Skyrim, level-scaling, and you.

[BrionJames]

I am pleased that they are not using fucking level scaling. when I first pop into a game I shouldn't be able to fight and kill demons and elementals right off the bat. It doesn't make any sense to be able to at that point. Plus there's nothing more annoying than being level 30 and having to fight a fucking normal ass goblin for five minutes.

 

[badgersprite]

I heard it scales to you once you enter an area, so it will be challenging the first time you enter, say, a big dungeon, but when you go back, they won't start spawning higher level enemies, or the notorious bandits in Daedric armor.

So it's good. It should always feel consistent, and it shouldn't break flow, which is the important thing. The best part of Oblivion was getting lost in the world, so anything that makes it feel more immersive is a plus.

 

[Googenstien]

This news of level scaling has taken this game off my radar.. level scaling is a horrible idea in RPGs that try to be any sort of serious. Every mob is killable in any area at any level, regardless of skill level, weapons and spells. Just find a mob and shoot it 5 times and its dead

 

[Kortney]

It'll do.

But if I feel rail-roaded to certain areas at any point...I'll fucking gut someone.

I want to be able to go anywhere in the world without running into something way out of my league.

Fucking Daedric Ruins in Morrowind.

Oh hey, you're level 3!

STORM ATRONACH, DAEDROTH.

So you want the game to hold your hand through the whole way, instead? Not having level scaling like this would be like if you could defeat Kefka at level 1 in Final Fantasy VI or something. Strong enemies are strong, you are not. Since when did we gamers become such a bunch of wimps who can't take a little bit of a challenge? (Not saying that to YOU specifically, more a question in general since I've heard so many say the same thing in the past)

On the contrary, I enjoy a challenge. I just hate when they give you an open game world, and then DISCOURAGE exploration until you return at a higher level. I'm at the dungeon now, I want to have a chance in hell at beating it. A Daedroth vs Me and my Iron Broadsword is not even remotely fair, especially when that's only OUTSIDE the dungeon. Lords know what I run into inside!

It's a roleplaying game. Daedra are incredibly powerful beings in TES universe. It would be stupid if you could beat them at level three. You must be powerful to beat them - so stay the hell away from there until you can. It wouldn't make much sense within the universe of the game if a level 3 could beat a daedra would it?

I hate level scaling. It's immersion breaking, pandering nonsense. It ruined Oblivion. I don't mind level scaling like how it was in Fallout 3 or New Vegas. Much less noticeable, so I guess I'm happy.

This news of level scaling has taken this game off my radar.. level scaling is a horrible idea in RPGs that try to be any sort of serious. Every mob is killable in any area at any level, regardless of skill level, weapons and spells. Just find a mob and shoot it 5 times and its dead

The level scaling in Fallout wasn't like that at all. It will be fine.

 

[Danpascooch]

Overall complaint and problem? Do tell, because in fact it's not technically ignoring it, if you haven't FUCKING MENTIONED IT ONCE! It's called "not being able to read your mind"

This entire time you've been talking about how you can beat the game at level two, if that's part of some larger complaint you need to VOCALIZE that for Christ's sake.

You were the one talking about context, so I assumed you had read... the thread.

Whatever, if you're not going to tell me what the bigger complaint is in a way more specific than "poor level design" then I don't have time for this crap

 

[tikalal]

In an open world game you should definitely have scaling. The difficulty should rise as you level and gain more abilities/stuff. You should be forced to use that stuff and what you've learned to the best of your ability in order to remain competitive with what is scaled to you.

It makes much more sense than one area arbitrarily raping you because you haven't reached the magical number they designed it for.

The Death Claws in New Vegas didn't feel arbitrary because they're supposed to be very powerful. A lot of you guys seem to be arguing that you should have one or the other, end of story. The level difference should mean something when it makes sense, and never when it doesn't. Going 100% with one or the other is always going to break immersion because the game code reveals itself one way or another by annoying the player with some stupid limitation on the game that isn't intuitive at all.

 

[spartandude]

Oblivion's level scaling was bullshit. It should die in a fire.

/thread

oblivion's syetem (while i spent too much time playing oblivion) was broken it just didnt give me a sense of victory

I remember in morrowind, at level 1 when treking to balmora (sp) i walked instead of fast travelling and along the way i found a highwayman, i refused to pay but i couldnt ever defeat him at level 1, after 3 tries i had to pay him the money which made me feel like a failiure, 3 levels later i went back and chopped his head off!
i felt like i had achieved something, that i was now actually strong and was able to take on the world (as long as it wasnt a dungeon). oblivion lacked this. i really wish that the next one doesnt or at least the level scaling is much more improved.

 

[spartandude]

In an open world game you should definitely have scaling. The difficulty should rise as you level and gain more abilities/stuff. You should be forced to use that stuff and what you've learned to the best of your ability in order to remain competitive with what is scaled to you.

It makes much more sense than one area arbitrarily raping you because you haven't reached the magical number they designed it for.

