"Shut up because I'm a soldier!"
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I actually had the "fortune" of running into a Canadian (sociopathic) soldier who thought he was a hero for killing 78 people (and no, it wasn't anything else, as he made it very clear that he was doing it just for killing's sake as the conversation went on. This was also the least of the inane bullshit he spewed, a lot of which comprised of surprisingly racist remarks, one towards a black father playing with him while he revealed just how horrible a dad he was while telling him the "right" way to parent, plenty of bragging about his shitty life fully of multiple bastard children and a deadend job, and critiquing the US for things Canada did as well), so this doesn't seem to just be limited to American military.
Okay, I don't know where you got your information from, but at least in terms of bases (can't speak for deployments in war-zones, myself), ALL of that is completely wrong.DoctorFrankenStein said:
They do room inspections in the barracks occasionally, but they only check to see if you're keeping your room clean. They can't open any drawers or lockers or anything unless they have solid reason to believe you actually have something illegal in there like drugs or guns or child porn or something.
I can leave the base whenever I want. I just got back from the Jack in the Box out in town an hour ago. I can also request leave so long as I have enough leave earned. Two of my buddies just took a week off to go home and visit family.
I also wore shorts and a t-shirt there. I have all my civilian clothes on me and can wear them whenever I'm off-duty. I can even go to the office after hours in my civies if I want to. It's not really different from any other business with a dress code.
There is a designated smoking area literally 100 ft down the hall from my room. My smoking friends take regular smoke breaks throughout the day. My drinking friends go to bars often on weekends and even on weekdays when they don't have special duty. And while porn is discouraged, they don't crucify you for having it unless it's of the illegal variety.
You can disagree with your superiors as much as you want. Though I suppose you are half-right in that you can't be disrespectful to them and you have to obey LAWFUL orders. You can't be ordered to do anything illegal, that's for sure. Though you can't participate in any political events OPENLY because the military is an apolitical organization.
Again, you are actively encouraged to voice your opinions and concerns as long as you are respectful about it. The military wouldn't be half as effective as it is if the higher ups never listened to those lower on the chain.
Most often if a situation is too dangerous or risky, you would actually be ordered NOT to go in, like that Marine who was awarded the Medal of Honor a couple weeks ago. And besides, everyone who signs up for service knows the risks.
Again, I'm sure things are a bit tighter in combat zones (though still not as tight as you seem to think). And I don't know who told you all that stuff, but you were heavily misinformed. Maybe some of that was true in the Cold War days, but today that sort of thinking is archaic, ineffective, and out of practice.
My partner went through boot camp in Fort Jackson in South Carolina. He was trained as a fueler and worked in that position for a couple of months before washing himself out because he wasn't getting proper care or consideration for an injury he sustained while on base.Jack the Potato said:
I don't know where you are, but those are the rules there as of late 2009.
Looks like you either got lucky, or are utterly full of baloney.
That's Basic Training. Which, as I'll point out, is incredibly different than the regular Army once you get out of AIT.DoctorFrankenStein said:
Basic is meant as a build/condition phase, turning a raw recruit into a Soldier over a period of months. Yes, to many that training may seem harsh, and there are quite a few restrictions placed on the new arrivals. But they do that because, in essence, you're taking raw potential and shaping it into an effective fighter, just as AIT takes that freshly-trained Private and makes him into a Soldier for his specific MOS.
Even then, if a Drill ignores when his Soldier reports that someone is hurt, that another DI said that a path was unsafe, that his weapon was malfunctioning, etc., that Drill would be in a world of hurt from the others.
To put it into simple terms: Unfeeling and unthinking robots are NOT what the military needs. They need people who can think quickly, while under pressure and in a fair manner, because those are necessary qualities for NCOs. And, as me and other service members can attest, we desperately need NCOs in the ranks.
As for the Injury he sustained, I would like to ask (If it is not too personal) what level he took the issue to before he washed himself out. If it was just to the Drill Instructors, then he should have taken it higher (One thing commanders HATE is having a Soldier come to them with a problem the DI ignores: it also forces change in the way things are done). If it was the Commander/1SG, then go higher. I know, at least in my time back in 2003, that numbers were posted for the Hospital and the Inspector General in common areas. If it was something so bad that the entire command chain was ignoring it, then he should have reported it to IG. If he didn't follow the proper channels, then that's on him.
