Skullgirls Dev Dismisses Cries of Sexism

Iron Mal

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This biggest reason I always tend to disagree with many complaints of sexism/racism/xenophobia/homophobia in games is because most of the time the arguement they make is that something 'could' be offensive to someone.

A game depicting women with large breasts fighting each other in revealing outfits could potentially be offensive to women (I'm sure there are some out there who would feel objectified by such a thing) but by the same token there are probably just as many who either find it funny, like it or couldn't care less.

It's just silly fanservice and is only meant as such (I don't think we should take a game where someone's head falls off routinely with no ill effects too seriously), I think we should reserve the rallying cries of sexism until we're dealing with a case of legitimate hatred or malice towards women.


Zachary Amaranth said:
Hey, a woman did it so it's totally not sexism!
To be fair, it isn't sexism and the fact that a woman did it does partially play a part in that.

It does help cement the fact that not all women are overzealous, militant feminists who's immediate reaction to a video-game character being portrayed as sexy or attractive is to start frothing at the mouth and pointing giant foam hands with 'sexism' on them at the devs.

In fcat, I'm fairly certain that most women either honestly don't care or would prefer having an attractive or pretty character to a bland looking or ugly one.
 

ReinWeisserRitter

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ExileNZ said:
Honestly, I don't remember anyone making this big a fuss over Rumble Roses, or even Dead or Alive for that matter.

DOA just gets laughed at, like chainmail bikinis. Far as I can tell, Rumble Roses just gets ignored. It's like DOA but without even pretending not to pander to base urges (my favourite part of DOA was Ryu, for example, and the tie-ins with Ninja Gaiden).

And seriously? And anime-styled game with scantily-clad chicks and panty shots?
Have people not heard of, say, the entire anime industry?
You're missing the fact that no one, much less the developers, ever has claimed that Dead or Alive or Rumble Roses aren't sexist. Because that'd be batshit insane. That's one of the only major differences here. This developer is doing many of the same things those games do, but is claiming it's not sexist because a woman drew it.

The other major difference is that this isn't a Japanese game. Japan is a sexist nation, there's no doubt about it, but we can't control that. This game is made on our own turf, however, and thus is subject to greater scrutiny, because we claim to be more aware of such things.

Iron Mal said:
To be fair, it isn't sexism and the fact that a woman did it does partially play a part in that.
It being done by a woman doesn't lessen it at all. As I've said elsewhere, women are just as capable of exploiting their image as men; it's just usually done differently.

I think what a lot of you guys don't understand is what sexism actually means; it doesn't have to be offensive to be sexist. Skullgirls doesn't offend me, but that doesn't mean it isn't sexist. A woman wearing a low cut top is sexist; whether it's offensive and who it offends is merely a supplementary issue that depends on the person interpreting it.
 

Jennacide

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ReinWeisserRitter said:
You're missing the fact that no one, much less the developers, ever has claimed that Dead or Alive or Rumble Roses aren't sexist. Because that'd be batshit insane. That's one of the only major differences here. This developer is doing many of the same things those games do, but is claiming it's not sexist because a woman drew it.
And you're missing the fact that nearly nobody but feminazis freak out of DOA games. Skullgirls is nothing like those games, which are pure TNA shows. It's more akin to the examples we keep giving, Street Figher and Guilty Gear/BlazBlue.
The other major difference is that this isn't a Japanese game. Japan is a sexist nation, there's no doubt about it, but we can't control that. This game is made on our own turf, however, and thus is subject to greater scrutiny, because we claim to be more aware of such things.
This is the most bullshit excuse I've ever seen. If you geniunely believe Skullgirls is somehow sexist (I think you're crazy if you do), then you need to ALSO take open offense to DOA and yell at those morons to fix it.
 

Kopikatsu

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ReinWeisserRitter said:
ExileNZ said:
Honestly, I don't remember anyone making this big a fuss over Rumble Roses, or even Dead or Alive for that matter.

