans are capable of eating more diverse things than any other animal on the planet. Pigs, no joke, come in second.

Our omnivorous digestive systems belongs on the TOP 5 LIST of Characteristics That Are Responsible For Our Species Surviving and Existing to This Day.

And there are nutritional reasons for eating meat. In college I had several friends who were vegetarians. They knew what to eat, etc. But one girl, April, stayed sick until her doctor ORDERED her to start eating meat. She started by nibbling on bacon and in no time she was healthy as a horse.

The point is that while you CAN survive without eating animal flesh it's not only easier to get what you need nutritionally by eating meat but in some people's cases it's NECESSARY for their health. People aren't all alike, and so forth...

Being hypoglycemic I fall into this category, myself.

Vegetarianism and other selective eating traditions (Don't eat pork if you're a muslim, for example) typically developed because of some reason having to do with certain foods being viewed as being potentially harmful. For example, for many centuries Europeans refused to eat tomatoes, even when they were starving to death, because the color red was associated with poison.

Doubts and a sense of guilt, however, weren't luxuries our cave man ancestors could indulge in. Some could respond to this by saying "True, but back then they started begetting children as soon as girls menstruated. Do you think that means we should allow 6 year old girls who start early to have babies, themselves?"

Of course not, though there are places and peoples who say and do otherwise to this day, but such a legitimate counter-point helps put the 'Cave Man' argument into modern perspective.

Where dietary taboos are concerned, when actual medical reasons don't rear their head, in the end it's up an individual's personal conscience.


EDIT: I just realized that I started by saying "Absolutely not." then ended by saying it was up to everyone's conscience. Consider the first statement my knee jerk personal feeling and the closing statement my response to how others should feel.

 

[Reynaerdinjo]

I have no qualms about eating organic meat, unfortunately this isn't a really sustainable solution if people want to keep eating as much meat as they do now. Eating meat is becoming something of a status symbol in China and demand is ever increasing. Since I deem eating factory farmed meat non-ethical, I currently do not eat any meat at all.

Anyone interested in the subject should read "Eating Animals" by Jonathan Safran Foer. It's an honest, personal approach to the problem and it doesn't try to dismiss the value of eating meat (tradition, taste, etc.) At the same time it's highly critical of factory farmed meat and rightly so in my opinion. I highly recommend reading it.

 

[antipirate]

I don't need to eat pork to live a healthy life. Contrary to what the meat industry says, you don't need meat to live. We do need protein, but we don't need nearly as much as we eat and there are sources of protein other than meat. I'm a medical student, and I have more than one science degree - I've done my nutrition, I know how to read journal papers, I know how to do proper research and the evidence is clear: We don't need to eat meat. In fact, we should eat a hell of a lot less meat. A little bit of meat every now and then isn't harmful for us, but the amount of red meat we consume in the West is VERY unhealthy. If you are going to eat meat, the evidence is clear - less is better, and white meat or fish is preferable.
.

Apparently you don't know how to read journal papers very critically though, you seem to have bought into the grain industry's agenda wholesale. Mind you the traditional meat industry isn't much better but I suspect the optimal human diet does include properly raised livestock or hunted animals. Have you ever heard of the Maasai tribe? Do you know the amount of fat in a cut of beef that isn't saturated.Do you know of a study that looks at the health effects of replacing x grams of actual animal fat (not hypothetical pure saturated fat) with x grams carbs?

Just for perspective do you know how far we are proving that vegetables are good for preventing chronic disease? If there is anything to know about nutrition it's the fact that we know so little. The idea of selecting foods to prevent chronic disease is quite new in general up until like 40 years ago nutrition was all about preventing nutrient deficiencies.

Regards,
Jordan

 

[DAAANtheMAAAN]

I was brought up as a vegetarian in India and then in my late twenties when i came to Europe i started to eat meat. Also in Europe it is easier to be a non-vegetarian as the vegetarian choices can be pretty boring. And I must admit that I like the taste of meat and seafood, etc.

But lately I have been questioning if I should feel guilty for eating meat, seafood (anything that has a life). Do you guys ever wonder about things like: balance of the eco system, food chain, humans are at the top of the food chain so its justified, etc? Do humans really need meat to survive or we just eat it for pleasure? I eat it for its taste and I know some meat/seafood are supposed to be really good for our health. Also primitive man/Neanderthals used to hunt for food...but i guess they used to hunt anything for survival. The modern man does not need to kill/hunt for survival as there is abundance of vegetables and fruits available to eat.

Anyway to cut the long story short, I'm very confused if eating meat/seafood is justified and that we shouldn't feel guilty for killing living things for our consumption. What do you guys think?

Your open and honest opinions on this subject are welcomed.