The Death Claws in New Vegas didn't feel arbitrary because they're supposed to be very powerful. A lot of you guys seem to be arguing that you should have one or the other, end of story. The level difference should mean something when it makes sense, and never when it doesn't. Going 100% with one or the other is always going to break immersion because the game code reveals itself one way or another by annoying the player with some stupid limitation on the game that isn't intuitive at all.

as you level up and become stronger the challenge should increase? im not sure i follow you on that one.

i have to say i actually disagree with your post. having a dungeon or a region filled with high level monsters actually creates imersion. if i can go anywhere from the word go and if the game got harder as i leveled up, why would i want to level up at all?

 

[Critical_Sneeze]

...
Whatever, if you're not going to tell me what the bigger complaint is in a way more specific than "poor level design" then I don't have time for this crap

I only skim read your conversation and even I know what his complaint is. I like to sum it up like this.

By the game's definitions, someone who is an "apprentice" of near enough everything (like, say, sword fighting) should not be able to swing said sword and save the world. Surely it makes sense that someone who's crap at fighting can't defeat those heavily armoured, highly skilled fellas from the hell pit.

 

[tikalal]

In an open world game you should definitely have scaling. The difficulty should rise as you level and gain more abilities/stuff. You should be forced to use that stuff and what you've learned to the best of your ability in order to remain competitive with what is scaled to you.

It makes much more sense than one area arbitrarily raping you because you haven't reached the magical number they designed it for.

The Death Claws in New Vegas didn't feel arbitrary because they're supposed to be very powerful. A lot of you guys seem to be arguing that you should have one or the other, end of story. The level difference should mean something when it makes sense, and never when it doesn't. Going 100% with one or the other is always going to break immersion because the game code reveals itself one way or another by annoying the player with some stupid limitation on the game that isn't intuitive at all.

as you level up and become stronger the challenge should increase? im not sure i follow you on that one.

i have to say i actually disagree with your post. having a dungeon or a region filled with high level monsters actually creates imersion. if i can go anywhere from the word go and if the game got harder as i leveled up, why would i want to level up at all?

It should increase at the same difficulty curve you would get from any other game, except for places where much stronger enemies make sense. I still feel like a lot of people want either only scaling with the exact same difficulty throughout the game, or pure levelling based mostly on arbitrary things.

My point is that they should be combined.

 

[spartandude]

In an open world game you should definitely have scaling. The difficulty should rise as you level and gain more abilities/stuff. You should be forced to use that stuff and what you've learned to the best of your ability in order to remain competitive with what is scaled to you.

It makes much more sense than one area arbitrarily raping you because you haven't reached the magical number they designed it for.

The Death Claws in New Vegas didn't feel arbitrary because they're supposed to be very powerful. A lot of you guys seem to be arguing that you should have one or the other, end of story. The level difference should mean something when it makes sense, and never when it doesn't. Going 100% with one or the other is always going to break immersion because the game code reveals itself one way or another by annoying the player with some stupid limitation on the game that isn't intuitive at all.

as you level up and become stronger the challenge should increase? im not sure i follow you on that one.

i have to say i actually disagree with your post. having a dungeon or a region filled with high level monsters actually creates imersion. if i can go anywhere from the word go and if the game got harder as i leveled up, why would i want to level up at all?

It should increase at the same difficulty curve you would get from any other game, except for places where much stronger enemies make sense. I still feel like a lot of people want either only scaling with the exact same difficulty throughout the game, or pure levelling based mostly on arbitrary things.

My point is that they should be combined.

oh i get what your saying now

tbh i still disagree with it, im one of the people that feel its should be no level scaling, but il take a fallout system over oblivions without second thoughts

 

[Altorin]

I don't really care how I level up, I just like to play the game. What do people not like about Level Scaling though??

Apparently, RPGs shouldn't give the player a consistent challenge, and you should be an over-powered bastard at the end game, or something. Grinding through tough spots should also totally be an option, too. And Bandits look silly in Glass Armor or whatever.

My issue with the scaling levels in oblivion is that it is NOT a consistent challenge.
My experience with the game was that I was enjoying it so much, and taking my sweet ass time that by the time I got to around level 60, the main quest was simply impossible -period- with the character I tried to build...never did actually finish the game.
Meanwhile, my dad who is an extremely unskilled gamer whizzed his way past the main story and final boss at level 6.
Level fucking 6.

The fact that the game seemed to be punishing me for playing the game more seemed wrong. It's not that I wanted to be an overpowered bastard, on the contrary I love a good challenge. But when you level your character up so high that the game becomes irreversibly impossible, there is a problem (coming from a guy who has finished 2 playthroughs of Demon's Souls).

Level 60? Is it even possible to get that high without modding/cheating?

(BTW, there is a difficulty slider)

you can get to about 300 if you try to go for max level.