DOA just gets laughed at, like chainmail bikinis. Far as I can tell, Rumble Roses just gets ignored. It's like DOA but without even pretending not to pander to base urges (my favourite part of DOA was Ryu, for example, and the tie-ins with Ninja Gaiden).

And seriously? And anime-styled game with scantily-clad chicks and panty shots?
Have people not heard of, say, the entire anime industry?
You're missing the fact that no one, much less the developers, ever has claimed that Dead or Alive or Rumble Roses aren't sexist. Because that'd be batshit insane. That's one of the only major differences here. This developer is doing many of the same things those games do, but is claiming it's not sexist because a woman drew it.

The other major difference is that this isn't a Japanese game. Japan is a sexist nation, there's no doubt about it, but we can't control that. This game is made on our own turf, however, and thus is subject to greater scrutiny, because we claim to be more aware of such things.

Iron Mal said:
To be fair, it isn't sexism and the fact that a woman did it does partially play a part in that.
It being done by a woman doesn't lessen it at all. As I've said elsewhere, women are just as capable of exploiting their image as men; it's just usually done differently.

I think what a lot of you guys don't understand is what sexism actually means; it doesn't have to be offensive to be sexist. Skullgirls doesn't offend me, but that doesn't mean it isn't sexist. A woman wearing a low cut top is sexist; whether it's offensive and who it offends is merely a supplementary issue that depends on the person interpreting it.
That line right there tells me that you don't actually know what that word means.

I'll use Cooking Mama as an example. Cooking Mama shows women cooking. It is not sexist, because there are women that actually do cook. Now, if it said 'This is a woman's job', then that's sexist.

A bunch of girls/women wearing skimpy outfits isn't sexist by virtue of them wearing skimpy outfits. It has to be derogatory towards the female gender as a whole in order to be sexist.
 

ReinWeisserRitter

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Kopikatsu said:
I'll use Cooking Mama as an example. Cooking Mama shows women cooking. It is not sexist, because women actually do cook. Now, if it said 'This is a woman's job', then that's sexist.

A bunch of girls/women wearing skimpy outfits isn't sexist by virtue of them wearing skimpy outfits.
It's exploitation of sexuality via expected and exclusively gender-specific means, so yeah, it is sexism. And no, Cooking Mama by itself isn't offensive on the grounds that it's a woman that cooks, but if the character was portrayed a certain way, it would be sexist by proxy; the guy that headbutts meat and punches his friends while cooking is sexist, but it's also hilariously so. I have no idea and little interest in how the character in Cooking Mama is portrayed, however, so I am not fit to comment on that.

And for the record, I check the definitions of everything that's a grey area, especially if I'm going to accuse other people of not knowing what it means. Dictionaries aren't exactly witchcraft.

Jennacide said:
ReinWeisserRitter said:
You're missing the fact that no one, much less the developers, ever has claimed that Dead or Alive or Rumble Roses aren't sexist. Because that'd be batshit insane. That's one of the only major differences here. This developer is doing many of the same things those games do, but is claiming it's not sexist because a woman drew it.
And you're missing the fact that nearly nobody but feminazis freak out of DOA games. Skullgirls is nothing like those games, which are pure TNA shows. It's more akin to the examples we keep giving, Street Figher and Guilty Gear/BlazBlue.
Dead or Alive, the fighting game series, is perfectly serviceable and enjoyable when regarded solely as a fighting game. It's not a "pure TNA show"; that's just one of the draws. If it's not your thing, that's fine, but don't throw it out as a game just because it has gratuitously bouncing knockers.

Jennacide said:
This is the most bullshit excuse I've ever seen. If you geniunely believe Skullgirls is somehow sexist (I think you're crazy if you do), then you need to ALSO take open offense to DOA and yell at those morons to fix it.
Some of you guys really need to read the entire post before you start flipping the fuck out.

I just said, in the very freaking post you quoted, by the way, that I don't find Skullgirls offensive, so why the hell would I find Dead or Alive offensive on the traits it shares with it? I've also said that I don't take issue with it being sexist in and of itself, but that I find the developer claiming it's not, apparently solely because a woman is in charge of character design, to be ridiculous.