I wouldn't feel guilty about it. Eating meat is part of the human diet. We're omnivores. Our front and canine teeth are designed to cut and tear meat apart, similar to a predator, while our back teeth are flat and suited to chewing and grinding, like an herbivore. If we were not meant to eat meat then our mouths wouldn't be designed for it.

At the end of the day, humans are and always have been animals. We are animals with the only distinction being smarter than the others. Other animals eat meat and do so without remorse. While I can understand protesting the cruelty of slaughterhouses or the thought of the slaughter in general, don't feel bad about eating meat itself. The meat on your plate was that of an animal that gave it's life solely for that purpose. The greatest disservice I see is letting it go to waste.

 

[Angie7F]

I follow what my body requests me.
Sometimes I crave meat, sometimes I focus on veges and veges alone.
Sometimes the smell of fish makes me gag, other times i am obessed with eating fish.

i think as omnivores, its ok for us to eat meat.

i wish that producing met was more natural and ethical but since that ould result in more expensive meat, i guess i have to suck it up.

Religiously and culturally i can understand that some cultures and religions condemn it.
If you want to live by their rules, I think it is ok too.

From the OP though, i feel it is more about personal belief and adapting to your shift of perspective that is the problem, not the actual eating of meat...

 

[Zaik]

I don't really see it.

I mean, even if I wanted to look at it from the perspective of a livestock animal, most of them seem to be so unintelligent that they likely couldn't tell the difference between a life in captivity and eventually being killed for meat, and a life not in captivity and eventually being killed for meat by another carnivorous animal.

 

[spartan231490]

Don't feel guilty at all. You're just not attaching the proper qualifiers to "life". It's "animal life" and I do not feel bad at all for ending it so mine can continue. Such is the nature of all things that live. Even plants live by murder. Many plants generate herbicides in their roots to kill off plants that are close enough to take their water or sunlight. Or look at trees, they spread wide in order to kill other trees that grow in their shade so their roots don't get crowded.
Predators eat other animals to survive, as do omnivores. Even herbivores murder the plants they eat, and will compete with others for food when it's scarce, causing their competition to starve to death.

Further, it's possible to live without meat, but only very carefully. Red meat has numerous necessary nutrients that you either cannot find in plants, or cannot find in large quantities. Omega 3 essential oils are only found in red meat and fish, and you need those for brain function. All 8 essential amino acids are found in high quantities in red meat, even the best plant source(soy) only has like 4 of them. You can get the rest from other plants, but only certain kinds. To live without meat for a long time you need to supplement the Omega 3 that you can't get from plants, and you also need to closely monitor your diet to make sure you get enough essential amino acids, enough protein, enough iron, enough calcium(cuz if it's wrong to kill animals for food, it's definitely wrong to torture them for milk), the list goes on and on.

Also, meat is delicious, and that's really all the reason I need. I feel no quilt over eating meat. The people that do confuse the heck out of me.

 

[Zuljeet]

Enjoy your steak.

I certainly do.
Like I said, I wont pretend I don't sometimes feel conflicted but fuck it meat is tasty.

I try not to eat anything too cute though.
I won't eat rabbit (Ok, I did have rabbit pie as a kid but I didn't know what it was so that doesn't count) and I won't eat deer.
But thats just cause I'm a wussy bleeding heart type of girl.

If cute things are off the table (aargh, the pun, it burns), what kind of meat do you eat?

Or have you just never seen a calf, lamb or hatchling?

Lambs, calves and hatchlings are cute.
Sheep, cows and chickens are fugly.
I don't mind so much if they grow up to be ugly.

Ugly, eh?

I guess it's different for people who don't spend time around animals.

My family live in the country. They used to keep a couple of milking cows (well, they still do, I just don't live there any more). I wouldn't regard them as ugly animals.

One of them liked to chew on people's arms. Not hard enough to hurt. No idea why, she just did.

She was a cantankerous old beast. If she ran out of feed before we were done milking her, she'd promptly kick the bucket over.

This one time we killed, slaughter and ate her calf. A few days later the cow found the spot where where we'd bled the carcass. I guess she recognised the smell or something. There's a particular kind of short, relatively high-pitched "moo" that mother cows do to call their calfs back to them. That cow stood in that one spot and did that one particular moo continuously and almost without pause for several days and nights straight. When we tried to move her she got aggressive She only moved when she was nearly fainting from thirst.

Ugly.

...

Enjoy your steak.