Basic how to

- get all of your skills to 100 before you sleep (make sure that you do the anvil mage's quest prior to starting your grind, it requires a sleep) - when I did this, I did ALL of my levelling before leaving the original sewers (yup, spent 13 hours in there training skills), was a bad idea as I gained a level and lost an extra half level through training because of it.
- Make 3 spells that lower one of your major skills by 100 for 5 seconds
- Use said spells to lower your skill to or below zero
- Train it 5 times at a trainer
- Sleep

Once your skill breaks 255 it will reset to 1. Level it manually, and then repeat the earlier process

That alone will get you to 80-100 iirc, and that's completely legit. The next part is a bit less so.

Later, you can get books that raise your skills. There are a couple glitches in the game that can allow you to dupe them (and they aren't the normal dupe methods, as the books cannot be dropped) Dupe yourself up a bunch of them, and just go to town... honestly, you can get your level as high as you want this way, but once you start, I don't think you can dupe it anymore, so once you stop, that's where your level is.

Also note that as soon as your stats all reach 100, you won't level anymore, regardless of your skill raises.

 

[Fooz]

well seeing as i love Fallout im looking forward to it, i absolutely love games like oblivion and fallout

 

[Omnific One]

Irrelevant update: Apparently we are getting the first gameplay video by April.

 

[steph01a]

Oblivion is about more than just 'leveling' and killing everything you run into. I like it for the side-quests and clothing mods (not armor) .. don't wear armor. If I get in trouble with something I use my invisibility spell to hide and run away. If they can't see me they can't hurt me.

 

[Danpascooch]

...
Whatever, if you're not going to tell me what the bigger complaint is in a way more specific than "poor level design" then I don't have time for this crap

I only skim read your conversation and even I know what his complaint is. I like to sum it up like this.

By the game's definitions, someone who is an "apprentice" of near enough everything (like, say, sword fighting) should not be able to swing said sword and save the world. Surely it makes sense that someone who's crap at fighting can't defeat those heavily armoured, highly skilled fellas from the hell pit.

And how is that somehow a grander more involved complain then "you shouldn't beat the game at level 2"

That's just rephrasing the exact same complaint, he said I "ignored" the larger complant.

 

[Danpascooch]

I don't really care how I level up, I just like to play the game. What do people not like about Level Scaling though??

Apparently, RPGs shouldn't give the player a consistent challenge, and you should be an over-powered bastard at the end game, or something. Grinding through tough spots should also totally be an option, too. And Bandits look silly in Glass Armor or whatever.

My issue with the scaling levels in oblivion is that it is NOT a consistent challenge.
My experience with the game was that I was enjoying it so much, and taking my sweet ass time that by the time I got to around level 60, the main quest was simply impossible -period- with the character I tried to build...never did actually finish the game.
Meanwhile, my dad who is an extremely unskilled gamer whizzed his way past the main story and final boss at level 6.
Level fucking 6.

The fact that the game seemed to be punishing me for playing the game more seemed wrong. It's not that I wanted to be an overpowered bastard, on the contrary I love a good challenge. But when you level your character up so high that the game becomes irreversibly impossible, there is a problem (coming from a guy who has finished 2 playthroughs of Demon's Souls).

Level 60? Is it even possible to get that high without modding/cheating?

(BTW, there is a difficulty slider)

you can get to about 300 if you try to go for max level.

Basic how to

- get all of your skills to 100 before you sleep (make sure that you do the anvil mage's quest prior to starting your grind, it requires a sleep) - when I did this, I did ALL of my levelling before leaving the original sewers (yup, spent 13 hours in there training skills), was a bad idea as I gained a level and lost an extra half level through training because of it.
- Make 3 spells that lower one of your major skills by 100 for 5 seconds
- Use said spells to lower your skill to or below zero
- Train it 5 times at a trainer
- Sleep

Once your skill breaks 255 it will reset to 1. Level it manually, and then repeat the earlier process

That alone will get you to 80-100 iirc, and that's completely legit. The next part is a bit less so.

Later, you can get books that raise your skills. There are a couple glitches in the game that can allow you to dupe them (and they aren't the normal dupe methods, as the books cannot be dropped) Dupe yourself up a bunch of them, and just go to town... honestly, you can get your level as high as you want this way, but once you start, I don't think you can dupe it anymore, so once you stop, that's where your level is.

Also note that as soon as your stats all reach 100, you won't level anymore, regardless of your skill raises.

Using spells to lower your skill temporarily so that you can raise it does not sound legit to me, it sounds like a total glitch.

Is it possible to get 60 just by training your major skills up to 100 with no tricks? Because if someone is exploiting glitches, they shouldn't complain that they break the game.

 

[stygN]

Keep it like it was in Morrowind I'd say..

I felt it was nice to get beaten up every once in a while : )

Just save more often!

I played through Oblivion some months ago, and I barely bothered to save..

And you also drown in good gear in oblivion.. So, after a certain point every bandit have glass or deadric? That's silly...

 

[maturin]

And you also drown in good gear in oblivion.. So, after a certain point every bandit have glass or deadric? That's silly...

It's like *twitch* Fable, where the entire population of the world ages along with your character, with no new people being born, so they can be in the proper demographic for marriage.

 

[ultrachicken]

I'm not so much worried about level scaling as I am about combat.