Please read what the other guy is saying before you do the blind white knight routine. It'd save us both some headaches.
 

Jennacide

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ReinWeisserRitter said:
Some of you guys really need to read the entire post before you start flipping the fuck out.

I just said, in the very freaking post you quoted, by the way, that I don't find Skullgirls offensive, so why the hell would I find Dead or Alive offensive on the traits it shares with it? I've also said that I don't take issue with it being sexist in and of itself, but that I find the developer claiming it's not, apparently solely because a woman is in charge of character design, to be ridiculous.

Please read what the other guy is saying before you do the blind white knight routine. It'd save us both some headaches.
Hi conclusion jumping, how are you today? I stated that the reason is bullshit, and anyone that views Skullgirls as offensive can't have it both ways, rationalizing "oh that's just Japan." I didn't mean specifically YOU, but the crapload of people already trying to make this claim in the thread.

Also, how is it being a 'blind white knight' when I'm lashing out at the same people?

As for DoA, I will continue to throw it out of hand, because it's an awful fighting game. It only has two levels, button mash, and super pro. Ask any tournament player and they will reflect this view. It does have too tournament play, and no middle ground for players of moderate skill such as myself. So fuck it, I'll stick with SSF4.
 

ReinWeisserRitter

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Jennacide said:
Hi conclusion jumping, how are you today? I stated that the reason is bullshit, and anyone that views Skullgirls as offensive can't have it both ways, rationalizing "oh that's just Japan." I didn't mean specifically YOU, but the crapload of people already trying to make this claim in the thread.

Also, how is it being a 'blind white knight' when I'm lashing out at the same people?
Don't call a person's view into question, then address a different group of people without preamble in following sentence, then; it's misleading. What you actually said, by the way, is "If you geniunely believe Skullgirls is somehow sexist, then you need to ALSO take open offense to DOA" (your exact words), thereby saying that finding something sexist is also saying it offends you, which, as I said before, is not the case here.

In other words, I think you're full of it by saying you weren't referring to me, and are back-peddling now that you've been caught doing it to save face (which you don't need to do, by the way; just be more aware of what you're replying to), but even if you're not, you need to format your thoughts better. I didn't jump to any conclusions you didn't clearly outline.

Jennacide said:
As for DoA, I will continue to throw it out of hand, because it's an awful fighting game. It only has two levels, button mash, and super pro. Ask any tournament player and they will reflect this view. It does have too tournament play, and no middle ground for players of moderate skill such as myself. So fuck it, I'll stick with SSF4.
I shouldn't need to tell you this, but "I'm not good enough at it" isn't the best grounds for calling a game bad. Again, if you don't like it, fine, but that doesn't make it less a legitimate game; I think Street Fighter IV is garbage, but I'm not so daft as to say you should think so, too.
 

ExileNZ

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ReinWeisserRitter said:
ExileNZ said:
Honestly, I don't remember anyone making this big a fuss over Rumble Roses, or even Dead or Alive for that matter.

DOA just gets laughed at, like chainmail bikinis. Far as I can tell, Rumble Roses just gets ignored. It's like DOA but without even pretending not to pander to base urges (my favourite part of DOA was Ryu, for example, and the tie-ins with Ninja Gaiden).

And seriously? And anime-styled game with scantily-clad chicks and panty shots?
Have people not heard of, say, the entire anime industry?
You're missing the fact that no one, much less the developers, ever has claimed that Dead or Alive or Rumble Roses aren't sexist. Because that'd be batshit insane. That's one of the only major differences here. This developer is doing many of the same things those games do, but is claiming it's not sexist because a woman drew it.

The other major difference is that this isn't a Japanese game. Japan is a sexist nation, there's no doubt about it, but we can't control that. This game is made on our own turf, however, and thus is subject to greater scrutiny, because we claim to be more aware of such things.