Also, Patriotism isn't 'Orwellian' by nature, and often becomes that way because it's wielders wish it to be that way. Otherwise, becoming a police officer (as you describe) or a fireman or a teacher is just as Orwellian, because those are patriotic duties. Same as becoming a politician or a GS Employee. It also doesn't mean that it's unstoppable; even using their rules, you can stop it by making people aware and doing something about it. Lead by example, and others will follow.
EDIT: To get the thread back on track, it doesn't matter how many combat tours they served. If the facts show that they're wrong, then they're wrong. If you want to know what life is like downrange, or about the difficulties of providing security for large, underdeveloped areas or construction projects in hostile areas, then talk to a Soldier of a PRT member. To be honest, it's the Soldiers that think they know it all that usually know the least. "Barracks Lawyers" is a term we've used for them, though 'idiot' works fine. A couple other examples (Feel free to use if they start it again):
"Get your head out of your 4th point of contact."
"That's about as stupid as chemlight batteries."
"Filling out the I-D-10-T form again?"
"Dumber than a tent peg."
"Dumb as a grounding rod."
"Squad leader put you on point a lot, huh?"
I'm not amused at 'how wrong' everyone is. I'm amused that people would state two things in the same post:Fagotto said:
1 - How a person, because of their profession, is not more likely to be correct on an unrelated topic because of said profession. (Which I agree with, unless you study or work in a field, bringing up your line of work is irrelevant)
2 - Then proceed to say things about the organization of the military, the typical type of people that serve as members, etc. Like their opinion is in anyway informed.
Granted that isn't exactly a complete 180ing on anyone's part, no one came out and said 'The military is like this, I'm an accountant for a dairy company' (That I read, anyway).
I just find it amusing that folks would admit that unless something is your trade/focus of study you probably don't know that much about it, then proceed to pop off whatever sentiment is currently hip/edgy in regards to an organization that they barely know anything about.
Yes, it is true, there are people joining the forces due to difficulty finding meaningful/well-paying employment elsewhere. But that doesn't mean they're poorly educated. Many trades require post-secondary training, not just officers, but non-commissioned members as well.
The military does not want 'dummies'. Would any organization willfully hire someone who was going to consume resources ($$$) if their aptitude as an asset wasn't up to snuff? A military uses enough money without paying for, or even the salaries of, unintelligent people.
Not to say that folk who wash out are unintelligent, far from it. The military needs its members to be the right fit, personality-wise, to that end if a member is having difficulty in their trade or personal issues with it, the forces will do their damnedest to find a job that would better fit the individual. Sometimes, a person is just better suited to another type of employment entirely.
Cute. The modern military is governed by rules of engagement. Admittedly, mistakes happen, innocent people get killed. That is the exception, not the rule.Fagotto said:
**Still, murderous thugs members of the military are, they're not as bad as people who get/perform abortions, at least the people soldiers kill had a chance to survive. The babies killed by those butchers had none.**
**The last bit wasn't my true opinion, I am pro-choice. Everyone has the right to decide what happens with their own body. Your statement needed a twin, looked lonely. Ignorance should travel with a dance partner.
I've had enough of this. Fagotto, your points:
Most or all don't need education: You need at least a GED and over 60% on a general aptitude test to be considered for the Infantry. Other MOS categories, including admin, engineers, public/civil affairs and intelligence, require that you score at least a 110 on the GT (about 80% or higher on the ASVAB, plus additional testing) along with a high-school diploma, and that is at the low end. College graduates are sought after and given better incentives to join, and you need a degree to become an officer. Yes, Most of them do need higher education. Don't lump in the military as stupid or ill-educated just because we're a fighting force.
Even after that, promotion is based off your civilian education as well as your military aptitude. Most NCOs have at least a Bachelor's degree, and I've yet to meet a Lt. Col. Or higher that didn't have a Master's degree.
Up to snuff: Funny that you mention engineers, because going through the engineer course for the Army is both mentally and physically grueling, and I've had several friends in the branch. Also, ?up to snuff? is more than just shooting people; go ask a pilot or an EOD tech.
Once again, you're putting all of the military in the ?dumb gunner? mentality, which really doesn't do it justice. Most of the jobs are either secondary combat roles (engineer, scout, pilot, etc.) or admin/support roles.
Thug: Do you know what we do to people who break into homes and kill them, without evidence or cooperation with the local authorities? It's called a Court Martial, and it usually follows with a life sentence, stripping the soldier of rank and benefits and a dishonorable discharge.