1. Thank you, I *will* enjoy the steak.
2. The cow who was chewing on arms was trying to be affectionate. Watch other cows and how they interact w/ each other.
2. How the fuck could you or any other farmer kill/bleed/butcher a calf in a spot where the fucking mother would find any *hint* of the calf and NOT expect any problems from the mother? Domestic cows aren't the sharpest tool in the shed but they know what blood/pain/death is. Please don't give me any shit about "We don't have any room" If you have space for cattle, you have room to butcher them away from the others.
/rantoff

 

[lSHaDoW-FoXl]

I was brought up as a vegetarian in India and then in my late twenties when i came to Europe i started to eat meat. Also in Europe it is easier to be a non-vegetarian as the vegetarian choices can be pretty boring. And I must admit that I like the taste of meat and seafood, etc.

But lately I have been questioning if I should feel guilty for eating meat, seafood (anything that has a life). Do you guys ever wonder about things like: balance of the eco system, food chain, humans are at the top of the food chain so its justified, etc? Do humans really need meat to survive or we just eat it for pleasure? I eat it for its taste and I know some meat/seafood are supposed to be really good for our health. Also primitive man/Neanderthals used to hunt for food...but i guess they used to hunt anything for survival. The modern man does not need to kill/hunt for survival as there is abundance of vegetables and fruits available to eat.

Anyway to cut the long story short, I'm very confused if eating meat/seafood is justified and that we shouldn't feel guilty for killing living things for our consumption. What do you guys think?

Your open and honest opinions on this subject are welcomed.

Rabid animal rights activist here! I have nothing against people who eat meat, but since we're on the topic of whether they should feel guilty about it, I have quite a few things to say. Firstly, anyone that tells you that 'humans need to eat meat' is lying. Back before we had spears, I'm pretty sure we didn't go around punching animals for food. No, we ate vegetables and fruit because that was all we could eat. Can't out run a rabbit, can't out smart a Fox, and we sure as hell can't fight a freakin' Lion. If we ate anything in terms of meat, it would probably be the scraps of anything we could scavenge.

People eat meat for pleasure. And this is even more apparent by the fact that we have people eating meat at places that aren't even healthy. Trying to argue that 'we eat meat because we need it to survive' when we've got places like KFC and Mcdonalds is very faulty reasoning. I'm quite sure the only reason people try to argue 'because we have to' is simply so we can have a justification for slaughtering thousands of animals outside of 'Well, I was fucking hungry, okay?'

So should we feel guilty? Well, I'm not too sure about that. I would say we need to be more educated on what goes on in these facilities and at least look out for these animals not to suffer terrible deaths. Feeling sorry about an animal and eating it isn't going to bring it back or reverse any of the suffering it had to go through. If anything, we just need to look to lessen their suffering and hopefully look for alternative means of nourishment.
I truly believe that there will come a time when eating meat is seen as an abhorrent act. Because in the future, we may have better, cheaper tasting food. So again, should we feel guilty about eating meat? And is there any justification for it?

Outside of it being delicious, I suppose I will propose that the other reason is because it's just a relevant part of our society. We eat meat, because it's just what's works for a lot of us best at the time. It will become an anachronism, just like our dead rotten bodies will eventually be. I'm a vegetarian, and I'm not against eating meat with exception to Veal. The only thing I really complain about is the cruelty involved. But well, that's what you get when you leave any form of ethics in the hands of a corporation.

Now on to fishing. Well, I think we should cut that shit out. I hate fish - and to be completely honest I'd value a cow or a chicken over one - but I think we need to calm the fuck down and actually get around to conserving some of the damn things. Over fishing is a legitimate problem, and we need to take some measures in preventing it. So in regards to this issue, it's not so much of 'feeling guilty' about eating fish but more of actually taking measures against doing so. And Canadians, simply blaming seals and beating them isn't going to fix our problems. I'd think our massive sea trawlers are just a bit more of a problem to the fish than a few seals that can eat up to their own weight.

Now finally, lets talk about you. Do whatever you feel is best for you. Just don't be a douche about it and try never to undermine the suffering that went into your dinner by hurting your self from eating.

 

[Thistlehart]

As it is, not just the meat is used when an animal is slaughtered. A lot of other things are made from the carcass of the animal.

Spoiler: People like to say that Native Americans were better hunters/people because they used all of the animal. Well then...

EDIT: Should you feel guilty when you use any of these items? I thought, not.

 

[ShaqLevick]

Holy shit dude you know corn has life too, and so does every plant. So I guess your choices are starve to death or start rationalizing why we have a food chain... because if you're really going to start debating the sanctity of life you can't nitpick how life ranks, if you do that you're probably not as "evolved" as you think you are.

Seriously though, I mean guilt is subjective, not as much a real thing as something you feel. The choice to feel guilty is all yours. Say you were in a plane crash in a mountain range do you feel guilty if you had to eat human flesh after a week just to survive? Well go ahead and die of your guilt for all I care. Me on the other hand, I'm going to rationalize the situation to survive! Should I feel guilty about the slaughter of cattle? Fuck the cattle because if we aren't going to eat them why the hell should they be allowed to live?