Iron Mal said:
To be fair, it isn't sexism and the fact that a woman did it does partially play a part in that.
It being done by a woman doesn't lessen it at all. As I've said elsewhere, women are just as capable of exploiting their image as men; it's just usually done differently.

I think what a lot of you guys don't understand is what sexism actually means; it doesn't have to be offensive to be sexist. Skullgirls doesn't offend me, but that doesn't mean it isn't sexist. A woman wearing a low cut top is sexist; whether it's offensive and who it offends is merely a supplementary issue that depends on the person interpreting it.
I have no issue with either of your points addressed to me, I'm even on board that a woman drawing it doesn't make it any less sexist (see the recent article on how women's mags do "Men's" articles), but I do find your definition of 'sexist' to be far too broad. A woman wearing a low-cut top is sexist? Really? I seem to recall in the '90s that was called "Girl Power", as was "taking back" the word '****'. It's not so much what is done as how it's done.

I don't have much of an opinion regarding the game as sexist or not - I haven't seen the trailer and I'm unlikely to. That said, the main reason they're stepping up and saying "Our game's not sexist" seems to be more in response to it being used as a straw-man than anything else.
 

Frankster

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G-Force said:
Frankster said:
*goes to check game with his own eyes, comes back*
Heck even the concept isn't that sexist to me. So its an all female fighting game, but one that doesn't really emphasize sexuality unless you really want to make a big deal out of it.
Could have been an all lads fighting game (a few of the characters would likely be half naked to show off their manly muscles and pecs so would beat this game on the nakedness factor) and would be same thing in my eyes.
We do have games like that. Wrestling games, UFC games and boxing titles are more than willing to fill out the "buff half-dressed men" quota for us.
I think i could make the case for wrestling games being the most sexist games that exist *puts on asshat specs*, so whats this, a bunch of games which pits practically naked burly men of all shapes and sizes against each other in a ring trying to best each other with some very sexual looking moves?

Obviously the only target of these games are pathetic desperate single women who could never get it on with a real guy and must express their sick desires to see man on man action in a fictional medium (lest they do it in real life.... I have found a direct correlation between the rise in female led violence and crime and the rise of videogames as you'll find that ever since videogames got made cases of violent crimes perpetrated by females has gone up, coincidence? I think not.)

UFC games are even worst in that they add blood to the mix, directly appealing to any guroesque fantasies the woman might have playing it. What a bunch of sickos, the lot of them.
 

Technicka

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ExileNZ said:
I have no issue with either of your points addressed to me, I'm even on board that a woman drawing it doesn't make it any less sexist (see the recent article on how women's mags do "Men's" articles), but I do find your definition of 'sexist' to be far too broad. A woman wearing a low-cut top is sexist? Really? I seem to recall in the '90s that was called "Girl Power", as was "taking back" the word '****'. It's not so much what is done as how it's done.
It's more a matter of why, in all honesty.

The problem with discussing sexism (as well as other -isms) is that they aren't a matter of isolated events; nor are they always overt instances of insulting behavior. Sexism is the continued reinforcing of how women should be perceived by society, as a whole. Sure, it's not to the level of the DOA series, or characters like Mai...but that doesn't somehow magically absolve it of not playing into the cliche of scantily clad girls beating one another up for the benefit of guys.
 

Weaver

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But dead or alive is totally okay.

Really, what does it matter? You could have a game where there are ripped dudes, slender male pirates, and super sexy business men, zombie cat guys; whatever wild fantasy women have and I would identify it as a game not targeted at me, not a game that's sexist or derogatory to men.

It's fantasy, it's always been fantasy; what's the harm?
 
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Mike Kayatta said:
Skullgirls Dev Dismisses Cries of Sexism

Reverge Labs claims that scantly clad anime chicks with huge breasts aren't offensive because it was a woman who animated them.