Yes, we have had people do horrendous things to civilians. Yes, innocent people have died in the line of fire. But we don't just shoot and forget. We still pay to the families that lost their son or daughter, and we?ve put dangerous and unstable men away for life for intentional crimes. Besides, the protection of civilians and the care taken to diminish collateral damage and lives lost are a central part of the COIN strategy.
Worthwhile: You mean like helping the Basra oil fields rebuild their refineries, bringing billions in revenue to the country? Or rebuilding checkpoints on the Iraq/Iran border? Or helping train the Police and Army to ensure that once we leave, we don't have to come back? Or installing water wells, or generators and power plants to help improve the quality of life?
I've been to all of those projects, and more. I've seen us doing more than shooting people, and I've seen entire communities spring to life after we?ve installed running water and stable electricity.
The saddest part about all of this, Fagotto? All of this is easily researched and documented. The power stations being built. The Provincial Reconstruction Teams restoring railways and bridges. Training the Army and Police for the withdraw of forces. All of it is readily available. The fact that you continue to feed the notions you have is either out of confirmation bias or willful ignorance.
Most or all don't need education: You need at least a GED and over 60% on a general aptitude test to be considered for the Infantry. Other MOS categories, including admin, engineers, public/civil affairs and intelligence, require that you score at least a 110 on the GT (about 80% or higher on the ASVAB, plus additional testing) along with a high-school diploma, and that is at the low end. College graduates are sought after and given better incentives to join, and you need a degree to become an officer. Yes, Most of them do need higher education. Don't lump in the military as stupid or ill-educated just because we're a fighting force.
Even after that, promotion is based off your civilian education as well as your military aptitude. Most NCOs have at least a Bachelor's degree, and I've yet to meet a Lt. Col. Or higher that didn't have a Master's degree.
Up to snuff: Funny that you mention engineers, because going through the engineer course for the Army is both mentally and physically grueling, and I've had several friends in the branch. Also, ?up to snuff? is more than just shooting people; go ask a pilot or an EOD tech.
Once again, you're putting all of the military in the ?dumb gunner? mentality, which really doesn't do it justice. Most of the jobs are either secondary combat roles (engineer, scout, pilot, etc.) or admin/support roles.
Thug: Do you know what we do to people who break into homes and kill them, without evidence or cooperation with the local authorities? It's called a Court Martial, and it usually follows with a life sentence, stripping the soldier of rank and benefits and a dishonorable discharge.
Yes, we have had people do horrendous things to civilians. Yes, innocent people have died in the line of fire. But we don't just shoot and forget. We still pay to the families that lost their son or daughter, and we?ve put dangerous and unstable men away for life for intentional crimes. Besides, the protection of civilians and the care taken to diminish collateral damage and lives lost are a central part of the COIN strategy.
Worthwhile: You mean like helping the Basra oil fields rebuild their refineries, bringing billions in revenue to the country? Or rebuilding checkpoints on the Iraq/Iran border? Or helping train the Police and Army to ensure that once we leave, we don't have to come back? Or installing water wells, or generators and power plants to help improve the quality of life?
I've been to all of those projects, and more. I've seen us doing more than shooting people, and I've seen entire communities spring to life after we?ve installed running water and stable electricity.
The saddest part about all of this, Fagotto? All of this is easily researched and documented. The power stations being built. The Provincial Reconstruction Teams restoring railways and bridges. Training the Army and Police for the withdraw of forces. All of it is readily available. The fact that you continue to feed the notions you have is either out of confirmation bias or willful ignorance.
DoctorFrankenStein said:
I once worked in a cinema - they checked peoples lockers for drugs and stolen money. Whats your point?
In the Army I last had my room inspected in 2008, and this was just the boss ensuring that we weren't living like pigs. Which seems more than reasonable when you have a group of young men living in close confines.
Army accommodation is a lot like living as a Student at Uni - except a damned sight more hygienic because you have to clean up after yourself, not a bad thing in my experience.
The same can be said of any job. And the restrictions on "leaving the base" are very, very limited, in fact, probably less limited than in some jobs - that same cinema didn't like people leaving the complex to go for lunch. In the Army I regularly go to the Sandwich shop across town for lunch.
I used to work in an office - I had to wear a suit every day, which I had to purchase.
The Army issues me with comfy clothing free of charge.
So, again, not an issue really.
Thats simply a lie... or are you refering to the Jordanian army or something?
If anything I have more freedom to Smoke and Drink in the British Army - and in no other job have I ever been on a night out on Thursday, for the boss to declare a late start the following day because he's just as drunk as the rest of us.