For those of you unfamiliar, Skullgirls is an upcoming 2D fighter in the vein of Marvel Versus Capcom that features an all-girl roster of anime-styled women. Yes, they fight each other, yes, they have breasts, and yes, sometimes when they contort, you can see their panties.
If they're going for the irony market these should at least have been subversive enough to call the game ClicheFighter. Irony without integrity is a saturated scene.

Since trailers surfaced earlier this year, some people have started complaining about the game relying on gimmick and sexual exploitation. Peter Bartholow, lead developer, disagrees, citing the complaints as "misplaced and shallow chivalry."
Developers: they might not be able to communicate why they disapprove of something in a coherent fashion, but when enough of them are objecting to the one thing it is enough reason to flag it for you to scrutinise it and improve on it. Dale Carnegie wrote this nearly a century ago, so its even older than your game's panty flashing gimmick. And its still selling. You like proven business models right?

"Our characters are strong, powerful women who happen to be attractive," Bartholow said in an interview with Eurogamer. "We don't have anyone like [Street Fighter's] Cammy, who wraps her legs around your leg then beats you senseless with her Kegel muscles - or whatever is going on in that Cammy Super. There was a very conscious decision not to do things like that. None of the characters use their sexuality in any aggressive way. It's just a thing they happen to be."
Translation: "Our unique selling point is girl on girl violence. But stylised, since we're not sickos," Peter said to the blogger who'd no idea how to grill an interviewee with harder questions on issues like sex, violence and female self image. "Now observe as I take a swipe at one of the few well known and established strong powerful female characters from a well respected series that we hope to seize market share off. She is, gentlemen, a skank and a bitchwhore."

Still, that hasn't stopped some people from getting offended. Earlier this year at Gamescon in Germany, one fan stopped Bartholow just to tell him how sexist he thought the game was. According to Bartholow, however, the complaint stopped as soon as he explained that a woman had done the animation.

"I'm like, did you know our lead animator is a woman?" he retold. "Then, he's like, that's amazing. It's like I gave him the excuse to think it was okay all of a sudden, or to admit he liked it, which really amused me and seemed emblematic of the entire situation around that."
Translation: "One singular fan who was offended because he disliked how men sexualise women for profit. This resulted in the opportunity to confuse him, without disproving his argument, by proving that women are capable of creating the same shitty situation for other women. While he was still recovering from the realisation that he was more sexist than he though he was (for assuming only a man could be qualified for an art direction job in the videogames industry) he became all meek and embarassed about jumping down my throat. It was awesome, I'm saying this in all my soft news interviews where no one looks like they've read up on debate or gender studies. I just have to make sure that this one piece of criticism is the focus of the majority of all interviews on ClicheFighter. I mean Skullgirls."

Bartholow puts a lot of stock in the fact that a woman, not a man, was the one who handled the animations. "She intentionally lavishes attention on the breasts herself because she thinks it's cool," he explained.
"Without naming the art director, or bringing her out to actually give meaningful commentary in a news piece on an industry in desperate need of a balanced perspective on gender, I shall now proceed to, as our PR approved mouthpiece, give a PR approved overview of her edgy, edgy, sexy work's results, without the slightest possibility that I'm shoving my big hard words into her dainty female mouth. Course if I was doing that, it'd be totally consensual. Cause we're not sickos."

"All the people who seem bothered by it are guys. It's a weird chivalry intent thing that's sort of misplaced and maybe shallow, even, because they see breasts and panty flashes and they go, that's sexist, but I've yet to meet a woman who has complained about it. They're over-thinking it."
"All the people who seem bothered by it are guys, but as I've already said earlier we don't really look in too closely to the criticism leveled at our games. Also women should be seen and not heard, which is why we haven't brought out or even named our art director for her work on this project. Remember when a woman does it, it can't be sexist, like d'uh, y'know?"

The game is set to be released on Xbox Live and PlayStation Network in early 2012. Reverge labs has stated that the fighter will launch with eight characters, and will add more in free DLC updates as the community grows. It's also confirmed that male characters will be added eventually.
"Now, while we're nothing like that Street Fighter 2 game, with that skank Cammy (McBitchwhore), we will be releasing a game offering equal the same experience as Street Fighter 2, with the same incremental approach to an ensemble cast as Street Fighter 2 did, starting in 1991. Remember, this game isn't Street Fighter 2. Its ClicheFight- I mean its Skullgirls. This is a new game. You've never seen anything like it (so long as you're under 20 years old)."

Personally, I think some of Bartholow's arguments are weak, but the better question is, does he need to be making them in the first place? If you're going to design a game starring nothing but cute girls in revealing outfits, you need to be prepared to own it, not justify it. Skullgirls isn't the first game to feature big-breasted women, and certainly won't be the last. What do you think Escapists? Based on what you see in the trailer, do you agree that the game looks like nothing more than offensive fan service?
I think this game is borrowing heavily on a 20 year old game. I think it has a few gimmicks slapped on and Peter Bartholow has realised that if he doesn't start courting controversy fast no one will notice when its released.

I also suspect that the female art director is working on this game to pay the bills and just drew what marketing said. I think that she made it plain clear that she didn't want her name dropped.

I also suspect that the working conditions in the games industry that Extra Credits wrote about absolutely apply to Revenge Labs, and our unnamed art director finds her career between a rock and a hard place on this one.

For what its worth I respect her (if she even exists?) for following her dreams. If I'm skeptical to the point of cynical its because that lead developer just comes across as a smooth talking sleaze talking up a product in this piece to me.
 

z121231211

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Apparently when the Japanese do pantyshots and huge-bouncing breasts, we do the mature adult thing and ignore them, but when an American game does the same (which is nowhere near the level of other fighting games) we all throw a shit-fit and cry sexism.

In all reality, no matter how sexist you perceive this game to be it will not have any impact on anything. Maybe a few threads on here and other forums for a day or two and it's own dedicated forum somewhere on the internet AT MOST. It's not going to set Women's rights back any amount of decades nor reinforce any perceptions of them for any amount of time longer.
 

Char-Nobyl

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Lieju said:
And I specifically said that from that trailer I can't say much about their characters. But I'm kinda sceptical about how well written it will be in general, just given the usual level of video-game writing.
Possible, but isn't that the case with virtually any game/movie? Trailers rarely give us profound insight into characters regardless of the genre. If the guy says that his characters will be...erm...well-characterized, it's hearsay, and even if there's no evidence to the contrary, he still needs to prove the statement when the game comes out.

Lieju said:
My comment about not finding bimbos attractive was just about attractiveness in general.
...that raises other issues about "bimbos" having a certain kind of physical appearance, but frankly, that's a can of worms best left unopened.

Lieju said:
You can find people objecting to anything, it doesn't mean it's news.
I'm not sure how that's meant to apply. If he brought it up during an interview, it stood out enough to him to warrant mention.

Lieju said:
This article could have been titled and worded better, the way it's now just makes it sound like there is some controversy about this game, which I haven't even heard before this.
It's like it's a response to something.
To be frank, that just means that The Escapist uses a time-honored tradition of journalism: inflating a problem to garner more public interest. It's hardly a point against them, but it's something to bear in mind when reading about virtually any sort of controversy in print/online journalism. Just because it's a professional publication doesn't mean it isn't ultimately written by human beings, with all their wonderful biases and idiosyncrasies.

Lieju said:
Conspiracy? Hardly. But they have got free publicity with this either way.
Why do you think those people give interviews in the first place?
To get the word out about their game, and if they say things that people will talk about, even better.
Yes, interviews are generally given to promote the interviewee's project, but that hardly means that they're going to invent things to talk about to make it seem more interesting. That's either lying, or being Peter Molyneux, and neither of those things tend to turn out well in the long run.

Lieju said:
Really? Is this game worth caring either way? Sounds like the dev is trying to get free publicity. And if you don't have any real controversy, make one by denying everything.
The Escapist has a rather narrow set of interests that it covers, and the world of gaming isn't quite as fast-paced as the world of finances or international politics. And even then, you have to accept that sometimes there are slow news days. You take what you can get on those.