Again, you are grossly misinformed - a Thinking Soldier is a much more useful asset in the modern asymmetric battlefield. Thus modern soldiers are encouraged to think a hell of a lot about what they're doing and why.
First - of COURSE you're allowed to preserve your own life, thats what the rifle is for.
Second - plenty of other jobs require people to put themselves in danger (firemen, police, social workers, etc. etc.).
Third - Yes, there is an element of danger in the job, thats actually part of the appeal, believe it or not. Same reason people go Skateboarding, Snowboarding, or any other number of extreme sports - you may not agree with their thinking, but you damned well shouldn't criticise it either.
Those that don't invariably provide those joining with post-secondary qualifications.
Is this a bad thing?
Is it wrong that the Military takes people who didn't do well at school (possibly due to poor teaching and a curriculum aimed at "book-smarts" over "practical-smarts") and then gives them the practical qualifications required to make a life for themselves?
This is something I'm having trouble dealing with in this thread - people are attacking the military for taking in the flotsam, ignoring the fact that the MAJORITY aren't flotsam, and those that ARE flotsam are being turned into a productive and useful member of society...
WHY IS THIS BAD?
Finally:
This. oh so much of this.
I've been to Afghanistan, and 99% of what we do isn't fighting. We're there to support the rebuilding process - we build schools, hospitals, dig wells and clear unexploded munitions from the soviet era.
In exchange, the Taliban lay munitions in the ground which are just as much a threat to Local Nationals as us, burn down those schools for teaching un-islamic ideals (like that it's ok for girls to go to school), and utilise those Hospitals as bomb-making facilities...
And yet, there are still ignorant fools who think we're the bad guys in all this.
If you're talking about the BRITISH army then it's apples and oranges anyway. I'm talking about the AMERICAN military system.Stu35 said:
And as far as being the bad guys, that's not the case. War is a waste of energy and resources that could be better spent back home. Afghanistan is where empires go to die.
They don't want us there and they'll suck away our blood and treasure in revenge for every day we persist in staying.
And everything I said was quoted verbatim from my partner who lived that life for almost two years. Try and tell him 'it's a lie.'
Whatever.
Poignant, but:DoctorFrankenStein said:
True, but I still believe that a nation of people who think it's socially acceptable to rape young boys, oppress women and stamp out anything other than their own version of a religion, should be dealt with.
Now, I'm in no way foolish enough to believe that the governments of the NATO nations give even a remote fuck about that, and that has nothing to do with us being in Afghanistan - but I've been there, I'm going there again next year, and whilst the Government may not care about changing things, I do, so I'm happy to help them in their efforts to obtain a friendly government in Central Asia in exchange for the opportunity to teach a few Pashtuns about the joys of not having sex with young boys, or the joys of Rugby League instead of throwing rocks at stray dogs.
Almost Two Years?
Fascinating how people who were in the military, who despise the military and espouse how poorly they were treated, never seem to make it to the 4 year point. Almost like they were rare examples of how shit life CAN be.
Don't get me wrong, I worked with the U.S Marines in Afghan - compared to us they get treated like utter shit in some areas (but incredibly well in others, it's tit-for-tat really). Especially in the pay and time off department (also, they're US Marines, so they're all about that stereotypical gung-ho "OO-RAH" bullshit you see in films). And yes, there were a lot of angry, disenfranchised people in it (Something about spending a year on tour with only 2 weeks R&R, wheras we do 6 months, with 2 weeks R&R).
However... I'll stick to my original point: You're wrong. You posted as if life in the military was like life in an Islamic Prison, which it isn't - even in the U.S. Military. It may well feel that way to some, and they will invariably put up with it for "almost two years" before they leave. Thats fine, thats their decision, but it's wrong to apply their experiences to EVERYONE in the military.
It would also be wrong to apply my "it's all sunshine and roses" experience to EVERYONE in the military, because I've had a pretty awesome time - I've played the system a bit, and I've avoided some of the shittier jobs, those shit jobs I have done I'm able to put to the back of my mind because they're counter balanced.
Truth is though, that I've done Civvy jobs, and with the exception of getting to go home every single night and not having to move house every 2 years, I actually think the treatment people receive are just as bad - if not worse - Because whilst I have job security (pretty much no matter what I do), a lot of my Civvy friends could lose their jobs at any time, which makes them very scared to stand up to unreasonable or dickish bosses.