Lieju said:
Either way, this strikes me as a manufactured controversy where there is none.
Well, such is journalism and PR.
*facepalm* Again? Really? Look, maybe we're working off two different definitions here, but as far as I can tell, "manufactured controversy" is just another way to say "lying for attention," aka "conspiracy, however small-scale and unimportant."
 

Trivea

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lord.jeff said:
My solution after this game release a fighting game with noting but a bunch of sexy men.
I'd play it.

OT: I do think it's a really weak argument that females in fighting games aren't portrayed in a sexist manner because they're "just female", when the ONLY reason I can think of for fighting in a MINISKIRT is pointless fanservice. Trust me. We hate wearing miniskirts and high heels enough when we're not expected to perform insane feats of acrobatics.

I wouldn't think that it was sexism if you had a girl in a miniskirt and a tubetop and hooker heels, as well as a girl in sweatpants, a tanktop, and combat boots, but you don't see that - you just see the first one. And, I'm sorry, but that doesn't scream "strong, independent woman" to me.

And a woman animated them? Isn't that the same as "I'm not racist because some of my best friends are 'non-white race here'"?
 

Lieju

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Char-Nobyl said:
Lieju said:
And I specifically said that from that trailer I can't say much about their characters. But I'm kinda sceptical about how well written it will be in general, just given the usual level of video-game writing.
Possible, but isn't that the case with virtually any game/movie? Trailers rarely give us profound insight into characters regardless of the genre. If the guy says that his characters will be...erm...well-characterized, it's hearsay, and even if there's no evidence to the contrary, he still needs to prove the statement when the game comes out.
So... We basically agree?

Char-Nobyl said:
Lieju said:
My comment about not finding bimbos attractive was just about attractiveness in general.
...that raises other issues about "bimbos" having a certain kind of physical appearance, but frankly, that's a can of worms best left unopened.
For me 'bimbo' means one-dimensional female character who is dumb and only serves as fanservice. Skinny, big breasted women (maybe 'traditionally attractive' is a good way to describe that) can also be well-developed and intelligent and interesting characters. As I have been saying; the characters in this game can be all that, it's just the usual level of writing in video-games (as well as my pessimism) that makes me doubtful.

My point was that complexity and good characterisation as well as personality and intelligence are a part of why I find a fictional character attractive.

Char-Nobyl said:
Lieju said:
You can find people objecting to anything, it doesn't mean it's news.
I'm not sure how that's meant to apply. If he brought it up during an interview, it stood out enough to him to warrant mention.
It doesn't mean it's newsworthy. And wasn't that guy in this thread saying it was just something he threw out there on the last minute and the person writing the article ran with it, because it makes good news. And at any rate, not everything everyone does should be worth reporting on.

Char-Nobyl said:
Lieju said:
This article could have been titled and worded better, the way it's now just makes it sound like there is some controversy about this game, which I haven't even heard before this.
It's like it's a response to something.
To be frank, that just means that The Escapist uses a time-honored tradition of journalism: inflating a problem to garner more public interest.
Which is exactly what I meant with 'manufactured controversy'. Report on something that's not a problem, giving it media coverage, then angry people respond to it and you can report on them, as well as people who feel their views were misrepresented.
And people can take advantage of this to get publicity, that's why organizations like PETA do all the crazy crap they do.
I never said the dev was lying, or even exaggerating, but just mentioning something like that maybe knowing people would talk about it.
I definitely never accused anyone of conspiracy, even if the dev was lying to the press, that wouldn't be a conspiracy. Conspiracy kinda means there is a group of people banding together to break the law or rules.
 

TheDooD

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Trivea said:
lord.jeff said:
My solution after this game release a fighting game with noting but a bunch of sexy men.
I'd play it.

OT: I do think it's a really weak argument that females in fighting games aren't portrayed in a sexist manner because they're "just female", when the ONLY reason I can think of for fighting in a MINISKIRT is pointless fanservice. Trust me. We hate wearing miniskirts and high heels enough when we're not expected to perform insane feats of acrobatics.

I wouldn't think that it was sexism if you had a girl in a miniskirt and a tubetop and hooker heels, as well as a girl in sweatpants, a tanktop, and combat boots, but you don't see that - you just see the first one. And, I'm sorry, but that doesn't scream "strong, independent woman" to me.

And a woman animated them? Isn't that the same as "I'm not racist because some of my best friends are 'non-white race here'"?
I could say that before Ms Fortune was chopped up it was very possible she was wearing pants, boots and most likely a tanktop yet because of her new abilities wearing such would hold her back. Parasoul is princess so of course she's gonna flaunt it because she got it. Plus they had WAY more character concepts then what they could put in the game in a decent amount of time. You may get character design you want, yet don't get mad when it tuned to work with the game's current style.
 

ExileNZ

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Technicka said:
ExileNZ said:
I have no issue with either of your points addressed to me, I'm even on board that a woman drawing it doesn't make it any less sexist (see the recent article on how women's mags do "Men's" articles), but I do find your definition of 'sexist' to be far too broad. A woman wearing a low-cut top is sexist? Really? I seem to recall in the '90s that was called "Girl Power", as was "taking back" the word '****'. It's not so much what is done as how it's done.
It's more a matter of why, in all honesty.

The problem with discussing sexism (as well as other -isms) is that they aren't a matter of isolated events; nor are they always overt instances of insulting behavior. Sexism is the continued reinforcing of how women should be perceived by society, as a whole. Sure, it's not to the level of the DOA series, or characters like Mai...but that doesn't somehow magically absolve it of not playing into the cliche of scantily clad girls beating one another up for the benefit of guys.
For the most part I agree with you, although for me the how and the why are pretty closely linked.

Also, let's not confuse sexy with sexist, re: scantily-clad females. That said, I gather SG has no shortage of pantyshots, which for me are rather firmly in the latter category.
 

Char-Nobyl

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Lieju said:
So... We basically agree?
Dunno. I was sorta trying to play Devil's advocate, but if we're falling on the same side of the debate, sure. Let's go with that.

Lieju said:
For me 'bimbo' means one-dimensional female character who is dumb and only serves as fanservice. Skinny, big breasted women (maybe 'traditionally attractive' is a good way to describe that) can also be well-developed and intelligent and interesting characters. As I have been saying; the characters in this game can be all that, it's just the usual level of writing in video-games (as well as my pessimism) that makes me doubtful.
But that's the problem: that's the Guantanamo Bay approach. I've met people who 'look' like the sort of person who would be the idiot-fanservice girl in a work of fiction, but life doesn't work that way. Working under the "shallow until proven otherwise" mindset is only going to cause problems.

Lieju said:
It doesn't mean it's newsworthy. And wasn't that guy in this thread saying it was just something he threw out there on the last minute and the person writing the article ran with it, because it makes good news. And at any rate, not everything everyone does should be worth reporting on.
Not from what I can see in the Eurogamer article. That was pretty much the basis of the interview.

Lieju said:
Which is exactly what I meant with 'manufactured controversy'. Report on something that's not a problem, giving it media coverage, then angry people respond to it and you can report on them, as well as people who feel their views were misrepresented.
See, that's the issue: it involves lying about something to get a reaction. You can't call attention to something that doesn't exist without lying about it existing.

Lieju said:
And people can take advantage of this to get publicity, that's why organizations like PETA do all the crazy crap they do.
That's more the toddler mindset of 'all attention is good attention.' There's no reaction to the outrage: it's just trying to elicit outrage for the sake of itself.

Lieju said:
I definitely never accused anyone of conspiracy, even if the dev was lying to the press, that wouldn't be a conspiracy. Conspiracy kinda means there is a group of people banding together to break the law or rules.
Erm...that's more the idea behind a "conspiracy theory" than conspiracy. The latter just means that you planned to do something before you did it. It doesn't even need to be in a group.